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10-11-2015, 11:40 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Danaher Dempsey Quote
I think it is wise to review the computer industry. If the application was only word processing, then consumers would not have upgraded machines every few years.
Maybe yes, maybe no.

In the early years of computing, I was responsible for the academic users side of IT at a small college. The first person who just "had" to have a 386-based computer (then the most powerful processor) was the secretary of the head of a social sciences department ... who did mostly word processing. Having a computer with "386" on the case was worth a lot of prestige.

I believe the same thing is true these days of MP and FF.

10-11-2015, 07:32 PM   #77
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They should have done Mirror-less Full Frame if they are looking to the future IMHO

I would never do back to reflex but would consider a mirror-less FF, I am just not so interested in the Sony offerings.

Of course I guess they have done their market research and think there is a big enough future in Reflex FF to be worth their while to try and get some of the Canikon market share, I just have my doubts.

EDIT: After many years it did however get me back to the Pentax Forums to at least look at the discussion on this topic.. LOL
10-11-2015, 11:37 PM   #78
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Joele,

I think you may be correct on the future eventually being mirror-less. I think that Pentax could not ignore all those FF k-mount lenses made during the last 40 years. I think the reservoir of existing glass made this decision worthwhile. Where would sufficient new lenses come from to get this FF mirror-less system started? For many initial purchasers that might be to big a gamble to make on Pentax.

Releasing a few new high quality FF lenses will be sufficient to get potential buyers to purchase.

Whether I buy the Pentax FF will depend on what Ricoh releases as well as my wallet and interest. I think a k-3 may be in my future instead.
10-12-2015, 12:14 AM   #79
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People complained, gnashed their teeth,threw tantrums, switched systems,and Righ High has gained many followers out of his notoriety for bashing pentax because of not having a capable FF DSLR.


...And now that we are finally going to get it, people are still complaining.

QuoteOriginally posted by joele Quote
They should have done Mirror-less Full Frame if they are looking to the future
oh it's all well to say the newest feature is the future and that pentax should devote all their resources to jumping on that bandwagon along with everyone else. Cameras with short registration distances have been around for a long time, and there is no shortage of issues that lens designers have to get around when making lenses for them - I'd say that there are more optical problems with short registration distances than there are with longer ones. Especially with digital sensors in existing mirrorless cameras having issues with lens casts, excessive vignetting, increased astigmatism due to the sensor stack, insensitivity to light hitting the sensor photosites at acute angles...


Last edited by Digitalis; 10-12-2015 at 12:25 AM.
10-12-2015, 02:30 AM - 1 Like   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
People complained, gnashed their teeth,threw tantrums, switched systems,and Righ High has gained many followers out of his notoriety for bashing pentax because of not having a capable FF DSLR.


...And now that we are finally going to get it, people are still complaining.



oh it's all well to say the newest feature is the future and that pentax should devote all their resources to jumping on that bandwagon along with everyone else. Cameras with short registration distances have been around for a long time, and there is no shortage of issues that lens designers have to get around when making lenses for them - I'd say that there are more optical problems with short registration distances than there are with longer ones. Especially with digital sensors in existing mirrorless cameras having issues with lens casts, excessive vignetting, increased astigmatism due to the sensor stack, insensitivity to light hitting the sensor photosites at acute angles...
I don't think people are complaining, in by far the most cases anyway. They are simply pointing out that the world has moved on since 2001 or thereabouts, when Pentax first talked about a digital FF camera, and that starting a new line of conventional DSLRs now isn't the no-brainer it might have been a decade or more ago. In some ways it would be good to have "issues", optical or otherwise, with a short-register mount because at least it would mean that it existed and could be purchased and used unlike, so far, the unicorn camera. Competition from mirrorless makes it that much harder for Ricoh when K-mount lenses can be used pretty darn well on existing cameras from AN Other brand by using an adapter. That just wasn't the case a few years ago and all of these things drain off customers. I don't think this is an easy one for Ricoh.
10-12-2015, 02:44 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I don't think people are complaining, in by far the most cases anyway. They are simply pointing out that the world has moved on since 2001 or thereabouts, when Pentax first talked about a digital FF camera, and that starting a new line of conventional DSLRs now isn't the no-brainer it might have been a decade or more ago. In some ways it would be good to have "issues", optical or otherwise, with a short-register mount because at least it would mean that it existed and could be purchased and used unlike, so far, the unicorn camera. Competition from mirrorless makes it that much harder for Ricoh when K-mount lenses can be used pretty darn well on existing cameras from AN Other brand by using an adapter. That just wasn't the case a few years ago and all of these things drain off customers. I don't think this is an easy one for Ricoh.
Do you think if Pentax released a short registration mirrorless camera, they would have finished it by now? I very much doubt that. If anything, it would take them longer to create that, plus the adapter containing the screw drive mechanism necessary to focus the majority of older k mount auto focus lenses.

