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08-25-2015, 09:14 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
People get mad at you if you ask to see the photos that demonstrate their need of a better camera.
I suspect they get annoyed with you because you're asking them to prove what they know you know already - that FF is about one stop better than APS-C. I'm sure you are also very well aware of the impossibility of creating an example 'proving' that one can be just good enough where the other one marginally fails, simply because yes, even if you manage to make the two shots truly equivalent (ultimately impossible, since one obviously needs two different lenses) - whether or not this is the case in the end is entirely based on personal opinion.

I, for one, often find myself in the position to be shooting ISOs at or higher than ISO 3200 (see examples I posted earlier). I am fully aware that moving to FF won't make them go from somewhat rough to squeaky clean, but I would most certainly welcome any SNR improvement I can get. Being able to use my <50mm focal length Taks at the FOVs they were originally designed for would be a very welcome bonus.


Last edited by Ikarus; 08-25-2015 at 09:33 AM.
08-25-2015, 09:20 AM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
SO what is your reason for believing if you had a camera with better high ISO performance, you'd like the results? How do you know you wouldn't delete just as many.
What a strange question.
But I bought a K10d when it was released and I loved it.When the K5 came out I bought that one too, and guess what, I shoot comfortable at a lot higher iso then I did with the K10d. Does that really surprise you?

The rest of your post is so wrong that I won't even touch it.
08-25-2015, 09:37 AM   #78
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And i suspect they get annoyed with me, because they claim to be into photography and i asked them to show me a picture. I guess we'll just have to differ on that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
The rest of your post is so wrong that I won't even touch it.
Ya, ya, and you are the god of right and wrong.

QuoteQuote:
But I bought a K10d when it was released and I loved it.When the K5 came out I bought that one too, and guess what, I shoot comfortable at a lot higher iso then I did with the K10d. Does that really surprise you?
I moved from a K20D to a K-5 largely because of dynamic range... and the amount of comfort with the K-5. And i can show you images that will demonstrate what I'm talking about. But am I surprised you feel more comfortable with a newer camera? Not at all. But, looking back at my K20D images I was comfortable shooting 800 ISO, and using my K-5 I was also comfortable shooting 800 ISO. So I guess we'll just have to leave it that our experiences are different.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ikarus Quote
I, for one, often find myself in the position to be shooting ISOs at or higher than ISO 3200 (see examples I posted earlier). I am fully aware that moving to FF won't make them go from somewhat rough to squeaky clean, but I would most certainly welcome any SNR improvement I can get. Being able to use my <50mm focal length Taks at the FOVs they were originally designed for would be a very welcome bonus.
I'm sure there are a lot of folks in your position. I just don't know any of them personally... many of us never have occasion to use 3200 ISO. But the vast majority of folks claiming to need higher ISO are not optimizing their APS-c systems. When I shoot BiFs high ISO can be helpful to maintain a high shutter speed. But the magnification and DoF APS-c gives me, means, I have functionally the same noise, at the same shutter speed. You get one stop better noise from the FF, but you lose it because you have to give up one stop of ISO to maintain your DoF.

SO, yes you get one stop better noise, by sacrificing one stop DoF. I guess you guys always shoot in circumstances where DoF doesn't matter.

Everyone wants to talk about what they think they might gain. No one wants to acknowledge what they have to give up to get it. But yes, going to an FF gives you the choice to sacrifice DoF for noise wide open, but that's a pretty rare circumstance where that would be a good thing. especially in low light and wide open, DOF is at a premium.

Last edited by normhead; 08-25-2015 at 10:17 AM.
08-25-2015, 10:07 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Ya, ya, and you are the god of right and wrong.
Sch, don't tell everyone.

08-25-2015, 10:10 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And i suspect they get annoyed with me, because they claim to be into photography and i asked them to show me a picture.
Let me get this straight - somebody not accepting your premise that a picture would actually prove a thing makes you put in question their passion for photography? Can you see why that makes it difficult for some to have an honest conversation with you?
08-25-2015, 10:15 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chippedoff Quote
They already have the stepped sensor in the sony RX100 mark 4 EXR
I'm referring to the tilted pixel version they are working on for full frame

QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
It's surprising how many people claim to need ultra fast ISO or AF because they shoot in extreme conditions yet we very rarely, if ever, see any photos of these conditions.
I shoot surfers now and then (about as extreme as i get) using a old canon t80 fitted with a 100-300mm f/5.6L + 1.4x teleconverter and tripod. it gets the job done. (yes its manual focus, yes its a film camera)

QuoteOriginally posted by Franc Quote
I like the part he said that Sony expected to be nr. 2 in a couple of years
sony has the right idea, why fight for number 1 spot when your main market is consumers not pro's
08-25-2015, 10:30 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ikarus Quote
somebody not accepting your premise that a picture would actually prove a thing makes you put in question their passion for photography?
Sorry , you got that wrong, you can argue with the point of view expressed but it's not mine. Try reading more carefully.
What I'm saying is descriptions of what people's are, aren't always correct. If I see a picture....I may be able to come up with alternate solutions, that don't involve changing formats, which should probably be the solution of last resort.

But then, I'm actually willing to help people with their issues. I'm not here posturing. I don't want anyone to prove anything. But that being said, if you claim you have a problem, and you can't show me an image that demonstrates that problem, well photography is about making images. If it doesn't show up in an image, it isn't a problem. Unless you actually can't take the image because of the problem. And if it's that severe, it's probably a technical problem that goes beyond the limits of photography. Not every problem can be solved, no matter what gear you purchase.

