Can the Pextax Full Frame rival the outstanding Sony A7RII ?

rawr · 08-24-2015, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by kAAs

IF they want to make impact?

I think they want to do a minimum of three things in relation to their FF plans:

- make existing K-mount users - particularly those with long experience with the brand - happy;
- improve their credentials as a brand for photo professionals;
- make money.

Probably in that order.

I didn't add 'take over the world' to that list because I don't believe Ricoh have the resources, or the inclination, to do that in the camera market. Unlike Sony, for example.

normhead · 08-24-2015, 12:58 PM

I spenta bit of time at Imaging Resources looking at 645D and 645z compared to Sony A7RII images..the A7RII is impressive... especially at 51200 ISO the A7RII really shines compared to any of it's competition. The problem is those pictures are awful no matter what camera you use. SO you could say it produces better awful pictures.

Compared to the 645z at 6400 ISO the 645z shows more detail in the brush hairs. Look at the single strands of hair at the bottom. The A7RII strands become a mushy blur, the 645z strands remain distinct. This is a great camera, better in some ways that probably won't matter much, but still not up in 645z land.

Mattox · 08-24-2015, 01:04 PM

6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography. We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels

normhead · 08-24-2015, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Mattox

6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography. We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels

Reports have it that the 645z is quite useable up to 6400 ISO, I'm not understanding the issue.

This image from this thread shot at 1600 ISO, are you saying that's not photography?

With a K-3 I don't like shooting at over 640 ISO, but this completely depends on the camera involved. On my K-5 I'm happy shooting at 800 ISO.

Last edited by normhead; 08-24-2015 at 01:19 PM.

Chippedoff · 08-24-2015, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by normhead

I spenta bit of time at Imaging Resources looking at 645D and 645z compared to Sony A7RII images..the A7RII is impressive... especially at 51200 ISO the A7RII really shines compared to any of it's competition. The problem is those pictures are awful no matter what camera you use. SO you could say it produces better awful pictures.

Compared to the 645z at 6400 ISO the 645z shows more detail in the brush hairs. Look at the single strands of hair at the bottom. The A7RII strands become a mushy blur, the 645z strands remain distinct. This is a great camera, better in some ways that probably won't matter much, but still not up in 645z land.

Yes i mentioned this in the DR VS Mpix FF forum thread. Regular back lit sensors will produce a haze like effect at junction of contrast areas such as hair to back ground which end up bleeding into one color or the other. The Sony rx100 mark 4 has sensor pre filters (one per colour). Which seems to make a significant difference over the non filtered sensor models. I also tried holding a 58mm uv haze filter over the lens of a backlit sensor P&S camera and it did make a fair difference or improvement in clarity. So it doesn't matter if you get more mpix or DR if the sensor get's confused.

Also does any one actually know if this new FF pentax camera will be mirrorless or not? Most of the rumors i have heard are a little thin and quirky on the details.

normhead · 08-24-2015, 02:01 PM

Apart from between 30 and 40 MP , Pentax themselves have said very little.

mecrox · 08-24-2015, 02:49 PM

Rival in what way? IQ, very likely yes but that leaves many other things particulary lenses which are crucial. I once beat off a pack of feral dogs with an FE2. The dogs came off worse. I am sure I could do the same with a K3 but a Sony A series looks as if might not survive an encounter with a cupcake. How Sony can claim the A7RII is properly weather-sealed eludes me. Even so, without tiptop lenses and very good AF ....

btnapa · 08-24-2015, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Reports have it that the 645z is quite useable up to 6400 ISO, I'm not understanding the issue.

This image from this thread shot at 1600 ISO, are you saying that's not photography?

With a K-3 I don't like shooting at over 640 ISO, but this completely depends on the camera involved. On my K-5 I'm happy shooting at 800 ISO.

Hey Norm,

Thank you for reminding me of Nicholas' work. Fantastic images at any ISO!

