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09-10-2015, 12:55 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
I think the boxy design will put alot of people off. I think that has whats been turning people away from pentax. Forget about the dynamic range, when they pickup one and see the not so modern ui that is reminscent of consumer devices from like 2002, i think it really serves to give their cameras a dated feel to be honest. Pentax has been modernizing the tech slowly but imho if they want to gain a bigger foothold in the market they need to focus on the design side of things. Panasonic and sony have gorgeous, modern looking uis. No one has been into boxy cameras since the 70s. Pentax needs to stay current with design trends. Samsung has some of the nicest looking lenses ive ever seen.

They've already got alot of competition from sony i think. Sony has really changed the full frame landscape with their recent offerings. I think it would be hard for them to win me over with out atleast some sort of evf. Being able to see your exposure in advance has really changed the game imo. Sony has really made chimping a thing of the past, in the long run anyway. Low light i think is becoming the new frontier, too with many cameras offering iso 100k or more. Sony proved that you can have a complete video and stills package and i think this is what the pentax ff needs to be too. The pentax ff should have good low light in video and stills. This is where DSLRs fall short. With the d600 you get fantastic low light in stills but in video you get less than aps c it seems.



The d800 is a favorite of many pros because of its high megapixel count, which lets you crop in and make huge prints. If pentax wants to atteract more of the market i think starting with pros would be a good place to start. When amateurs want pics of their dog see pros using a brand i think it really makes them feel good about investing in it. The pentax ff is their chance to do just that, to make pentax more than a hipster brand. My nikon also lets me select a smaller image size if you are concerned about the file size..
The biggest question actually has less to do with the camera itself and more to do with glass. The reason I have stuck with Pentax is that I really like the Pentax lenses. Bodies are nice with good ergonomics and performance for the cost level.

I don't know anyone except you (pro or otherwise) who buys a camera based on menus. This will be a camera in which the menus will be accessed once during set up and after that everything will be changed via external buttons.

In the end, glass, performance, and price (in that order) will decide whether this camera sells well or not and things like style are unlikely to affect it much one way or the other.

09-10-2015, 01:09 PM   #107
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Once someone is an established fan of a brand defenitely. I think people here who have shot with the pentax know what the deal is but if someone who is a life long canon/nikon shooter goes into a camera store and sees a pentax camera with its quirky mix of 70s aesthetics and modern dslr styling they are likely to be turned away. Aesthetics communicate alot to someone. If you come across a site for some company, they might offer an excellent product for example, but if it looks like it was designed by a middle school kid you will probably never actually get to the point of checking out what they have to offer. I think you are a little mistaken about the marketing. This tends to be the standard reason why pentax hasnt caught but, but this is 2015 the age of social media. You dont need ads on tv or in magazines (i dont even remember the last time i bought a magazine) to sell brands. If something is amazing, it gets around on social media. Sony doesnt have half the marketing machine of canon/nikon has but their a7rii is picking up alot of steam and getting alot of attention from pros. You would be hard pressed to find something more iconic than nikon's "I am" campaign. And yet dslr sales are going down. Mirrorless is slowly but surely overtaking dslrs even though canon/nikon are a much more well established brand.
09-10-2015, 02:46 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Sony doesnt have half the marketing machine of canon/nikon has but their a7rii is picking up alot of steam and getting alot of attention from pros.
Just on the subject of menus, and UI's, all the pros (and all the amateurs) agree that Sony's menus are terrible. Yet still they sell.
09-10-2015, 03:02 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Once someone is an established fan of a brand defenitely. I think people here who have shot with the pentax know what the deal is but if someone who is a life long canon/nikon shooter goes into a camera store and sees a pentax camera with its quirky mix of 70s aesthetics and modern dslr styling they are likely to be turned away. Aesthetics communicate alot to someone. If you come across a site for some company, they might offer an excellent product for example, but if it looks like it was designed by a middle school kid you will probably never actually get to the point of checking out what they have to offer. I think you are a little mistaken about the marketing. This tends to be the standard reason why pentax hasnt caught but, but this is 2015 the age of social media. You dont need ads on tv or in magazines (i dont even remember the last time i bought a magazine) to sell brands. If something is amazing, it gets around on social media. Sony doesnt have half the marketing machine of canon/nikon has but their a7rii is picking up alot of steam and getting alot of attention from pros. You would be hard pressed to find something more iconic than nikon's "I am" campaign. And yet dslr sales are going down. Mirrorless is slowly but surely overtaking dslrs even though canon/nikon are a much more well established brand.
I'm going to respond further in this line of reasoning at least this once. You are convinced - without any data that I find credible - that the "look" of the Pentax cameras is holding back the brand. I see camera after camera on various sites and I have to say that nearly every DSLR looks the same to me until I hold it. The mid-tier Canikon's are gross - nasty plastic feeling cheap euck. If you think mirrorless is the answer the data does not seem to hold for that - there was a jump and some growth but it faded - mirrorless is selling but not at rates that supplant DSLR's. If mirrorless is the answer then Pentax is doomed - since that will require a mount change and I don't think anyone has the stomach for it at Ricoh.

