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10-08-2015, 08:45 AM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
Why is Ricoh even bothering with a FF?
I think they should make a watch cam that also supports a high energy IR laser blaster that would be useful for reheating one's coffee.


Steve

10-08-2015, 08:52 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I think they should make a watch cam that also supports a high energy IR laser blaster that would be useful for reheating one's coffee.


Steve
Will it have 4k? And 40mp? And shoot 30fps?

---------- Post added 10-08-15 at 08:58 AM ----------

I guess it just comes down to the fact that there are two groups. Those who want to take photographs and those who want to take pictures. Of course there's some overlap but I think the latter is a much bigger group.
10-08-2015, 08:59 AM   #18
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don't forget about Fuji

With regards to the marketing space that Pentax currently occupies, one should perhaps take a cue from Fuji who have made quite a nice niche for themselves with WR + small + lightweight bodies and lenses -- primarily due to the fact that they have specialized/standardized in crop-sensor. So the OP's statement has precedence and is worth pondering.

Michael
10-08-2015, 09:09 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Does Sony have pixel shift?
olympus has pixel shift technology, and there is a rumor that sony is going to do it with a firmware update on the a7rii... fwiw.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
SO why is mirrorless, which takes the same picture with different technology, better than pixel shift,
it's not an either/or situation(see above), you are as usual mis-characterizing the situation

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
To me, mirrorless vs pentaprism and mirror is a fluff issue. It just doesn't affect IQ. It's about who looks good. A fashion statement. Not an issue for the serious photographer.
the evf on mirrorless cameras is much more accurate for manual focus use, it works in dark conditions where you can't see with an ovf, etc.

that's not a "fashion statement", it improves your photography.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
this Sony 42 MP backlit sensor with pixel bleeding is not a step forward.
you've never owned or even shot a ff digital camera, so we'll take that with a grain of salt

10-08-2015, 09:19 AM - 1 Like   #20
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Ricoh will make a full frame camera because they think they can make money with it. That's all.

It is a mistake to think that the only way you can make money is by selling the same number as Canon or Nikon. As long as Ricoh sets their price right, has competitive features, and doesn't over produce cameras such that they have to severely discount them, they should do well.

As to the whole SLR versus mirrorless argument, it has been made many times through the forum. Mirrorless doesn't really shift the paradigm in any meaningful way. It does decrease slightly the size of the camera body, but for a given size sensor, the size of the lenses remains the same, meaning that for fast zooms, the mirrorless camera bodies can become unwieldy.

Either way, Pentax's strengths are with the k mount and leaving that to go mirrorless, needing to launch a whole new line up of new mount lenses seems a recipe for total disaster.
10-08-2015, 09:30 AM   #21
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I guess my original thought process was there is such a gap in the market between camera phones/tablets and dslrs that why not focus on that? Mirrorless cameras are small, fashionable, cool, and take much better pictures than an iphone. Sure they may not be up to a dslr IQ but they are fine for most people. But you still need a computer to edit the pictures. So your choices are crappy phone pictures, a mirrorless or dslr. Which the last two may as well be the same thing for someone not into photography yet. I just think there is a market for something to bridge the gap of new technology and old technology of dslr cameras that have been around for years. And the actual camera used may not be that bridge but the ability to edit and share your pictures without a desktop might be the right idea.



---------- Post added 10-08-15 at 09:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Ricoh will make a full frame camera because they think they can make money with it. That's all.

It is a mistake to think that the only way you can make money is by selling the same number as Canon or Nikon. As long as Ricoh sets their price right, has competitive features, and doesn't over produce cameras such that they have to severely discount them, they should do well.

As to the whole SLR versus mirrorless argument, it has been made many times through the forum. Mirrorless doesn't really shift the paradigm in any meaningful way. It does decrease slightly the size of the camera body, but for a given size sensor, the size of the lenses remains the same, meaning that for fast zooms, the mirrorless camera bodies can become unwieldy.

Either way, Pentax's strengths are with the k mount and leaving that to go mirrorless, needing to launch a whole new line up of new mount lenses seems a recipe for total disaster.
Oh believe me, I did not mean for them to stop what they're doing. I just meant focus new resources in addition directions.

