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10-12-2015, 09:18 AM   #91
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Don't you get pentax at all? they have NEVER engaged in the kind of attention whoreish antics their competitors have. For years, without fanfare, they release well designed photography products that find their way onto the market and people buy them. The fact that this site exists at all is proof that this has worked well enough for them.
if pentax cameras were all that, why is canikon dominating the market?

you clearly haven't noticed that pentax market share has plummeted since ~2006, by more than 50%.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
How many mirrorless cameras have a flash system that rivals or beats Nikon CLS?
pentax certainly doesn't have a flash system that equals nikon cls.

i've only seen one flash upgrade to my af540fgz? how many flashes has nikon released in the last few years.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
or has a mount native lens selection equal to or wider than Nikon or Canon?
how long have mirrorless cameras been on the market, compared to dslrs? if you going to go on a rant, at least try and present logical facts that make sense

---------- Post added 10-12-15 at 09:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
And why do those adapters exist? - because often the camera manufacturers lenses are either completely overpriced or optically unimpressive.
oh? this sony 24-70/2.8 a-mount zoom was a perfect 5 out of 5 in b&h reviews: Sony 24-70mm f/2.8 Carl Zeiss T* Alpha A-Mount Standard SAL2470Z

you've evidently never seen this minolta/sony a-mount lens before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_STF_135mm_f/2.8_T4.5#SAL-135F28 ...no company has ever produced a comparable 135mm prime.

those are but two examples, there are many minolta/sony a-mount lenses that are worthy of adapters, just like there are many pentax lenses that are worthy of k-mount mirrorless adapters.

that's not relevant to the current lenses being produced for e-mount, nor for k-mount either.


Last edited by osv; 10-12-2015 at 09:38 AM.
10-12-2015, 09:38 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if pentax cameras were all that, why is canikon dominating the market?
For many reasons; Pentax started to lose ground way before digital, about when the migration to autofocus took place; perhaps even before (bad timing on launching the KA lens line).
The transition to autofocus caught them in a clearly inferior market position to Canon/Nikon. Combine that with a late start (first DSLR project failing and being cancelled), which was quite timid. Combine that with a successful restart (K10D) but with the momentum lost when Hoya forcibly took over. Combine that with years of cost cutting and downsizing.
And you'll find out why they weren't able to recover.

However... they're still surviving (and apparently they're making a profit), which is amazing considering all the above. Other companies which didn't had to go through a hostile takeover and being sold aren't doing much better.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you clearly haven't noticed that pentax market share has plummeted since ~2006, by more than 50%.
In September 2006, Pentax announced the amazing (for its class) K10D. I doubt there was any decline until after 2008.
And as usual, there's a simpler explanation than the "I hate DSLRs so they must be at fault": Hoya neglected Pentax. You can see this clearly watching the new lens introduction: there was a spike in 2008 (lenses prepared by the old Pentax Corporation), then it was all downhill. A neglected system is bound to lose users.
10-12-2015, 10:03 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
yeah, because we all know pentax is DOOOOOOOMED until they do that.

Don't you get pentax at all? they have NEVER engaged in the kind of attention whoreish antics their competitors have. For years, without fanfare, they release well designed photography products that find their way onto the market and people buy them. The fact that this site exists at all is proof that this has worked well enough for them.

How many mirrorless cameras have a flash system that rivals or beats Nikon CLS? or has a mount native lens selection equal to or wider than Nikon or Canon?
You do realize how revealing your post is? Life is generally sunnier when one drops the unmanaged A word. Part of the pleasure of an internet forum like this is that there is a wide variety of experience on offer and that is how I learn. Expecting folks to agree with you isn't going to work, bold caps or no. Our common interest is that the Pentax brand prospers under Ricoh. There will never be a single opinion on that, not least in a rapidly changing and evolving market for digital camera equipment. Dismissing anyone not of your view as an "idiot" and an advocate of the "half-baked" and "whoreish" isn't worthy of comment.
10-24-2015, 07:41 PM - 1 Like   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
pentax certainly doesn't have a flash system that equals nikon cls. i've only seen one flash upgrade to my af540fgz? how many flashes has nikon released in the last few years.
Pentax has had wireless flash since the K100D back in 2006. I recently watched a B&H video (from 2011) and the canikon guy doing the presentation was so happy because canon had recently released the ability to shoot line of sight wireless. And people say Pentax is always behind the big two. I am happy and more importantly my clients are happy with images I take for them. All this bashing on Pentax just kills me. If it sucks so bad go join canikon forums. The rest of us Pentax lovers will be right here doing our thing.