---------- Post added 08-24-15 at 04:08 PM ----------

Originally posted by normhead

I spenta bit of time at Imaging Resources looking at 645D and 645z compared to Sony A7RII images..the A7RII is impressive... especially at 51200 ISO the A7RII really shines compared to any of it's competition. The problem is those pictures are awful no matter what camera you use. SO you could say it produces better awful pictures.

Compared to the 645z at 6400 ISO the 645z shows more detail in the brush hairs. Look at the single strands of hair at the bottom. The A7RII strands become a mushy blur, the 645z strands remain distinct. This is a great camera, better in some ways that probably won't matter much, but still not up in 645z land.

Norm,
The differences are there. Anyone who shoots the 645Z probably knows first hand. I am dying to get one but I have to sell my car and walk to work!! Sony is compelling because of the price point and other goodies it offers. Not being in a hurry to take the leap, I am gonna wait to see what the Pentax FF looks like.

Ikarus · 08-24-2015, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Mattox

We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels

There is a whole world of photography outside of the controlled studio environment. If you really want to be dogmatic about this, you are bound to be the one missing the shot more often than you'd like.

The one below is on a K-3 at 3200 ISO, 1/10s, handheld, and the one underneath at 4000 ISO, 300mm, f/6.3, 1/500s, also handheld. Could they have been better with some pro lighting? Sure, but that doesn't mean this isn't photography.

normhead · 08-24-2015, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by btnapa

Hey Norm,

I am gonna wait to see what the Pentax FF looks like.

There's a lot of us in that boat.

There's not a chance I can pay a cent over $2700, if I'm really lucky and nothing breaks before then. If it came in under $2400, I'd be out of this world crazy, happy. The A7rII is $4k, I can't go anywhere near that high.. 36 MP with pixel shifting might well kill the Sony for IQ on many of the images I take. And, I'm, always looking for the highest IQ possible at the best price.

So the question I have now is, with the A7rII at $4k, would I jump at a 645D at $3.5k if I had the money, and I could find one for that price?

Not yet?

How about $3k?

noelpolar · 08-24-2015, 08:24 PM

I'm pretty keen on a FF pentax..... but for non US residents the price may be a big stumbling block....$2200us looks like about $3k here now.... too much for me ..... by November I could get a Sony A7II for about $1400aussie here I'm guessing....

rawr · 08-24-2015, 09:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by noelpolar

by November I could get a Sony A7II for about $1400

You can get one now for just $1618, with their current cashback scheme. By November, given current currency fluctuations, prices may go the other way.

But then again, Sony is known for aggressive pricing, so A7II pricing may indeed go to $1400 in a few months.

This stuff (currency fluctuations, continuing aggressive pricing from Sony and Nikon, general deflation in Japan and the EU) creates a very difficult environment in which to give birth to an expensive Pentax FF.

noelpolar · 08-24-2015, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by rawr

This stuff (currency fluctuations, continuing aggressive pricing from Sony and Nikon, general deflation in Japan and the EU) creates a very difficult environment in which to give birth to an expensive Pentax FF.

Especially when your APS stuff is so good and keenly priced!

**Rondec** · 08-25-2015, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by Mattox

6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography. We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels

I think you shoot what you have to. There are times where you aren't able to use flash, can't open your aperture any more and you just have to push your iso up to get a shot.

That said, I think there are too many folks who push their iso up rather than learn to use flash. My wife shoots weddings and she found that the number one thing that improved her photography was learning lighting and lighting techniques. There are still situations where she can't use flash and will push her iso up, but there are plenty of ways to help the light in a given situation.

Ratcheteer · 08-25-2015, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by rawr

Sony is known for aggressive pricing

cause sony keeps releasing new and updated products - they are even working on a sensor that's gonna work in a similar manner to sigma's foveon x3 sensor

Originally posted by Mattox

6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography

I'm sure Mattox is just trolling, and it looks like some people fell for it.

