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10-08-2015, 02:16 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The 'us' means everyone here who is waiting for the FF, and those elsewhere, whom you're rudely dismissing as "a waste".

FYI, higher margin products are much more valuable than low or no margin products. Let me put it this way: the 645Z costs about 8000 euro, body only. Assuming the margins (%) are identical, Pentax would have to sell ~30,000 of your less-than-DSLR cameras (estimated at 200 euro - low-end DSLRs are quite cheap, and this must be cheaper) every month to make the same money. But they aren't, they're significantly lower.
If you want to play a victim by claiming I called you a waste, that is your prerogative and I won't try changing your mind.
And yes, they would need to sell much more. But what happens in a year when there are 20,000 new pentax users instead of 20? And what happens the following year when there is 20,000 more and when my "less than dslr" isn't good enough and a large percentage upgrades. After a few years, there's a huge new wave of pentax users (or at least those who know of pentax and their products). now you've opened your company to thousands and thousands of new camera owners who may have never though about owning a ff or even a dslr. Why do you think nikon is so successful? They offer a crappy d3200 that half the people will outgrow after a year and the other half probably don't we after a year. But so what? Nikon got their money. Then they offer a decent d5200 (which still isn't as good as a k50) and they know most d3200 users probably will skip and go to a d7200 when they upgrade. A d5200 user will probably upgrade to a full frame.
Should pentax do the same? No. Why? Why jump in that pool? Why not offer an alternative to the entry level dslr crowd that will get people hooked? Why not go that route first? Then you have a whole brand new generation of people wanting more from their cameras. Of course, advertising could alleviate a need for this all together but consumers won't have to decide between pentax nikon or canon for their entry level dslr. They will have something different all together and already be a part of the pentax consumer group. And if they're happy, why would they move up to a nikon or canon? It'll be right up the pentax dslr to full frame chain.

10-08-2015, 02:38 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
Why not offer an alternative to the entry level dslr crowd that will get people hooked?
Isn't there already a good range of cameras that sit between smartphone and DSLR? Your idea seems to mean that someone would have to carry a phone and a tablet , isn't that actually a negative selling point?
10-08-2015, 03:00 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
If you want to play a victim by claiming I called you a waste, that is your prerogative and I won't try changing your mind.
And yes, they would need to sell much more. But what happens in a year when there are 20,000 new pentax users instead of 20? And what happens the following year when there is 20,000 more and when my "less than dslr" isn't good enough and a large percentage upgrades. After a few years, there's a huge new wave of pentax users (or at least those who know of pentax and their products). now you've opened your company to thousands and thousands of new camera owners who may have never though about owning a ff or even a dslr. Why do you think nikon is so successful? They offer a crappy d3200 that half the people will outgrow after a year and the other half probably don't we after a year. But so what? Nikon got their money. Then they offer a decent d5200 (which still isn't as good as a k50) and they know most d3200 users probably will skip and go to a d7200 when they upgrade. A d5200 user will probably upgrade to a full frame.
Should pentax do the same? No. Why? Why jump in that pool? Why not offer an alternative to the entry level dslr crowd that will get people hooked? Why not go that route first? Then you have a whole brand new generation of people wanting more from their cameras. Of course, advertising could alleviate a need for this all together but consumers won't have to decide between pentax nikon or canon for their entry level dslr. They will have something different all together and already be a part of the pentax consumer group. And if they're happy, why would they move up to a nikon or canon? It'll be right up the pentax dslr to full frame chain.
QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
Why do you think nikon is so successful? They offer a crappy d3200 that half the people will outgrow after a year and the other half probably don't we after a year. But so what? Nikon got their money. Then they offer a decent d5200 (which still isn't as good as a k50) and they know most d3200 users probably will skip and go to a d7200 when they upgrade. A d5200 user will probably upgrade to a full frame.
....Pentax is still producing competitive, High quality APSC DSLR. But for all of Us coming from the film era (when 35mm was the standard) FF is the natural way to feel perspective,DOF and FOV. Simple. APSC is great and really interesting in the tele end. Remember that nowadays many people aiming for a real camera are opting for m4/3 systems and Canikons entry-level are compelled by those products, eroding potential APSC market. So .... I think FF is a welcome product linked with Pentax' history of High-end product.
So, welcome FF !!!!!
10-08-2015, 03:00 PM - 1 Like   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by mohb Quote
Isn't there already a good range of cameras that sit between smartphone and DSLR? Your idea seems to mean that someone would have to carry a phone and a tablet , isn't that actually a negative selling point?
There is but I think I said take it a step further with something like being able to edit your pictures and control the camera via a tablet. And it wouldn't be required. Just an option for all the people who have a tablet with them in the first place. And maybe the whole idea stinks. My point was to think outside the box by offering something that caters to the people who use tablets instead of computers. People who are on the go and like to document their lives and share the pictures on social media. Sure there are plenty of cameras that may fit in that genre but nothing is marketed that way. It's just another in between camera. Targeting that group of people and marketing to them is where the need would be created.