I think we can be pretty safe to say that Pentax worked not at all on a full frame camera during all of Hoya's tenure and for the first couple of years of Ricoh's owner ship. That's the reason the unicorn hasn't showed up yet.

I guess I am pretty convinced that using k mount lenses on an SLR that gives you aperture on the body and auto focus is probably a better experience than using them on a mirrorless with a dumb adapter, but I guess we'll see come spring.
10-12-2015, 03:56 AM   #82
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The main problem with introducing a new short registration mirrorless system is that other things would have to make room for it. Yes, I'm talking about the long-awaited FF K-mount product line.
If they did that, they would lose those of us who were waiting (even if only recently) for it. They would lose APS-C users wanting something (perceived as) better. But, that's not everything; people will lose faith in the future of the K-mount. It would be a reasonable conclusion, seeing that:
a. most efforts would have to be put into the new, incompatible* system
b. there will be a K-mount product now and then - e.g. they announced only one APS-C lens this year. Yet the K-mount was neglected under Hoya - there's so much lost ground to recover.

At this point, such a move means putting all your eggs into a risky, mirrorless basket: K-mount would be hurt, 645 line can't exist independently, Q is insignificant. If the mirrorless would fail - and we can see MILC makers struggling, years after being on that market - bye-bye, Pentax/Ricoh.
This is a "all cameras must be MILC, at any cost for the companies involved" strategy. It doesn't work that way.

OTOH what they're doing with the K-mount FF product line is strengthening the entire system. New K-mount FF lenses? Many/most (all?) useful on APS-C as well. Easy upgrade path, and you can start with the lenses. Confidence in a company which is investing on Pentax.

And later down the road, with a stronger K-mount, there might be possible to add a fourth mount without hurting the existing ones.

* I'm talking about forward incompatibility; backward compatibility is supporting the new system so it won't help at all people wanting to stay with APS-C/DSLRs.

mecrox, how many would want to use the D FA 150-450 on a tiny Nex or m4/3, with no autofocus and no stabilization?
10-12-2015, 05:09 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Do you think if Pentax released a short registration mirrorless camera, they would have finished it by now? I very much doubt that. If anything, it would take them longer to create that, plus the adapter containing the screw drive mechanism necessary to focus the majority of older k mount auto focus lenses.

I think we can be pretty safe to say that Pentax worked not at all on a full frame camera during all of Hoya's tenure and for the first couple of years of Ricoh's owner ship. That's the reason the unicorn hasn't showed up yet.

I guess I am pretty convinced that using k mount lenses on an SLR that gives you aperture on the body and auto focus is probably a better experience than using them on a mirrorless with a dumb adapter, but I guess we'll see come spring.
Ricoh must do what they think is best, no doubt about it. None of us is in a position to say what is best for them, only for us individually. However, to get back to the original point, I don't think it is complaining to point out that the ground has changed over the past decade and that a DSLR is not the easy answer it once might have been. I think it's realism. Naturally one hopes that Ricoh will sell enough FF DSLRs to deliver what they want - a profitable, flourishing division, one presumes - but the presence of alternatives these days mean that whichever path Ricoh choose, there will be losses as well as gains. TBH, I'm surprised Ricoh left it that long to start developing an FF. I guess it's quite hard to say. I expect that native AF and aperture control probably is far superior to using an adapter, but the chances are not a few folks who've jumped into using an adapter on an offbrand camera won't now revert to buying back into a Pentax body. Ricoh do need to get their skates on, imho. If they leave it too late then, yes, perhaps Ricoh might well be no worse off by starting over with a modern short-registration mount on the grounds there aren't enough high-spending K-mount users left.