08-24-2015, 01:18 PM	#50
Chippedoff Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 30	Originally posted by normhead I spenta bit of time at Imaging Resources looking at 645D and 645z compared to Sony A7RII images..the A7RII is impressive... especially at 51200 ISO the A7RII really shines compared to any of it's competition. The problem is those pictures are awful no matter what camera you use. SO you could say it produces better awful pictures. Compared to the 645z at 6400 ISO the 645z shows more detail in the brush hairs. Look at the single strands of hair at the bottom. The A7RII strands become a mushy blur, the 645z strands remain distinct. This is a great camera, better in some ways that probably won't matter much, but still not up in 645z land. Yes i mentioned this in the DR VS Mpix FF forum thread. Regular back lit sensors will produce a haze like effect at junction of contrast areas such as hair to back ground which end up bleeding into one color or the other. The Sony rx100 mark 4 has sensor pre filters (one per colour). Which seems to make a significant difference over the non filtered sensor models. I also tried holding a 58mm uv haze filter over the lens of a backlit sensor P&S camera and it did make a fair difference or improvement in clarity. So it doesn't matter if you get more mpix or DR if the sensor get's confused. Also does any one actually know if this new FF pentax camera will be mirrorless or not? Most of the rumors i have heard are a little thin and quirky on the details. Last edited by Chippedoff; 08-24-2015 at 01:44 PM.

08-24-2015, 07:01 PM	#54
Ikarus Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: California Photos: Albums Posts: 484	Originally posted by Mattox We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels There is a whole world of photography outside of the controlled studio environment. If you really want to be dogmatic about this, you are bound to be the one missing the shot more often than you'd like. The one below is on a K-3 at 3200 ISO, 1/10s, handheld, and the one underneath at 4000 ISO, 300mm, f/6.3, 1/500s, also handheld. Could they have been better with some pro lighting? Sure, but that doesn't mean this isn't photography. Last edited by Ikarus; 08-24-2015 at 07:15 PM.

08-24-2015, 07:10 PM	#55
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by btnapa Hey Norm, I am gonna wait to see what the Pentax FF looks like. There's a lot of us in that boat. There's not a chance I can pay a cent over $2700, if I'm really lucky and nothing breaks before then. If it came in under $2400, I'd be out of this world crazy, happy. The A7rII is $4k, I can't go anywhere near that high.. 36 MP with pixel shifting might well kill the Sony for IQ on many of the images I take. And, I'm, always looking for the highest IQ possible at the best price. So the question I have now is, with the A7rII at $4k, would I jump at a 645D at $3.5k if I had the money, and I could find one for that price? Not yet? How about $3k? Last edited by normhead; 08-24-2015 at 07:19 PM.

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08-24-2015, 12:09 PM	#46
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by kAAs IF they want to make impact? I think they want to do a minimum of three things in relation to their FF plans: - make existing K-mount users - particularly those with long experience with the brand - happy; - improve their credentials as a brand for photo professionals; - make money. Probably in that order. I didn't add 'take over the world' to that list because I don't believe Ricoh have the resources, or the inclination, to do that in the camera market. Unlike Sony, for example.

08-24-2015, 12:58 PM	#47
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I spenta bit of time at Imaging Resources looking at 645D and 645z compared to Sony A7RII images..the A7RII is impressive... especially at 51200 ISO the A7RII really shines compared to any of it's competition. The problem is those pictures are awful no matter what camera you use. SO you could say it produces better awful pictures. Compared to the 645z at 6400 ISO the 645z shows more detail in the brush hairs. Look at the single strands of hair at the bottom. The A7RII strands become a mushy blur, the 645z strands remain distinct. This is a great camera, better in some ways that probably won't matter much, but still not up in 645z land.

08-24-2015, 01:04 PM	#48
Mattox Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 292	6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography. We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels

08-24-2015, 01:06 PM	#49
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Mattox 6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography. We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels Reports have it that the 645z is quite useable up to 6400 ISO, I'm not understanding the issue. This image from this thread shot at 1600 ISO, are you saying that's not photography? With a K-3 I don't like shooting at over 640 ISO, but this completely depends on the camera involved. On my K-5 I'm happy shooting at 800 ISO. Last edited by normhead; 08-24-2015 at 01:19 PM.

08-24-2015, 02:01 PM	#51
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Apart from between 30 and 40 MP , Pentax themselves have said very little.