---------- Post added 10-08-15 at 03:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by bm75 Quote
....Pentax is still producing competitive, High quality APSC DSLR. But for all of Us coming from the film era (when 35mm was the standard) FF is the natural way to feel perspective,DOF and FOV. Simple. APSC is great and really interesting in the tele end. Remember that nowadays many people aiming for a real camera are opting for m4/3 systems and Canikons entry-level are compelled by those products, eroding potential APSC market. So .... I think FF is a welcome product linked with Pentax' history of High-end product.
So, welcome FF !!!!!
And I agree that is is needed. Just my opinion that pentax should bring in whole new customer base before focusing on an established one. But I'm no marketing major so maybe it would be best to have everything in place before bringing in new people.
I just feel like there is a lot of opportunity to grab a piece of the newcomer pie before they get established with canon or nikon when they buy a rebel or d3200. Especially if it's something new opposed to just another dslr.

10-08-2015, 03:20 PM   #50
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I understand your opinion. I used a tablet with Win8 and, for sure, I was able to run Rawtherapee and PDCU4. So it'll be great to improve connectivity between camera and devices. But, if mpx count start rising again ( APSC or FF doesn't matter) tablets will be unuseful to run bigger files. So, unless you're using just Jpegs out of camera, you will need some other device. Notice that Sony offers now the possibility to connect devices in a simple way (not my experience).. There's a ton of vids on YouTube in this regard. I think Ricoh will improve this soon and FF could be the first product to keep some unseen new improvements. Just keep waiting for the release. Best regards, Matteo
10-08-2015, 03:34 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
If you want to play a victim by claiming I called you a waste, that is your prerogative and I won't try changing your mind.
And yes, they would need to sell much more. But what happens in a year when there are 20,000 new pentax users instead of 20? And what happens the following year when there is 20,000 more and when my "less than dslr" isn't good enough and a large percentage upgrades. After a few years, there's a huge new wave of pentax users (or at least those who know of pentax and their products). now you've opened your company to thousands and thousands of new camera owners who may have never though about owning a ff or even a dslr. Why do you think nikon is so successful? They offer a crappy d3200 that half the people will outgrow after a year and the other half probably don't we after a year. But so what? Nikon got their money. Then they offer a decent d5200 (which still isn't as good as a k50) and they know most d3200 users probably will skip and go to a d7200 when they upgrade. A d5200 user will probably upgrade to a full frame.
Should pentax do the same? No. Why? Why jump in that pool? Why not offer an alternative to the entry level dslr crowd that will get people hooked? Why not go that route first? Then you have a whole brand new generation of people wanting more from their cameras. Of course, advertising could alleviate a need for this all together but consumers won't have to decide between pentax nikon or canon for their entry level dslr. They will have something different all together and already be a part of the pentax consumer group. And if they're happy, why would they move up to a nikon or canon? It'll be right up the pentax dslr to full frame chain.
I'm not playing victim, I'm pointing out to your rudeness; too bad you still can't figure out. Because coming on a Pentax forum, on a section dedicated to those interested in this FF camera, and say that we're "a waste" and Ricoh Imaging should rather ignore us is rude.

