How does a FF work in crop mode?

Kunzite · 12-24-2015, 10:23 AM

I wasn't criticizing; I was making sure we* all agree on the basics. Stating them clearly helps avoid an unnecessarily long and confusing debate, or misunderstandings by a 3rd party.

* Me, comproc and everyone else who might happen to read this.

You are perfectly right that we're not usually referring to the actual angles of view, instead using shorthands for e.g. "the angle of view given by a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera". Knowing the actual angle of view (its value in degrees or radians) is useless most of the time, what we want is to eyeball the angle of view given by a certain lens, on a format we're familiar with; I'm not disputing, but agreeing with this.

As long as we keep in mind the underlying mechanism and that it's about the angle of view, all is fine. The trouble begins when we don't have this separation in mind, when we're confused about what either focal length or the format does. Unfortunately, the "equivalent" notation's role is precisely to blur things.

Last edited by Kunzite; 12-24-2015 at 10:33 AM.

Dave L · 12-24-2015, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Now, what is the difference from having an APS-C frame on an APS-C camera, or a same-sized APS-C frame on a FF camera? Yep, none. It's as if you replaced the FF sensor with an APS-C one. So you will get the same angle of view.

The same thing if you crop the FF frame to APS-C size, in post.

Yes, and that means I will probably use FF mode on all my prime lenses where I cannot easily change position. Anything I don't like around the edges I will just crop out in post production, and I can envisage situations where I will want to keep more than the APS-C crop area even when using an 'unsuitable' DA lens. I hope there is viewfinder indication of the APS-C area though.

The FF will also effectively endow existing prime lenses with greater 'zoom' properties, using P-P cropping as required - less lens changing, which can be important in many situations. Many photos do not need to be of the maximum possible technical quality in order to be good photos. I'm looking forward to the additional flexibility this camera will bring!

comprock · 12-25-2015, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Class A

I believe that associating an angle of view with a lens (as opposed to a focal length) would be more helpful -- as for instance a ~43mm FF lens and an ~28mm APS-C lens would both be referred to as 53.4° (diagonal) angle of view lenses, highlighting the fact that both lenses fulfill the same role on their respective formats -- but this is not the approach the vast majority of photographers grew up. Hence, expressing the angle of view with respect to a known format size, is useful.

Thank you Class A and Kunzite, your responses do help. The angle of view especially makes sense to me and supplements understanding crop factor based upon 35 mm equivalency.

Now, if the Pentax full frame would just get here. It's going to be too late come April for my February and March shoots in the Middle East and South East Asia. Wah…

LoneWolf · 12-27-2015, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Albermarle

Just wonder if anyone can describe how they believe the FF will work in crop mode.

The following from Photo Rumours on Pentaxe's latest teaser gives a simple explanation.

New Pentax full frame DSLR camera teaser | Photo Rumors

LoneWolf

**Digitalis** · 12-27-2015, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

Pentax is pretty much using Nikon as a template in many things they do and the D750 must be their natural point of reference for their full frame project. The one to match and beat.

Nikon is a good place to start, unlike Cannon who flat out prevent EF-S lenses from being used on full format EF cameras. As for beating Nikon, perhaps in the method of execution this might be possible, but fundamentally Nikon has done a good job as things are.

2351HD · 12-28-2015, 01:11 PM

Well I have not seen a mirror yet in any of the FF photos they have shown.

Perhaps the camera does not even have an OVF but instead it has a large EVF. This would make sense of all this FF and DA lens stuff they are talking about.

How awesome would a FF Pentax with an EVF be, sign me up!

Kunzite · 12-28-2015, 01:15 PM

Nonsense. Ricoh Imaging was clear from the beginning, this is a K-mount FF DSLR. Listen to them!

2351HD · 12-28-2015, 03:02 PM - **1 Like**

Well considering it's taken them this long, they are making a mistake if no EVF. Mirrors are dead.

And that's coming from a 645z user too.

**clackers** · 12-28-2015, 03:06 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by 2351HD

Well considering it's taken them this long, they are making a mistake if no EVF. Mirrors are dead.

DSLRs still outsell MILCs, by a long way, 2351HD.

My OVF is just fine, thank you! :-)

Kunzite · 12-28-2015, 03:14 PM

Indeed. The mistake would be to listen to the mirrorless fans, ignoring their loyal user base.

Kenntak · 12-28-2015, 04:03 PM

It looks like the after the FF is released, the doom talk will then all revolve around Pentax not having an adequate mirrorless camera. It never ends.

falconeye · 12-28-2015, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by 2351HD

Mirrors are dead.

Yeah, but that's normal for dead matter.