08-24-2015, 02:49 PM	#52
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Rival in what way? IQ, very likely yes but that leaves many other things particulary lenses which are crucial. I once beat off a pack of feral dogs with an FE2. The dogs came off worse. I am sure I could do the same with a K3 but a Sony A series looks as if might not survive an encounter with a cupcake. How Sony can claim the A7RII is properly weather-sealed eludes me. Even so, without tiptop lenses and very good AF ....

08-24-2015, 04:05 PM	#53
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,615	Originally posted by normhead Reports have it that the 645z is quite useable up to 6400 ISO, I'm not understanding the issue. This image from this thread shot at 1600 ISO, are you saying that's not photography? With a K-3 I don't like shooting at over 640 ISO, but this completely depends on the camera involved. On my K-5 I'm happy shooting at 800 ISO. Hey Norm, Thank you for reminding me of Nicholas' work. Fantastic images at any ISO! ---------- Post added 08-24-15 at 04:08 PM ---------- Originally posted by normhead I spenta bit of time at Imaging Resources looking at 645D and 645z compared to Sony A7RII images..the A7RII is impressive... especially at 51200 ISO the A7RII really shines compared to any of it's competition. The problem is those pictures are awful no matter what camera you use. SO you could say it produces better awful pictures. Compared to the 645z at 6400 ISO the 645z shows more detail in the brush hairs. Look at the single strands of hair at the bottom. The A7RII strands become a mushy blur, the 645z strands remain distinct. This is a great camera, better in some ways that probably won't matter much, but still not up in 645z land. Norm, The differences are there. Anyone who shoots the 645Z probably knows first hand. I am dying to get one but I have to sell my car and walk to work!! Sony is compelling because of the price point and other goodies it offers. Not being in a hurry to take the leap, I am gonna wait to see what the Pentax FF looks like.

08-24-2015, 08:24 PM	#56
noelpolar Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Goolwa, SA Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,310	I'm pretty keen on a FF pentax..... but for non US residents the price may be a big stumbling block....$2200us looks like about $3k here now.... too much for me ..... by November I could get a Sony A7II for about $1400aussie here I'm guessing....

08-24-2015, 09:27 PM - 1 Like	#57
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by noelpolar by November I could get a Sony A7II for about $1400 You can get one now for just $1618, with their current cashback scheme. By November, given current currency fluctuations, prices may go the other way. But then again, Sony is known for aggressive pricing, so A7II pricing may indeed go to $1400 in a few months. This stuff (currency fluctuations, continuing aggressive pricing from Sony and Nikon, general deflation in Japan and the EU) creates a very difficult environment in which to give birth to an expensive Pentax FF.

08-24-2015, 11:01 PM	#58
noelpolar Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Goolwa, SA Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,310	Originally posted by rawr This stuff (currency fluctuations, continuing aggressive pricing from Sony and Nikon, general deflation in Japan and the EU) creates a very difficult environment in which to give birth to an expensive Pentax FF. Especially when your APS stuff is so good and keenly priced!

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08-25-2015, 03:09 AM	#59
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by Mattox 6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography. We should be looking at a max of 800 ISO. Over that, we are not photographers. Use light sources and gain respect using those techniques. Let's compare these camera's then at realistic levels I think you shoot what you have to. There are times where you aren't able to use flash, can't open your aperture any more and you just have to push your iso up to get a shot. That said, I think there are too many folks who push their iso up rather than learn to use flash. My wife shoots weddings and she found that the number one thing that improved her photography was learning lighting and lighting techniques. There are still situations where she can't use flash and will push her iso up, but there are plenty of ways to help the light in a given situation.

08-25-2015, 03:21 AM	#60
Ratcheteer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 223	Originally posted by rawr Sony is known for aggressive pricing cause sony keeps releasing new and updated products - they are even working on a sensor that's gonna work in a similar manner to sigma's foveon x3 sensor Originally posted by Mattox 6400 ISO. Really? That is not photography I'm sure Mattox is just trolling, and it looks like some people fell for it.