Last edited by mecrox; 10-12-2015 at 05:15 AM.
10-12-2015, 05:22 AM   #84
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What do you mean by "Ricoh left it that long to start developing an FF"? They started it in 2012.

The DSLR is no longer the only practical answer, but it's still the obvious one. Ricoh expected the DSLR market to stabilize, and we might be seeing exactly that... a market smaller than in 2012, but still several times larger than the MILCs. Combined with all the other factors...

It makes no sense to make your strategies based on what people who jumped ship might want, and not on your customers'.
10-12-2015, 06:19 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
. Competition from mirrorless makes it that much harder for Ricoh when K-mount lenses can be used pretty darn well on existing cameras from AN Other brand by using an adapter.
And why do those adapters exist? - because often the camera manufacturers lenses are either completely overpriced or optically unimpressive. Do you really want pentax to do a uniquely pentax well designed Full frame weather sealed K mount DSLR or a half-baked mirrorless? Because there are already too many half-baked mirrorless "systems" out on the market as it is, and none of the manufacturers making them has any excuse for it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
how many would want to use the D FA 150-450 on a tiny Nex or m4/3, with no autofocus and no stabilization?
Now that you have mentioned it, i'm sure there is going to be at least one idiot out there gagging to try it, and complain loudly about the experience.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-12-2015 at 06:27 AM.
10-12-2015, 06:41 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
And why do those adapters exist? - because often the camera manufacturers lenses are either completely overpriced or optically unimpressive. Do you really want pentax to do a uniquely pentax well designed Full frame weather sealed K mount DSLR or a half-baked mirrorless? Because there are already too many half-baked mirrorless "systems" out on the market as it is, and none of the manufacturers making them has any excuse for it.
You are simply setting up an Aunt Sally. There is no reason for anything to be "half baked" and nor does it follow that adapters exist only because camera manufacturers are incapable of producing optically competent and reasonably priced lenses. Indeed if one wanted to throw that term around, it could just as easily be applied to many DSLRs and the lenses for them. What I'd like is for Ricoh to come out from behind the curtains and start acting like an outfit that wanted people's custom and intended to be around in a decade's time and still offering the best of the best. What that may be is up to them.
10-12-2015, 06:50 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I'd like is for Ricoh to come out from behind the curtains and start acting like an outfit that wanted people's custom and intended to be around in a decade's time and still offering the best of the best.
yeah, because we all know pentax is DOOOOOOOMED until they do that.

Don't you get pentax at all? they have NEVER engaged in the kind of attention whoreish antics their competitors have. For years, without fanfare, they release well designed photography products that find their way onto the market and people buy them. The fact that this site exists at all is proof that this has worked well enough for them.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Indeed if one wanted to throw that term around, it could just as easily be applied to many DSLRs and the lenses for them.
How many mirrorless cameras have a flash system that rivals or beats Nikon CLS? or has a mount native lens selection equal to or wider than Nikon or Canon?

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-12-2015 at 07:03 AM.
10-12-2015, 07:24 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
What I'd like is for Ricoh to come out from behind the curtains and start acting like an outfit that wanted people's custom and intended to be around in a decade's time and still offering the best of the best. What that may be is up to them.
What you want them to do is:
- to aggravate and ultimately lose their customer base
- to risk everything on a mirrorless system which might not make money for a long, long time

Olympus barely made into black; Samsung is said to leave camera business (they're denying it, but they only announced a single camera product this year!). The mirrorless is no silver bullet, it's nowhere near a magical solution which would make things "right".
10-12-2015, 08:42 AM - 1 Like   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Brie! Gorgonzola!
All good but they can't match this!


Otis' crew spent all night in the cold waiting for the jumper to jump. They need pictures, stop the delay, you will feel much better after you jump....or nothing at all!

Regards!
10-12-2015, 09:12 AM   #90
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"Why play catch up with companies like canikon?"

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/169-pentax-full-frame/305472-why-ricoh-ev...#ixzz3oN2RqTqM


Because Pentaxians were SCREAMING for it ! Not a day went by without somebody complaining about not having a FF. Some were considering switching to a Canon 5D or Sony AR 7 just so they could experience full frame.
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