Your 20 and 20,000 numbers are made up and utterly ridiculous in fact; you have nothing to show that your vague idea will bring up buyers on a 3 order of magnitude larger scale. Let's replace 20 with 10,000 - which is a plausible number for the initial monthly production volume for the FF. Your 20,000 becomes 10,000,000. For a single month.
For reference, the total camera sales (CIPA participants only) in August was almost 3,000,000 units.

Pentax should continue making products we want because we're their customers. They should not change their strategy every time someone on the Internet makes up an incomplete "perfect" strategy, just because said someone believes it must work. Someone who can't even define the product he's asking for, and can't admit there's no place for something in between the compacts, Q and entry level DSLRs/large sensor MILCs.
At least we know what we want - a Pentax FF DSLR - and we will pay for it. We're not an imaginary market.
10-08-2015, 03:35 PM   #52
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OMG Please stop

Light's new L16 Camera will do everything you want in a package hip, young, non-SLR users already understand and appreciate. Stodgy old Ricoh is late to that party, so they're falling back on an interesting, different FF dSLR.


/irony
10-08-2015, 03:37 PM - 1 Like   #53
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I think it is a BIG waste of time to read this thread... doesn't mean anything...

10-08-2015, 04:08 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Light's new L16 Camera will do everything you want in a package hip, young, non-SLR users already understand and appreciate. Stodgy old Ricoh is late to that party, so they're falling back on an interesting, different FF dSLR.


/irony
And that is exactly the kind of forward thinking I think ricoh should be focusing on. Sure maybe a tethered tablet is a lame idea. I have no problems admitting that. But a product like lights new camera is going to be the buzz over pentaxs full frame. At least to the people who are not already photographers.

---------- Post added 10-08-15 at 04:14 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm not playing victim, I'm pointing out to your rudeness; too bad you still can't figure out. Because coming on a Pentax forum, on a section dedicated to those interested in this FF camera, and say that we're "a waste" and Ricoh Imaging should rather ignore us is rude.

Your 20 and 20,000 numbers are made up and utterly ridiculous in fact; you have nothing to show that your vague idea will bring up buyers on a 3 order of magnitude larger scale. Let's replace 20 with 10,000 - which is a plausible number for the initial monthly production volume for the FF. Your 20,000 becomes 10,000,000. For a single month.
For reference, the total camera sales (CIPA participants only) in August was almost 3,000,000 units.

Pentax should continue making products we want because we're their customers. They should not change their strategy every time someone on the Internet makes up an incomplete "perfect" strategy, just because said someone believes it must work. Someone who can't even define the product he's asking for, and can't admit there's no place for something in between the compacts, Q and entry level DSLRs/large sensor MILCs.
At least we know what we want - a Pentax FF DSLR - and we will pay for it. We're not an imaginary market.
I'm not going to argue with you about what you feel constitutes as being ride or not. Frankly, your opinion and feelings are irrelevant to me. And no where does it say the forum is "for those intersted in the full frame" it says pentax full frame. Meaning I or anyone else can discuss whatever it is we feel like discussing pertaining to pentaxs upcoming full frame camera. You don't like the topic, move along and enjoy your evening. You think that's rude, well sorry about your luck. But again, move on and enjoy your evening. Because never did I once say that anyone interested in a full frame camera is a waste. Only that ricoh focusing on an already established market is a waste of their limited resources. And yeah, I made up the numbers. This whole topic is hypothetical and is irrelevant to anything pertaining to real life. It wot happen, it's probably a dumb idea, the market is probably too fickle and changed too fast to focus on a faddish thing like this but my opinion is still my opinion. And that is all this is. So again, sir, if you don't like it then kindly move along.
10-08-2015, 04:22 PM   #55
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Did you miss the /irony?

The ergonomics of the L16 are just totally impossible. All that technology and you have to use the thumbs and fingers at arms' length?

Not.

The trick will be turning a profit at 2004 industry volume levels. If your company business model depends on 2014 sales you're going under. Can you say Nikon? Can you say Sony (they as much as admitted it when the raised $2.8bbn and refocused he enterprise on sensor production)?

Pentax will thrive because the company has been optimized for short, small production runs of niche products and a limited number of high-value interesting anchor products. You shoud be posting on a Nikon Forum.
10-08-2015, 04:47 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Did you miss the /irony?