Last edited by Another dyemention; 10-08-2015 at 09:49 AM.
10-08-2015, 09:44 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Either way, Pentax's strengths are with the k mount and leaving that to go mirrorless, needing to launch a whole new line up of new mount lenses seems a recipe for total disaster.
IMHO, that's the real answer to the OP's question.... besides, there is not that much Ricoh can do to improve on the already full featured k-3 or k-3II.
10-08-2015, 09:59 AM - 1 Like   #23
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I'm not knocking anyone with this statement so please don't take it as such. But everyone who has replied, is replying as a photographer / from a photographers POV. There are a lot less of you out there than there are people who aren't photographers. Those who may want to get into taking better pictures than a cellphone can. There is something like 250,000 images uploaded to Fb every minute. That is huge. Why not tap into that market to make it easier for everyone? That is my point with all this. And I don't mean Facebook. I mean technology is changing. People post pictures on Fb to get "likes" and a bit of validation and encouragement. The people that "like" the pictures aren't going to care if it was with pentaxs new ff or a nikon cool pix. They won't even know. And that is the market I was saying ricoh should focus on.

10-08-2015, 10:01 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
I guess my original thought process was there is such a gap in the market between camera phones/tablets and dslrs that why not focus on that? Mirrorless cameras are small, fashionable, cool, and take much better pictures than an iphone. Sure they may not be up to a dslr IQ
the two sharpest lenses on dxo were tested on a 36mp a7r mirrorless camera; Camera Lens Ratings by DxOMark - DxOMark

mirrorless cameras often use the same sensors that dslrs use; there is no overall iq difference with either platform.
10-08-2015, 10:08 AM   #25
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Ricoh said they were serious when they acquired Pentax; unfortunately no one will believe them unless they ship a 36×24 camera. For reasons unclear to me, the 645Z didn't count..
10-08-2015, 10:16 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
And that is the market I was saying ricoh should focus on.
You're asking Ricoh Imaging to become a cheap brand dedicated to people posting pictures of their lunches on Facebook.

Fortunately, you get no vote on this: Ricoh/Pentax is making a DSLR because we want it, and they want our money.
10-08-2015, 10:16 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
Why is Ricoh even bothering with a FF? I'm relatively new to photography so maybe it's just my lack of experience and knowledge talking, but I really don't understand why ricoh is wasting any time and money at all on a FF. pentax FF isn't going to be groundbreaking to where canikons will switch. I'm just speculating here but how many aps-c users will upgrade to the FF? Maybe half? And I think that's a very optimistic guess. Pentax has some of the best apsc cameras available, an the best MF camera available so why not focus on what they're good at? Maybe work on an affordable MF camera priced the same as canikons FF cameras. A camera like that can be pentaxs offer to the professional photographers instead of another option for a FF. its almost 2016. people like spending money on new technology. why not work on something like a stellar mirrorless camera that wirelessly tethers with a tab? something where you can edit your pictures on the spot. Offer a pro package where you can control your whole system, flashes, camera, editing- all on the tab- on location. Maybe it's just me but I don't see a point in playing follow the leader when you can be the leader. Why play catch up with companies like canikon? And who cares about a pentax ff anyhow? The people on here. Maybe a few thousand people? Seems like a big waste to me.
Ah ah! You message perfectly makes sense. In fact, interchangeable lens camera basic marketing strategy is to get new to photography prospect into selecting an high value entry level Pentax camera (cheap for the features it has: K200D, K30, K50, K-S2) and high value affordable lenses (18-50, DAL35 2.4 and DAL50 1.8 etc). Once the "new to photgraphy" person is not new anymore, chances are that he/she realizes that he/she can improve his result by buying additional equipment, but then, he/she is not likely to buy something front another lens mount because products are not compatible....and so on.. until the point where the customer has significantly enough invested in K mount so that the cost to switch to another brand of interchangeable system is a barrier.