---------- Post added 10-24-15 at 10:45 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
or has a mount native lens selection equal to or wider than Nikon or Canon?
I have 5 bodies and 22 lenses. What would I do with more selection? Stack them together?

10-25-2015, 02:53 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by macman24054 Quote

---------- Post added 10-24-15 at 10:45 PM ----------

I have 5 bodies and 22 lenses. What would I do with more selection? Stack them together?
That's not many at all. When I feel my stock of cameras and lenses has grown too big and needs using up, I like to drizzle them with olive oil, sprinkle with rosemary and bake to a warm golden toastiness. Seriously, everyone's needs are different. One person will never need a tilt-shift special while the next guy may need one quite a lot, ditto with long telephotos, etc. A reasonably wide selection of good modern lenses is pretty important, I'd have thought, with a very good equipment rental scheme to back it up (which, top marks, Pentax do have where I live) for quality items that one only needs from time to time.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-25-2015 at 03:26 AM.
10-25-2015, 03:45 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if pentax cameras were all that, why is canikon dominating the market?

you clearly haven't noticed that pentax market share has plummeted since ~2006, by more than 50%.



pentax certainly doesn't have a flash system that equals nikon cls.

i've only seen one flash upgrade to my af540fgz? how many flashes has nikon released in the last few years.



how long have mirrorless cameras been on the market, compared to dslrs? if you going to go on a rant, at least try and present logical facts that make sense

---------- Post added 10-12-15 at 09:36 AM ----------



oh? this sony 24-70/2.8 a-mount zoom was a perfect 5 out of 5 in b&h reviews: Sony 24-70mm f/2.8 Carl Zeiss T* Alpha A-Mount Standard SAL2470Z

you've evidently never seen this minolta/sony a-mount lens before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_STF_135mm_f/2.8_T4.5#SAL-135F28 ...no company has ever produced a comparable 135mm prime.

those are but two examples, there are many minolta/sony a-mount lenses that are worthy of adapters, just like there are many pentax lenses that are worthy of k-mount mirrorless adapters.

that's not relevant to the current lenses being produced for e-mount, nor for k-mount either.
Maybe the issue is that FE mount lenses aren't actually that great. You posted Roger Cicala's optical bench testing of some of them and it didn't look great. Looks like Sony under-engineers their lenses and then uses a lot of software tweaks on the RAW to get them there.

Once you've decided that you aren't going to use the native mount lenses, then it is only a question of what mount you will use. The alpha mount has the benefit of having more automation than k mount lenses on A7 cameras -- if you have the right adapter, but that is just a decision that you have to make. Adding an adapter isn't ideal, even if it lets you shoot any lens "ever made."
10-25-2015, 04:54 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by macman24054 Quote
Pentax has had wireless flash since the K100D back in 2006. I recently watched a B&H video (from 2011) and the canikon guy doing the presentation was so happy because canon had recently released the ability to shoot line of sight wireless. And people say Pentax is always behind the big two.
This doesn't sound right. The Canon 580EX had wireless controls and it was released back in 2004, so their light show type of IR wireless flash has gone back at least that far (they added radio recently).

I believe the first Canon body with a built in flash that could control off-camera flashes wirelessly (without the need for an extra flash or special controller in the hot shoe) was the 7d from 2009. In that regard they were behind Pentax, who had this feature in the k10d (but not the k100d). Both companies started adding this feature to the lower tier bodies as time went on. Maybe it was the first rebel (the T3i from 2011) or whichever one in the 40/50/60/70d line that added this feature that was mentioned in the video.
10-25-2015, 07:42 AM   #98
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From the initial poster: I think your idea already exist. On tablets and phone they are instagram, lightroom and many other picture editors. You can edit your picture on a tablet from more and more camera. Pentax has it. Many compacts mirorless and APSC have it. You can also fully control the camera from it.

As for camera that target different segment there are many available. The Olympus pen for example clearly target females and hipsters. And let's be honest in term of design it is beautiful. It is also small and light and the camera is VERY capable. The main issue is the ergonomics suffer from such small form factor. The premium compact segment target more males but is able to take nice pictures and to stay really small. Sony APSC mirorless is also a massive success for new photographers that look for something better than a phone or compact camera but still want to keep it light...