The ergonomics of the L16 are just totally impossible. All that technology and you have to use the thumbs and fingers at arms' length?

Not.

The trick will be turning a profit at 2004 industry volume levels. If your company business model depends on 2014 sales you're going under. Can you say Nikon? Can you say Sony (they as much as admitted it when the raised $2.8bbn and refocused he enterprise on sensor production)?

Pentax will thrive because the company has been optimized for short, small production runs of niche products and a limited number of high-value interesting anchor products. You shoud be posting on a Nikon Forum.
Oops. I did miss that. And I'm sure nikon will come out with some kind of innovative new fad in time anyhow. And I dot think pentax will go bankrupt if they invest in the ff market. Like I said earlier, it will do well for them. And it's not like I'm going to write them and try changing their minds. I mean, come on. I'm nobody. My opinion doesn't matter. But for sake of this continuing on any longer and upsetting anyone else, I completely agree that the ff is the way to go and that ricoh should concentrate on their current customer base. They obviously have a much better how to run their company than I do. So thanks for all the replies but I think it's time for all of us to move along. Sorry if I offended anyone, that was never my intentions. Only wanted to discuss and debate the other possibilities out there. Everyone enjoy your evenings.
10-08-2015, 04:47 PM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
I think it is a BIG waste of time to read this thread... doesn't mean anything...


Agreed. Such nonsense.
10-08-2015, 05:25 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
I think the businesscase for the FF is not to convince Canikon users to switch, but rather to keep existing Pentax users with the brand.
That is the main reason. I shoot for a living and most commercial photography is required to have a FF. My wedding and portrait clients are very pleased with the results I give them for my APSC. I personally love all my Pentax bodies and the IQ from them all. I love to stay busy on gigs. The fact I can soon have a FF, I can meet the requirement of a FF and land more gigs.
10-08-2015, 05:26 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
I guess my original thought process was there is such a gap in the market between camera phones/tablets and dslrs that why not focus on that? Mirrorless cameras are small, fashionable, cool, and take much better pictures than an iphone. Sure they may not be up to a dslr IQ but they are fine for most people. But you still need a computer to edit the pictures. So your choices are crappy phone pictures, a mirrorless or dslr. Which the last two may as well be the same thing for someone not into photography yet. I just think there is a market for something to bridge the gap of new technology and old technology of dslr cameras that have been around for years.
You may be right, but I'm not certain the market is as big as you might think. After all, is this not the market Samsung has aggressively gone after? Yet it does not seem they have made much headway.

What you are proposing is more electronic 'gadget' than pure camera, which is fine. However, Samsung or Sony are the ones to go after that market, they have the expertise as well as the giant marketing machine required. Pentax is a camera company and at least for now that means boring old DSLRs. I don't see Ricoh as cutting edge anything, just solid, reliable equipment that they improve a little bit at a time, one generation after another.

QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
the number of people buying entry level cameras is probably the biggest group. And I'm speculating here but I would imagine there is a decent amount of them buying a dslr because that's the only option available. What if there was another option? Something much more modern. Something unique and trendy. That's what I'm suggesting ricoh works on.
That entry group (soccer moms or dance dads) will just buy a cheap DSLR because there is no complicated interface to figure out. That is what has always happened. Cutting edge, 'new' devices rarely make the mainstream until the tech filters down to the lowest common denominator. What you are suggesting is cool, and trendy and something Apple or Sony might try as a risk project. But not Ricoh.
10-08-2015, 06:38 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Another dyemention Quote
I'm relatively new to photography so maybe it's just my lack of experience and knowledge talking, but I really don't understand why ricoh is wasting any time and money at all on a FF
The likely total number of members who would like a Pentax / Ricoh FF camera, from a survey taken calculated with 99% certainty is 39,000 PF forum members and if the camera was reasonably affordable, this figure would rise to around 44,000 members. Between 59 and 66% therefore.
Up to 41% of members will not buy a FF camera

So, Ricoh builds a FF camera because so many of us wants a FF K-mount camera, myself included.
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