Why Ricoh develops a FF camera now? Because as long as it was possible to offer a camera upgrade path (istD, K10D, K20D, K7, K-5, K-5II, K5IIs, K-3) to k mount customer base, there was not strong justification to increase the size of the sensor to FF.
But then the APSC sensors improved to a point (K-3, K-3II) where image quality can't be easily and significantly improved anymore by cramming more smaller pixels into an APSC sized sensor that is outresolving most lenses (no big risk of moire with most lenses when removing the OAA). So, the FF camera is an upgrade option for the users of K-5, K-5II, K5IIs, K-3 and K-3II cameras.
10-08-2015, 10:20 AM   #28
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I won't keep talking in circles because I feel I made my point. I just feel like ricoh has a chance to be a much more "hip" and with-the-times company than the direction they are going. The ks-1 and ks-2 are good examples. Those cameras are new, they can appeal to the people who don't want a big professional looking dslr. People hanging out with their friends at dinner or a party. Who wants to bust out this big dslr with an 6" lens sticking out. Then have to wait to get home to edit it and share it. I'd love to snap some good quality pictures, edit them on my tablet already in my backpack, and get on with my day. Until I started shooting for money, I'd never have a need for more than that. Which is when if buy a ff anyhow.

---------- Post added 10-08-15 at 10:25 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You're asking Ricoh Imaging to become a cheap brand dedicated to people posting pictures of their lunches on Facebook.

Fortunately, you get no vote on this: Ricoh/Pentax is making a DSLR because we want it, and they want our money.
I'll edit that to say they want money. And I'm not suggesting they turn into that company. I'm suggesting they supplement with that strategy. They are in an excellent position to do so. pentax for dslr and MF. Ricoh for hipster bs that is aimed at rich bratty teenagers and college kids who want the next coolest thing. Plus they're not required to put out a full frame like canikon are. Ricoh has all the freedom in the world to do as they please.
10-08-2015, 10:25 AM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
I won't keep talking in circles because I feel I made my point. I just feel like ricoh has a chance to be a much more "hip" and with-the-times company than the direction they are going. The ks-1 and ks-2 are good examples. Those cameras are new, they can appeal to the people who don't want a big professional looking dslr. People hanging out with their friends at dinner or a party. Who wants to bust out this big dslr with an 6" lens sticking out. Then have to wait to get home to edit it and share it. I'd love to snap some good quality pictures, edit them on my tablet already in my backpack, and get on with my day. Until I started shooting for money, I'd never have a need for more than that. Which is when if buy a ff anyhow.
Sure, this is your case. You entered recently, so you are not ready to buy a FF. But the sum of Pentax owners who own Pentax cameras for years and even decades, is much greater than the number of people owning an entry level Pentax camera like you.
10-08-2015, 10:31 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Ah ah! You message perfectly makes sense. In fact, interchangeable lens camera basic marketing strategy is to get new to photography prospect into selecting an high value entry level Pentax camera (cheap for the features it has: K200D, K30, K50, K-S2) and high value affordable lenses (18-50, DAL35 2.4 and DAL50 1.8 etc). Once the "new to photgraphy" person is not new anymore, chances are that he/she realizes that he/she can improve his result by buying additional equipment, but then, he/she is not likely to buy something front another lens mount because products are not compatible....and so on.. until the point where the customer has significantly enough invested in K mount so that the cost to switch to another brand of interchangeable system is a barrier.

Why Ricoh develops a FF camera now? Because as long as it was possible to offer a camera upgrade path (istD, K10D, K20D, K7, K-5, K-5II, K5IIs, K-3) to k mount customer base, there was not strong justification to increase the size of the sensor to FF.
But then the APSC sensors improved to a point (K-3, K-3II) where image quality can't be easily and significantly improved anymore by cramming more smaller pixels into an APSC sized sensor that is outresolving most lenses (no big risk of moire with most lenses when removing the OAA). So, the FF camera is an upgrade option for the users of K-5, K-5II, K5IIs, K-3 and K-3II cameras.
And yes, I can see how the ff is the only viable option from here. And the money pros will spend on new glass will definitely bring them in lots of money.

---------- Post added 10-08-15 at 10:40 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Sure, this is your case. You entered recently, so you are not ready to buy a FF. But the sum of Pentax owners who own Pentax cameras for years and even decades, is much greater than the number of people owning an entry level Pentax camera like you.
True but I'm guessing the number of people buying entry level cameras is probably the biggest group. And I'm speculating here but I would imagine there is a decent amount of them buying a dslr because that's the only option available. What if there was another option? Something much more modern. Something unique and trendy. That's what I'm suggesting ricoh works on.
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