What's missing in my opinion? Brand engagement. Pro level support, investments in support of older cameras like firmware upgrades so that people know the company stands behind their gear, longer warranties on items like SDM lenses to stop fear from hurting sales, distribution of parts to someone other than a single source outlet for repair, better high tech features like tethering and wifi built in (but wait we're seeing that with the KS series), stronger push for dealer support and national outlets like Best Buy, WalMart etc.

But what do I know...

09-10-2015, 03:17 PM   #110
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First impession can sometimes be the "make or break" factor. Pentax looks terribly dated and i think that is sort of the problem because technically speaking it should be the easiest aspect to nail. You have no many successful, time honored cases with the canon/nikon and even mirrorless. Even the usubility in general is kind of a weak link with pentax
http://i0.wp.com/www.cameracomparisonreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/P...size=640%2C254

Look at the awkward design and position of that switch for live view. Look at how that green dot isnt even centered. And the ir on the back of the camera where as literally every other camera in existence for the last 20 years has had it you know on the front! Until pentax starts getting these things right they are going to remain a niche brand. Sony is doing well because they are breaking new ground, not just trying to copy the other brands like pentax is!
09-10-2015, 03:24 PM - 1 Like   #111
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Pentax has the best ergonomics in business and look far better than Nikon and Canon. The latter looks like partially melted blobs....
If Pentax doesn't sell it is certainly not due to how they look or their ergonomics.
09-10-2015, 03:27 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I'm going to respond further in this line of reasoning at least this once. You are convinced - without any data that I find credible - that the "look" of the Pentax cameras is holding back the brand. I see camera after camera on various sites and I have to say that nearly every DSLR looks the same to me until I hold it. The mid-tier Canikon's are gross - nasty plastic feeling cheap euck. If you think mirrorless is the answer the data does not seem to hold for that - there was a jump and some growth but it faded - mirrorless is selling but not at rates that supplant DSLR's. If mirrorless is the answer then Pentax is doomed - since that will require a mount change and I don't think anyone has the stomach for it at Ricoh.

What's missing in my opinion? Brand engagement. Pro level support, investments in support of older cameras like firmware upgrades so that people know the company stands behind their gear, longer warranties on items like SDM lenses to stop fear from hurting sales, distribution of parts to someone other than a single source outlet for repair, better high tech features like tethering and wifi built in (but wait we're seeing that with the KS series), stronger push for dealer support and national outlets like Best Buy, WalMart etc.

But what do I know...
In London's best camera store, there is a small display of Pentax cameras topped with a small glass-fronted display cabinet with a 645z, lenses and so forth in it. The impression is neat, yes, but basic and not very inspiring. The staff member i talked to made it clear he did not rate Pentax all that highly. Compare that with lavish point of sales material in the store (and more expansive stands) for every other major camera brand. So yes, I'd say "brand engagement" is absolutely vital, as are good relations with the staff in B&M operations so that they don't auto pass on you, but so far I'm not seeing it. Where I am, little has changed since the Hoya years. TBH, the issue may well be that no one can work Ricoh/Pentax out: is this all BS or do these folks really mean business? It's hard to know. FF is a great opportunity for them to come out from behind the veils, I think, tell and show folks exactly what they are about, etc. Very few folks seem to have any problem with the look and feel of Pentax cameras. Quite the contrary, usually - they really like them. The problem is that the name on the top plate is an enigma and much of what they do seems a complete mystery since they are often far from easy to find at all. So I very much hope that potential buyers aren't turned off an FF by lack of marketing and difficulty in actually finding the stuff.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-11-2015 at 03:07 AM.
09-10-2015, 03:31 PM   #113
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Are anyone buying cameras from stores anymore?