10-25-2015, 07:49 AM   #99
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From the initial poster: I think your idea already exist. On tablets and phone they are instagram, lightroom and many other picture editors. You can edit your picture on a tablet from more and more camera. Pentax has it. Many compacts mirorless and APSC have it. You can also fully control the camera from it.

As for camera that target different segment there are many available. The Olympus pen for example clearly target females and hipsters. And let's be honest in term of design it is beautiful. It is also small and light and the camera is VERY capable. The main issue is the ergonomics suffer from such small form factor. The premium compact segment target more males but is able to take nice pictures and to stay really small. Sony APSC mirorless is also a massive success for new photographers that look for something better than a phone or compact camera but still want to keep it light...

The reason to target FF is simple: most of the APSC sell (mirrorless included) match people that buy 1 mid/entry level camera every few year (7 years on average from statistics). That's people spending in the 300-1200$ range every 7 years. Because the market is very competitive you don't make much per sale. You can hope to maybe make a benefit of 50-100$ out of each one.

People that buy an FF also typically want many lenses and accessories. They are more likely to spend 3000-10000$ every 7 years. You can hope to make a benefit of 500-5000$ from each one.
10-25-2015, 08:31 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
This doesn't sound right. The Canon 580EX had wireless controls and it was released back in 2004, so their light show type of IR wireless flash has gone back at least that far (they added radio recently).

I believe the first Canon body with a built in flash that could control off-camera flashes wirelessly (without the need for an extra flash or special controller in the hot shoe) was the 7d from 2009. In that regard they were behind Pentax, who had this feature in the k10d (but not the k100d). Both companies started adding this feature to the lower tier bodies as time went on. Maybe it was the first rebel (the T3i from 2011) or whichever one in the 40/50/60/70d line that added this feature that was mentioned in the video.
I stand corrected. The add on to the 100D was PTTL. I was commenting on the video that I watched. I really don't keep up that much with the big 2. I just love Pentax and can't stand people who bash it. My first picture I ever took was on a Spotomatic 2. I have only owned one camera that was not Pentax since (a Minolta 35mm). I love learning about them and what I can create with them. Not how bad they are or how they don't stack up.

---------- Post added 10-25-15 at 11:50 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That's not many at all. When I feel my stock of cameras and lenses has grown too big and needs using up, I like to drizzle them with olive oil, sprinkle with rosemary and bake to a warm golden toastiness. Seriously, everyone's needs are different. One person will never need a tilt-shift special while the next guy may need one quite a lot, ditto with long telephotos, etc. A reasonably wide selection of good modern lenses is pretty important, I'd have thought, with a very good equipment rental scheme to back it up (which, top marks, Pentax do have where I live) for quality items that one only needs from time to time.
I am not saying my following statement applies to you. Far to many times people buy the latest and greatest because they feel it will make them a better photographer. That could not be father from the truth. A photographer is only as good as their imagination and their knowledge of their equipment and photography. I have learned over the years that no equipment can make up for knowledge. At this point, my gear purchases are never based on the latest and greatest stuff. I spend my money on gear that will allow me to more easily achieve the results I need. With the selection of bodies and lenses that I already have there is very little I can not achieve in photography.

Last edited by macman24054; 10-25-2015 at 11:12 AM.
10-25-2015, 08:55 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Maybe the issue is that FE mount lenses aren't actually that great.
i think that most zooms in general are weak, and some fe-mount zooms are definitely worse than that especially when it comes to q.c... but fortunately sony mirrorless cameras can mount ef and a-mount zooms that have full af control onto e-mount cameras, with rumors of an electronic-capable nikon adapter also coming in the future.

if your k-mount lens design sucks, you don't have any alternatives, and you never will... that's the problem with buying into a closed-platform mount on dslrs.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Looks like Sony under-engineers their lenses and then uses a lot of software tweaks on the RAW to get them there.
camera companies have been doing distortion control in-camera for quite awhile, here is a nikon firmware update from 2012:
"Nikon updates lens distortion control data for many DSLR cameras"
Read more on NikonRumors.com: Nikon updates lens distortion control data for many DSLR cameras | Nikon Rumors

canikon has been releasing lenses with issues since the dawn of dslrs, see this 24-105 f/4L, that has over 4% distortion:
LensRentals.com - You CAN Correct It In Post, but . . .
10-25-2015, 09:02 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i think that most zooms in general are weak, and some fe-mount zooms are definitely worse than that especially when it comes to q.c... but fortunately sony mirrorless cameras can mount ef and a-mount zooms that have full af control onto e-mount cameras, with rumors of an electronic-capable nikon adapter also coming in the future.

