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08-25-2015, 03:26 AM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
cause sony keeps releasing new and updated products - they are even working on a sensor that's gonna work in a similar manner to sigma's foveon x3 sensor



I'm sure Mattox is just trolling, and it looks like some people fell for it.
Maybe. But I would agree with him in this respect. People talk about extremes too much in photography. I shoot a lot of landscape photography and what I need is not better iso 12,800, but better iso 50. I don't need a sharp f1.4 lens, but a lens that performs admirably at f8.

Obviously there are many other situations, but I think a lot of people who complain about poor high iso performance on APS-C cameras would do well to invest in a tripod (and carry it with them) or, figure out an external flash and use it.

08-25-2015, 06:21 AM - 2 Likes   #62
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This type of 'who has the newer gun' thread/argument don't make much sense to me.

The camera release cycle has Sony and Canon doing it in the early half of the year.
Then followed by Nikon on the later half, with m4/3 somewhere in between that.
Pentax follows in Oct usually.
That cycle just repeats itself.

This is followed by a knee jerk realization that my camera is no longer the 'winner' and in fact, I am now the loser.

So I should really move on to the next latest and greatest winner and then come back to tell everyone here that "I've jumped ship (via hyper drive in fact) and all you guys here are losers"


New cameras/lenses don't instantly make older ones become junk.
Just like new photos don't make the old ones toilet paper.


The lenses are already with me (whatever brand I already have).
Jumping to any brand costs (both monetarily, learning curve, etc) and I know its not going to be a drastic change to my photography (esp. with cameras already being very good nowadays)

Pentax makes some of the best smallish AF primes out there.
Together with the well featured and thought out camera, I do think its already better than any new other brand stuff for me.
Now, they just need to release it within my budget (around D750 price max for me)

Last edited by pinholecam; 08-25-2015 at 07:08 PM.
08-25-2015, 06:41 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fenwoodian Quote
Michael Reichmann is the founder of the LuminousLandscape.com . I expect that most of you are familiar with this website. I have a very high regard for Mr Reichmann, and I understand that his website is one of the most visited photography website on the Internet.

He recently reviewed the Sony A7RII. He compared it to his favorite medium format digital camera, the Pentax 645Z. In his review ( https://luminous-landscape.com/sony-a7rii-review-and-hands-on-report/ ) Michael says that the IQ of the Sony A7RII is very very close to the Pentax 645Z. He went on to say "Frankly, if I had to choose one over the other Id go with the A7RII."

Personally, I have no interest at all in switching to a Sony camera. I love my Pentax K3 and already have money saved up for the upcoming Pentax full frame.

My hope is that Pentax puts the back-illuminated 42.4-Megapixel CMOS sensor that's in the ony A7RII into their new full frame. Knowing how Pentax/Ricoh does a great job of camera design, I have no doubt that this sensor in the new Pentax full frame would be a match made in heaven.

Do you think there's any chance that this outstanding and class leading sensor might end up in the Pentax full frame?


Thanks,
Dave
I think there is a very good chance we see some version of the Sony 42MP sensor in the Ricoh FF body. Will it have 399 PDAF points on the sensor? Maybe not. Will it support 4K? Maybe not.
08-25-2015, 06:57 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I think there is a very good chance we see some version of the Sony 42MP sensor in the Ricoh FF body. Will it have 399 PDAF points on the sensor? Maybe not. Will it support 4K? Maybe not.
It's certainly supporting a 4k price tag. So if the question is can Pentax match the A7RII in a $2.5 k body, that's questionable, if the question is "could Pentac make a 4k body that would be better than the A7rII, I think the answer would be a resounding yes. But given that they have a 645z, why would they do that?

Sony has priced itself out of Pentax's likely competitive price point. I expect a year after release you'll be able to pick up the Pentax FF for around 2k.


Last edited by normhead; 08-25-2015 at 07:26 AM.
08-25-2015, 07:07 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratcheteer Quote
cause sony keeps releasing new and updated products - they are even working on a sensor that's gonna work in a similar manner to sigma's foveon x3 sensor

Ratcheteer: They already have the stepped sensor in the sony RX100 mark 4 EXR. It's not exactly like the foveon x3 sensor The sony stepped sensor has a set of pre-filters (one per color) in steps to filter out extraneous or distorted light. The Foveon X3 is the digital version of 35mm film with three layers of actual sensor material so it's not really the same. I explained it in more detail in another FF Pentax thread. Sony uses the EXR sensor in previous models but without the pre-filters, therefore there isn't any new sensor tech, just some minor problem fixes.

There hasn't been any real "leaps and bounds" in digital camera sensor tech since the foveon x3. Just some minor upgrades hyped up to sound like it's actually a huge improvement. Firmware programing upgrades have been more of the forefront of glitch fixes for a while now in order to make money for the least amount of R&D effort and cost.