09-10-2015, 03:32 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I'm going to respond further in this line of reasoning at least this once. You are convinced - without any data that I find credible - that the "look" of the Pentax cameras is holding back the brand. I see camera after camera on various sites and I have to say that nearly every DSLR looks the same to me until I hold it. The mid-tier Canikon's are gross - nasty plastic feeling cheap euck. If you think mirrorless is the answer the data does not seem to hold for that - there was a jump and some growth but it faded - mirrorless is selling but not at rates that supplant DSLR's. If mirrorless is the answer then Pentax is doomed - since that will require a mount change and I don't think anyone has the stomach for it at Ricoh.

What's missing in my opinion? Brand engagement. Pro level support, investments in support of older cameras like firmware upgrades so that people know the company stands behind their gear, longer warranties on items like SDM lenses to stop fear from hurting sales, distribution of parts to someone other than a single source outlet for repair, better high tech features like tethering and wifi built in (but wait we're seeing that with the KS series), stronger push for dealer support and national outlets like Best Buy, WalMart etc.

But what do I know...


You walk into a Sam's Club or Costco and you find row upon row of Canon, Nikon, Sony and Olympus but Pentax is MIA and missing a huge opportunity. They should do whatever it takes to get shelf space in the big box stores. Target has (or had) a limited selection of entry level gear but I don't think any other national retailer does... correct me if I'm wrong.


Go to the Pentax website and you see all this slick information about all the products but if you want to find a place to actually hold and handle one before you buy... tough, not a word about where or how to buy other than the online Ricoh store. If someone knows that they want a Pentax then they may be willing to do the onlne/mail order thing but few people will buy an unknown product, that costs hundreds, sight unseen.


When one can go into a Nationwide retailer and find Pentax/Ricoh products displayed side by side with the competitors they will begin to make an impact in the marketplace. Until then they will remain a niche brand with a loyal, always hopeful but somewhat disappointed following.


Styling is not holding Pentax back, it's the lack of consistent, effective, widespread marketing effort which begins with a physical presence in the everyday marketplace. TV and print ads are meaningless if they can't be tied to a tangible product that someone can actually find and handle. No one buys an idea; they buy real products. Even if they go looking for a Pentax and all they can find are Canon and Nikon, well guess what will be in the shopping bag when they leave the store.


I know that Hoya left Pentax in a big hole and Ricoh is trying to recover but if they don't make some serious headway soon it may be too late and that would be a damned shame.
09-10-2015, 03:42 PM   #115
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I'd say the Pentax K-01 and the Nikon Df both put style before performance. Maybe even putting style before function. Those were such trend setters, making such a splash on the marketplace that everybody had to have one and all the camera makers copy them.
09-10-2015, 03:54 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Compare that with lavish point of sales material in the store
That can count for a lot. Last time I visited, one of the busiest camera stores in my region had a separate Canon counter, with dedicated signage and displays, and a dedicated staffer there too. Gives a strong impression of brand strength, and I imagine it may be very handy if you are a Canon user too.

But I have also seen Canon and Nikon DSLR's stuffed unceremoniously into department store display cabinets where they may often languish un-bought for years. So a brand's visibility and fate depends a lot on their sales and marketing support team, and active management.

On the subject of active sales support, I am impressed with Apple's focus here - in the same department store where Canon and Nikon gear often sits all jumbled up and un-sold, every week an Apple support guy comes directly into the store and maintains the dedicated Apple displays. As a result the Apple displays always look nice, everything on display works, and the gear is always up-to-date. And the Apple gear in that store always totally sells out (especially the phones and iPads).

tl dr ; Retail is hard.