Hey we just read the forum and try and help out. If you just want to come and tell us you're so great you need a full frame, well I'm so great I need an 8x10 film camera. Anyone can play that game.
08-25-2015, 10:52 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
When I shoot BiFs high ISO can be helpful to maintain a high shutter speed. But the magnification and DoF APS-c gives me, means, I have functionally the same noise, at the same shutter speed. You get one stop better noise from the FF, but you lose it because you have to give up one stop of ISO to maintain your DoF.
That's if you don't want to use the equivalent focal length on FF, which, granted, makes you need a longer lens and the whole configuration more unwieldy. But the long lens case is just one application. At the wider side of normal, the aperture you need to maintain your FF DOF may not even be available on APS-C.

08-25-2015, 10:53 AM   #84
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Is it likely that the Pentax FF will have a more complete, perhaps 'better' (?) database of lens properties for SR, distortion, CA, etc?

I don't often do in-camera processing of any kind, but I might if the processor was fast enough and it saved me time (say, compared to Lightroom).

As for need/want/comparisons/yadda/yadda... I don't care. My older bodies are due for replacement / rotation anyway, so I'll likely get a FF. I was toying with the idea of the 645Z, but I have a film N, so no rush or pressure there to go a crop MF size.
08-25-2015, 11:06 AM   #85
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Is there any particular reason why the Pextax Full Frame should rival the Sony A7RII ? Whilst the Pentax obviously has to be very good if the only criteria are going to be those where the Sony is strong, high ISO and AF, surely the 'contest' is fixed.
08-25-2015, 11:09 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ikarus Quote
That's if you don't want to use the equivalent focal length on FF,
Well no, even if you use the equivalent focal length on FF. Using the equivalent focal length say 400 on APS_c and 600 on FF, using the same shutter speed, and aperture, you need to use a stop higher ISO on FF to match the DOF of APS-c.

Those things being assumed, a 24 MP 400mm1/1000s ƒ5.6 APS-c taken at 800 ISO will give you the same image as 600mm FF, taken at 1/1000s @ ƒ8 and 1600 ISO. If you keep the DoF the same, everything else is the same including noise.

The only way to get better noise performance with an FF is to sacrifice DoF. It may be a nice feature to have, but it's not without cost.

If you have a 3200 ISO image shot at ƒ4, on FF, shoot the same image @F2.8 on APS_c with the equivalent lens, and you have the same noise level. The FF advantage is when you are shooting wide open, sacrificing DoF for noise reduction. As long as you can open your APS-c system one stop and reduce your ISO, in this example from 3200 to 1600, you can get an equivalent image in APS-c.

Of course for images where you actually want narrow DoF, then FF is ahead of the game, but that is easily seen in one's photos and exif. It amazes me how many people proclaim FF superiority without even understanding all the parameters. They just repeat it like a mantra.

An FF camera is a better choice, if and only if, you need more resolution , or you shoot a lot of images less than one stop from the maximum aperture of your lenses. For everything else, equivalence rules.

I can't tell you how many times going through IR images, that the APS-c image was better than the comparable FF image, because IR shot all their images at the same ƒ-stop without regard to DoF. So the 200 ISO FF image might be better than the APS-c image in noise, but you can't see the difference or it's very minimal, but the APS-c image was better because of wider DoF, more of the test subject was in focus. By any real world measure, the APS-c image was the better image. That you will always get a better image using an FF, shooting the same image even at the same settings, is just a complete fallacy not bourn out by the study of the thousands of real world comparative images taken at Imaging Resources. Yes, you might get a better image, on average as an FF shooter, but they might be worse as well on average. It depends on how you shoot. The whole "of course every FF images has lower noise than any APS-c" is nonsense. Only if you compare apples to oranges.

Last edited by normhead; 08-25-2015 at 11:39 AM.
08-25-2015, 12:46 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's certainly supporting a 4k price tag.
Not really. Its cheap compared to the Canon 4K offerings. The Canon EOS 1Dc is an $8,000 camera and is no match for the Sony A7rII. The Sony A7rII is aimed directly at Canon and Canon users. For the 4K crowd, this camera is cheap. I'm pretty sure Sony isn't too worried about Ricoh at this point.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Pentac make a 4k body that would be better than the A7rII, I think the answer would be a resounding yes. But given that they have a 645z, why would they do that?
The 645z doesn't support 4K so not sure the connection. Ricoh will use the 42MP sensor because it wants to produce competitive products. Ultimately I think the 645 will return to a true 645 sensor like the competition. The 645z uses a 44mm x 33mm where Hassy uses a 53.7mm x 40.3mm. We might even see the return of true 645. Since Ricoh is probably planning on all the 645z users upgrading to a larger sensor 645 as prices drop, I don't think they are to worried about a 42MP FF sensor. These are two very different systems and the similar mega-pickles are not that important. My phone has a 20MP camera, does that mean it can replace a K-5? Obviously not.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Sony has priced itself out of Pentax's likely competitive price point. I expect a year after release you'll be able to pick up the Pentax FF for around 2k.
I doubt Sony spends much time worrying about Ricoh. Sony is focused on FF mirorless tech. Ricoh is focused on ????? Something other than FF mirrorless tech. Sony is going after a much larger market than Ricoh.
08-25-2015, 12:59 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I doubt Sony spends much time worrying about Ricoh. Sony is focused on FF mirorless tech. Ricoh is focused on ????? Something other than FF mirrorless tech. Sony is going after a much larger market than Ricoh.
Uhh... really?
08-25-2015, 01:15 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Possibly - but if the planned 645Z production has already been achieved, or monthly volume is already falling off, why wouldn't Pentax compete with itself?

Surely, if they don't, someone else will.
According to an interview on their own website dated this year, the 645z sales are above their capacity
08-25-2015, 01:31 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Uhh... really?
Yes. Really.
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