if your k-mount lens design sucks, you don't have any alternatives, and you never will... that's the problem with buying into a closed-platform mount on dslrs.



camera companies have been doing distortion control in-camera for quite awhile, here is a nikon firmware update from 2012:
"Nikon updates lens distortion control data for many DSLR cameras"
Read more on NikonRumors.com: Nikon updates lens distortion control data for many DSLR cameras | Nikon Rumors

canikon has been releasing lenses with issues since the dawn of dslrs, see this 24-105 f/4L, that has over 4% distortion:
LensRentals.com - You CAN Correct It In Post, but . . .
Oh sure no lense is perfect... Just that Sony E and FE lense are more among the bad players on E/FE mount. I think some m4/3 lenses from other brand have the same issue. Canikon and Pentax on their DSLR mount are significantly better performers.

Adapter are great, especially when they come with full AF support but that not as conveniant as native lenses. If I was planning to use most a-mount lenses I would look for an a-mount camera, not FE mount to be honest.
10-25-2015, 09:20 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by macman24054 Quote
I stand corrected. The add on to the 100D was PTTL. I was commenting on the video that I watched. I really don't keep up that much with the big 2. I just love Pentax and can't stand people who bash it.
that sounds like blind platform fanaticism.

QuoteOriginally posted by macman24054 Quote
I spend my money on gear that will allow me to more easily achieve the results I need. With the selection of bodies and lenses that I already have there is very little I can not achieve in photography.
what you want and what you do doesn't apply to everyone.

some people out here need ff, and some people need more options than what pentax offers.

---------- Post added 10-25-15 at 09:26 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Oh sure no lense is perfect... Just that Sony E and FE lense are more among the bad players on E/FE mount. I think some m4/3 lenses from other brand have the same issue. Canikon and Pentax on their DSLR mount are significantly better performers.
the L-glass example with 4% distortion is not a "significantly better performer"... all camera systems have weak performing lenses, your unsubstantiated generalizations are meaningless.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Adapter are great, especially when they come with full AF support but that not as conveniant as native lenses. If I was planning to use most a-mount lenses I would look for an a-mount camera, not FE mount to be honest.
let's quantify that opinion...

you've never owned nor shot a ff camera, have you ever even owned an e-mount camera before... you have no experience with electronic adapters.

Last edited by osv; 10-25-2015 at 09:27 AM.
10-25-2015, 10:47 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i think that most zooms in general are weak, and some fe-mount zooms are definitely worse than that especially when it comes to q.c... but fortunately sony mirrorless cameras can mount ef and a-mount zooms that have full af control onto e-mount cameras, with rumors of an electronic-capable nikon adapter also coming in the future.

if your k-mount lens design sucks, you don't have any alternatives, and you never will... that's the problem with buying into a closed-platform mount on dslrs.



camera companies have been doing distortion control in-camera for quite awhile, here is a nikon firmware update from 2012:
"Nikon updates lens distortion control data for many DSLR cameras"
Read more on NikonRumors.com: Nikon updates lens distortion control data for many DSLR cameras | Nikon Rumors

canikon has been releasing lenses with issues since the dawn of dslrs, see this 24-105 f/4L, that has over 4% distortion:
LensRentals.com - You CAN Correct It In Post, but . . .
I'm happy with my k mount lenses, so that isn't a big deal to me.

As to the Sony thing, it wouldn't be a big deal if it was optional whether or not to apply the lens corrections, but it looks as though it is baked right into the RAW and it is impossible to fully turn off the lens corrections. Finally, it is not unusual to see that level of distortion with a 4x zoom, but these are primes we are talking about.
10-25-2015, 11:16 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
you've never owned nor shot a ff camera, have you ever even owned an e-mount camera before... you have no experience with electronic adapters.
Are you sure or are you probing water? You are wrong here, sorry.
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