Seriously though, I think the mirrorless hype is already coming to an end and markets meet reality. Mirrorless will slowly grow in market share for a couple of years to come and coexist with mirrors. None of them is dead.

Personally, I think that this will continue until around 2020.

In 2020, Tokyo broadcasts the Olympic Games and almost all vendors are in Tokyo too. And 8k cameras will be the de-facto standard by that time for footage of the Games (this has been reported by various sources).

An 30fps 8k still camera will be a game changer. It will be challenging for post production software to maintain post production efficiency but new concepts are discussed already.

This will mark a transition as was the transition from B&W to color photography. Didn't kill B&W photography but pushed technology to an entirely new level.

IMHO, it will be at and after this point in time only that EVF cameras will take over the serious market.

**monochrome** · 12-28-2015, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

In 2020, Tokyo broadcasts the Olympic Games and almost all vendors are in Tokyo too. And 8k cameras will be the de-facto standard by that time for footage of the Games (this has been reported by various sources).

That is the driving environmental factor! Same as print media for sports in the 70's drove the F1 and F1n (and Nikon).

**Digitalis** · 12-28-2015, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

An 30fps 8k still camera will be a game changer. It will be challenging for post production software to maintain post production efficiency but new concepts are discussed already.

At that point I think hardware solutions like RED Rocket being more common, I don't see NVIDIA, AMD, INTEL or MATROX sitting on the wayside on this. I expect they will come out with similar dedicated consumer oriented hardware solutions making use of enhanced parallel processing capability through using the increasingly common SLI and Crossfire interfaces.

Originally posted by falconeye

This will mark a transition as was the transition from B&W to color photography

Really? I think that is going a bit far.

2351HD · 12-28-2015, 07:13 PM

It doesn't matter what outsells, sure mirror cameras outsell, but I just can't see a future for cameras having a mirror assembly.

Once the tech comes on board and works better, there won't be a need for it.

And I must add here, I don't for a second like the A7r series one bit, too small, to difficult to use because of size and button placement etc. what I am saying is why can we not have a full frame camera body like a future K1 that has an EVF rather than an OVF?

My 645z is awesome but would be another level If it had and EVF, or at least a bolt on one.

12-24-2015, 10:27 AM	#17
Dave L Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 306	Originally posted by Kunzite Now, what is the difference from having an APS-C frame on an APS-C camera, or a same-sized APS-C frame on a FF camera? Yep, none. It's as if you replaced the FF sensor with an APS-C one. So you will get the same angle of view. The same thing if you crop the FF frame to APS-C size, in post. Yes, and that means I will probably use FF mode on all my prime lenses where I cannot easily change position. Anything I don't like around the edges I will just crop out in post production, and I can envisage situations where I will want to keep more than the APS-C crop area even when using an 'unsuitable' DA lens. I hope there is viewfinder indication of the APS-C area though. The FF will also effectively endow existing prime lenses with greater 'zoom' properties, using P-P cropping as required - less lens changing, which can be important in many situations. Many photos do not need to be of the maximum possible technical quality in order to be good photos. I'm looking forward to the additional flexibility this camera will bring! Last edited by Dave L; 12-24-2015 at 10:38 AM.

12-28-2015, 06:19 PM	#29
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by falconeye An 30fps 8k still camera will be a game changer. It will be challenging for post production software to maintain post production efficiency but new concepts are discussed already. At that point I think hardware solutions like RED Rocket being more common, I don't see NVIDIA, AMD, INTEL or MATROX sitting on the wayside on this. I expect they will come out with similar dedicated consumer oriented hardware solutions making use of enhanced parallel processing capability through using the increasingly common SLI and Crossfire interfaces. Originally posted by falconeye This will mark a transition as was the transition from B&W to color photography Really? I think that is going a bit far. Last edited by Digitalis; 12-28-2015 at 06:26 PM.

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12-24-2015, 10:23 AM	#16
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I wasn't criticizing; I was making sure we* all agree on the basics. Stating them clearly helps avoid an unnecessarily long and confusing debate, or misunderstandings by a 3rd party. * Me, comproc and everyone else who might happen to read this. You are perfectly right that we're not usually referring to the actual angles of view, instead using shorthands for e.g. "the angle of view given by a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera". Knowing the actual angle of view (its value in degrees or radians) is useless most of the time, what we want is to eyeball the angle of view given by a certain lens, on a format we're familiar with; I'm not disputing, but agreeing with this. As long as we keep in mind the underlying mechanism and that it's about the angle of view, all is fine. The trouble begins when we don't have this separation in mind, when we're confused about what either focal length or the format does. Unfortunately, the "equivalent" notation's role is precisely to blur things. Last edited by Kunzite; 12-24-2015 at 10:33 AM.