From a R&D perspective the most performing tech is made long before the current tech in order to span out sales profits with less performing gear. For example the latest Intel or AMD processors were actually designed 5-10 years ago.

Technically you can give the pixel shift ability of the k-3 mark 2 to the K-3 mark one by upgrading the firmware and regain your built in flash, if Ricoh would allow it.

Last edited by Chippedoff; 08-25-2015 at 07:59 AM.
08-25-2015, 07:07 AM - 1 Like   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
People talk about extremes too much in photography.
It's surprising how many people claim to need ultra fast ISO or AF because they shoot in extreme conditions yet we very rarely, if ever, see any photos of these conditions.
08-25-2015, 07:42 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
It's surprising how many people claim to need ultra fast ISO or AF because they shoot in extreme conditions yet we very rarely, if ever, see any photos of these conditions.
People get mad at you if you ask to see the photos that demonstrate their need of a better camera. They'll say it's a matter of personal preference.

Now the funny thing is that, they put it out there , that they need shallower depth of field, or better high ISO performance or a faster burst mode or whatever.. but when you challenge them on why it's a personal preference.

Well, no dude, you put it out there, and at that instant it was no longer a matter of personal preference but a subject of discussion. Personal preferences are no longer personal once stated on a public forum. They are now public personal preferences. To post such stuff without a technical explanation with examples the reasons for is just posturing.

And the typical comeback is in so many words "I have the right to put up my chest and crow if i want." For some, the forum is a place to tell folks they have photographic prowess they don't with statements like "APS_c doesn't give me shallow enough DoF or a fast enough frame rate" or whatever, when they have no actual images that show they've come anywhere close to pushing the limits of the camera they own.

The fact that you buy a camera that has a fantastic frame rate, doesn't mean you'll ever put yourself in a situation where it would actually benefit your photography.
The fact that you buy an FF with an ƒ1.2 lens doesn't mean you will ever take a pleasing narrow DoF image.
The fact that you think you need those things does't mean you would actually use those things, or even know what it would take to use those things.

Of course, there were also many previous forum members , a few, who actually posted the image to demonstrate that they'd probably be happy in a different format or whatever, and who have happily gone on their merry ways with our blessing. And I have happily looked at their work and encouraged them to make the move.

Some people will actually be better served changing systems for any number of reasons, and that will be true for any system ever made. There just is no "one size is best for all" system. And that's probably the only reason we tolerate the posers, just on the odd chance they might be on to something, as unlikely as that might be if they can't show us images that demonstrate their need. Most people who show us pictures, get lots of advice on what they're doing wrong. And if you're doing something wrong you can change systems.. but you're still be doing something wrong.

A more honest approach would be a simple question. 'I'm having trouble achieving this or this, what can I do." There are enough experienced photographers on here that if changing systems is part of the answer they'll be told that. That's much better than claiming you need an upgrade and being told "well, no, maybe you don't."

Last edited by normhead; 08-25-2015 at 07:47 AM.
08-25-2015, 07:50 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by patarok Quote
He recently reviewed the Sony A7RII. He compared it to his favorite medium format digital camera, the Pentax 645Z. In his review ( https://luminous-landscape.com/sony-a7rii-review-and-hands-on-report/ ) Michael says that the IQ of the Sony A7RII is very very close to the Pentax 645Z. He went on to say "Frankly, if I had to choose one over the other Id go with the A7RII."
I like the part he said that Sony expected to be nr. 2 in a couple of years. That leaves room for the stated ambition of Ricoh to be nr. 1 in the long run.

08-25-2015, 07:55 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
It's surprising how many people claim to need ultra fast ISO or AF because they shoot in extreme conditions yet we very rarely, if ever, see any photos of these conditions.
That is easy to explain, I for one think that my K5 has a big problem with AF in dim conditions.

So, do I have loads of pictures out of focus? No I don't. I delete them, and I have deleted lots of them.
08-25-2015, 08:13 AM - 1 Like   #70
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Here (Световна купа по художествена гимнастика "DUNDEE WORLD CUP" - СОФИЯ 2015) photos with "moving" are made with Pentax K-3 and Pentax 645z approximately 50/50% (sorry, language is Bulgarian)

Just for demo two of them (one is with K-3 other 645z):



08-25-2015, 08:16 AM - 1 Like   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
That is easy to explain, I for one think that my K5 has a big problem with AF in dim conditions.