Last edited by rawr; 09-10-2015 at 04:00 PM.
09-10-2015, 04:00 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Are anyone buying cameras from stores anymore?
How many people who aren't familiar with the brand are going to spend many thousands buying Pentax FF camera equipment without first checking it out in a store? Likely, almost no one. This isn't about taking a risk on a $300 or $500 camera with a kit lens.
09-10-2015, 04:33 PM   #118
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While you could argue thats its not the most important thing, cameras are expensive things and no one is going to put down hundreds of dollars on something that is an eyesore. Like i said, boxy cameras are a relic of the past and i think its more than marketing thats holding them back. If pentax was that great, pros and amateurs alike would be raving about it on twitter and gary fong would be talking about how pentax (instead of sony) is revolutionizing photography. You would see people calling their local camera stores to carry pentax. It wasnt marketing that has sony stealing so much of the spot light. Its about the rave reviews its getting on blogs, the torrent of videos on youtube of people saying how its changed photography for them. 10 years ago, the people laying the blame on pentax's weak marketing may have been right, but we live in an age where people use tivo to skip ads on tv and very few people buy magazines. Most people get their info from the internet. How can pentax hope to secure a mainstream following when they refuse to conform to mainstream usability? They certainly wouldnt have a mere 5% of the market if they were blowing everyone out of the water.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax has the best ergonomics in business and look far better than Nikon and Canon. The latter looks like partially melted blobs....
If Pentax doesn't sell it is certainly not due to how they look or their ergonomics.
No, they dont. I mean, this a joke right? How many hard edged boxy cameras has come out in the last 20 years?? Compare pentax's "entry level" k30 which is about as user friendly as a book about math to the nikon d3000 series or even d5000 series. The later guides you through the basics gently while genuinely making you want to learn photography while if someone were to to pick up a k30 to the first time, i imagine it wouldnt be too different from being handed a car and told that you're going to compete in nascar tommorow. There is no guidance or acknowledgement that the user may not be a master photographer who has shot film for the last 20 years. I was able to pick up my d600 and figure out all the basics in a matter of minutes. Everything was very self explanatory!

There is no rhyme or reason with the K3. The metering button double as the trash button... I mean what?? The switch on the back of my k20 was probably one of the worst ive ever used and it looks like this problem is present in the other
https://youtu.be/XrN7xiHGg80?t=7m1s

So, no ergonomics are not pentax's strength. Lets not forget the k-01 perhaps the ugliest camera ever. A brand is alot about image.
09-10-2015, 04:36 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
I think the boxy design will put alot of people off. I think that has whats been turning people away from pentax. Forget about the dynamic range, when they pickup one and see the not so modern ui that is reminscent of consumer devices from like 2002, i think it really serves to give their cameras a dated feel to be honest. Pentax has been modernizing the tech slowly but imho if they want to gain a bigger foothold in the market they need to focus on the design side of things. Panasonic and sony have gorgeous, modern looking uis. No one has been into boxy cameras since the 70s. Pentax needs to stay current with design trends. Samsung has some of the nicest looking lenses ive ever seen.

They've already got alot of competition from sony i think. Sony has really changed the full frame landscape with their recent offerings. I think it would be hard for them to win me over with out atleast some sort of evf. Being able to see your exposure in advance has really changed the game imo. Sony has really made chimping a thing of the past, in the long run anyway. Low light i think is becoming the new frontier, too with many cameras offering iso 100k or more. Sony proved that you can have a complete video and stills package and i think this is what the pentax ff needs to be too. The pentax ff should have good low light in video and stills. This is where DSLRs fall short. With the d600 you get fantastic low light in stills but in video you get less than aps c it seems.



The d800 is a favorite of many pros because of its high megapixel count, which lets you crop in and make huge prints. If pentax wants to atteract more of the market i think starting with pros would be a good place to start. When amateurs want pics of their dog see pros using a brand i think it really makes them feel good about investing in it. The pentax ff is their chance to do just that, to make pentax more than a hipster brand. My nikon also lets me select a smaller image size if you are concerned about the file size..
I am sorry but your post simply makes no sense. I own the Sony A7RII and have owned at least a half dozen other recent Sony cameras and have enjoyed using them all. But not because of the styling which has little or nothing to do with the function of the camera. I prefer the feel in hand of the K-3 and trust its ruggedness more.I use both the Sony A7Rii and the K-3ii about equally, each for what it seems to do best for me. But none of that has anything to do with Pentax limited market share which is well understood here and has been talked to death.
09-10-2015, 04:43 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
... And the ir on the back of the camera where as literally every other camera in existence for the last 20 years has had it you know on the front! Until pentax starts getting these things right they are going to remain a niche brand. Sony is doing well because they are breaking new ground, not just trying to copy the other brands like pentax is!
From the K-3 manual, noting the fifth item from top left, and similarly for just about every other Pentax DSLR since the *istD (if not all) :
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