12-25-2015, 03:05 PM	#18
comprock Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Portland, Montreal, Menton, Dubai, Pondicherry, Singapore, Kaohsiung, Coupeville Photos: Gallery Posts: 529	Originally posted by Class A I believe that associating an angle of view with a lens (as opposed to a focal length) would be more helpful -- as for instance a ~43mm FF lens and an ~28mm APS-C lens would both be referred to as 53.4° (diagonal) angle of view lenses, highlighting the fact that both lenses fulfill the same role on their respective formats -- but this is not the approach the vast majority of photographers grew up. Hence, expressing the angle of view with respect to a known format size, is useful. Thank you Class A and Kunzite, your responses do help. The angle of view especially makes sense to me and supplements understanding crop factor based upon 35 mm equivalency. Now, if the Pentax full frame would just get here. It's going to be too late come April for my February and March shoots in the Middle East and South East Asia. Wah…

12-27-2015, 09:19 AM	#19
LoneWolf Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 141	Originally posted by Albermarle Just wonder if anyone can describe how they believe the FF will work in crop mode. The following from Photo Rumours on Pentaxe's latest teaser gives a simple explanation. New Pentax full frame DSLR camera teaser \| Photo Rumors LoneWolf

12-27-2015, 09:26 AM	#20
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by falconeye Pentax is pretty much using Nikon as a template in many things they do and the D750 must be their natural point of reference for their full frame project. The one to match and beat. Nikon is a good place to start, unlike Cannon who flat out prevent EF-S lenses from being used on full format EF cameras. As for beating Nikon, perhaps in the method of execution this might be possible, but fundamentally Nikon has done a good job as things are.

12-28-2015, 01:11 PM	#21
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Well I have not seen a mirror yet in any of the FF photos they have shown. Perhaps the camera does not even have an OVF but instead it has a large EVF. This would make sense of all this FF and DA lens stuff they are talking about. How awesome would a FF Pentax with an EVF be, sign me up!

12-28-2015, 01:15 PM	#22
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Nonsense. Ricoh Imaging was clear from the beginning, this is a K-mount FF DSLR. Listen to them!

12-28-2015, 03:02 PM - 1 Like	#23
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Well considering it's taken them this long, they are making a mistake if no EVF. Mirrors are dead. And that's coming from a 645z user too.

12-28-2015, 03:06 PM - 1 Like	#24
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by 2351HD Well considering it's taken them this long, they are making a mistake if no EVF. Mirrors are dead. DSLRs still outsell MILCs, by a long way, 2351HD. My OVF is just fine, thank you! :-)

12-28-2015, 03:14 PM	#25
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Indeed. The mistake would be to listen to the mirrorless fans, ignoring their loyal user base.

12-28-2015, 04:03 PM	#26
Kenntak Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 198	It looks like the after the FF is released, the doom talk will then all revolve around Pentax not having an adequate mirrorless camera. It never ends.

12-28-2015, 05:58 PM	#27
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by 2351HD Mirrors are dead. Yeah, but that's normal for dead matter. Seriously though, I think the mirrorless hype is already coming to an end and markets meet reality. Mirrorless will slowly grow in market share for a couple of years to come and coexist with mirrors. None of them is dead. Personally, I think that this will continue until around 2020. In 2020, Tokyo broadcasts the Olympic Games and almost all vendors are in Tokyo too. And 8k cameras will be the de-facto standard by that time for footage of the Games (this has been reported by various sources). An 30fps 8k still camera will be a game changer. It will be challenging for post production software to maintain post production efficiency but new concepts are discussed already. This will mark a transition as was the transition from B&W to color photography. Didn't kill B&W photography but pushed technology to an entirely new level. IMHO, it will be at and after this point in time only that EVF cameras will take over the serious market.

12-28-2015, 06:12 PM	#28
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by falconeye In 2020, Tokyo broadcasts the Olympic Games and almost all vendors are in Tokyo too. And 8k cameras will be the de-facto standard by that time for footage of the Games (this has been reported by various sources). That is the driving environmental factor! Same as print media for sports in the 70's drove the F1 and F1n (and Nikon).

12-28-2015, 07:13 PM	#30
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	It doesn't matter what outsells, sure mirror cameras outsell, but I just can't see a future for cameras having a mirror assembly. Once the tech comes on board and works better, there won't be a need for it. And I must add here, I don't for a second like the A7r series one bit, too small, to difficult to use because of size and button placement etc. what I am saying is why can we not have a full frame camera body like a future K1 that has an EVF rather than an OVF? My 645z is awesome but would be another level If it had and EVF, or at least a bolt on one.