So, do I have loads of pictures out of focus? No I don't. I delete them, and I have deleted lots of them.
SO what is your reason for believing if you had a camera with better high ISO performance, you'd like the results? How do you know you wouldn't delete just as many. The issue is not in your ability to criticize what is wrong, what's wrong is the belief that you'd have different results with something else. Everyone deletes lots of pictures, I probably keep one of 10, that doesn't mean I'd do better with different camera.

from APS-c to FF there is about a one stop difference in high ISO performance. The window where APS-c isn't good enough and FF would be better is very small. SO we'd still like to see some images where APS-c was tested, but not to the degree that FF wouldn't have been tested as well. If your APS-c image is about 3 stops short of being good, adding one stop (or even 2) going to FF doesn't help you, you're still two stops short. We don't want to see your tossed images, we want to see your keepers, that you think would be better shot with an upgrade. SO my first response to the above is, "are you using sub ƒ2 glass, because there is lots of it available for your K-5 and the 50 1.8 is quite inexpensive. No sub ƒ2 glasses, don't complain to us about trouble locking focus i

The issue isn't whether or not some folks can improve their photography with an upgrade in some area. The question is, is their photography close enough to the technical abilities of the next upgrade to make switch worth while.

Obviously, someone who does all their shooting indoors in available light or in dark alleyways, is going to be happier with a camera that performs well at high ISO. IF we are going to be part of the discussion, we'd like to know that you're that guy before we recommend paying a premium for a camera with that extra stop or two of high ISO performance.

But we are also going to think you weren't so smart investing in Pentax in the first place. Look through all the literature. No where is any Pentax camera recommended as best in low light, or fast AF performance. SO right off the bat, you're a guy who doesn't do his research. Second, you're asking us for comment. Between these two things... forgive us if we might be a little sceptical of how accurately you present your actual needs.

And in all probablility, if you have no keepers using any system, you're probably making more than a few mistakes in your technique.

The differences between camera systems tend to be greatly magnified.

SO do you really believe there are cameras that don't have problems with AF in dim conditions?
I've stood side by side with Canon pro shooters shooting with 2.8 lenses, that couldn't lock focus, when I was just shooting away.. with my K-5 plus 50 FA 50 ƒ1.7. And I had a pretty near 100% keeper rate, It was so dark I saw detail in the pictures I couldn't see in the viewfinder. Locking focus is a lot more than just which camera system are you using.

No sub ƒ2 glass? Don't even make that complaint. You have to buy appropriate glass for what you are shooting, no matter what system you own.

The guys who I think need to explore "extra" whatever, are the guys who are producing excellent images with what they have...nad that extra stop of performance is going to take them right over the top. Guys who can't get close to what they want with what they have... I'm less enthusiastic about their prospects.

Last edited by normhead; 08-25-2015 at 09:11 AM.
08-25-2015, 08:37 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
That is easy to explain, I for one think that my K5 has a big problem with AF in dim conditions.

So, do I have loads of pictures out of focus? No I don't. I delete them, and I have deleted lots of them.
You are probably right. The K5 II and K3 both do a lot better in low light conditions than the K5.

I wouldn't say there aren't reasons to want better auto focus or better high iso. I just think there are plenty of folks who aren't maximizing their current gear. If you shoot sports, or rock bands, or even wildlife, you will take every little bit you can get. But I doubt everyone complaining shoots those things.
08-25-2015, 08:37 AM   #73
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I don't think this has been mentioned yet. The A7RII uses lossy compression on raw files, continuing a Sony tradition. The Pentax FF is still an unknown but the Pentax tradition on higher tier cameras is to use lossless 14-bit files. Lossy compression limits post-processing. You can't brighten deep shadows as much and you get more noise.

I therefore expect the Pentax FF to be a better camera for me(*) than the A7RII. I do a lot of my photography in Manhattan where sunny days give deep shadows from buildings. I also do a lot of astrophotography and appreciate the full 14-bit DNG file for stacking.
08-25-2015, 08:47 AM   #74
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I hope that if they do end up using the K-3 body for the FF that they don't incorporate the GPS. The popup flash replacing GPS unit has already proven to be a rather large blunder including the recall on somewhere near 11,000 or so units at the customers expense. Pentax just upgrade the firmware for the k-3 mark 1 for pixel shift and astral tracking and be done with the Mark-2.
08-25-2015, 09:12 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I shoot a lot of landscape photography and what I need is not better iso 12,800, but better iso 50.
This absolutely. I wouldn't at all mind the option of 25 even. At the very least, give us better performance within current constraints, rather than trying to push things to absurd levels. There was a time early in the US Navy surface-to-air missile program where the range and speed performance kept on getting better and better but reliability was godawful. They eventually clamped down and said no, no more work on performance increases until you fix the reliability problems.

Sony's tech is second to none, but I don't think they really picked up from Minolta (before it disappeared from the camera business) how to build a proper camera system. Sony's new releases will always keep the gear-heads happy, especially the ones who are sufficiently cashed-up to always get the latest and greatest, but I'm not sure its camera division really understands photographers or photography.
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