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10-12-2015, 04:04 PM - 2 Likes   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
I know, I know, don't get into it over Facebook. What was supposed to be a rather innocuous comment of "boo hoo, more crop system hating <sniff>", I ended up being pretty taken aback by her provided reasoning.

Attachment 284838

(I admit I may have been a bit snarky towards the end).

So hurry up Ricoh - I have pictures to take outdoors, so stop delaying the FF so I can be able to do that

-Heie
Heie, you're an amazing ambassador for Pentax. I've watched your youtube video quite a few times, and I always think 'this guy is doing Pentaxians proud', and I love you for it (in a plutonic sort of way).

In this case, however, I think you've let your emotions run riot. Having read the girl's posts, she was concerned about the noise and usability of photos from crop sensors, rather than 'weather sealing'.

As a wedding shooter myself, I agree with her. I use Pentax gear, but I am DESPERATE for a FF option for the better high-iso and noise quality in murky conditions.

Thankfully I live in Australia so outdoors is never too murky and I can (just) get by with crop. Dark church and reception venues is another story though...

If/when Pentax gets the FF out, and if I ever need a second shooter, I'll be asking for the same as she did (actually more.....just a 50mm?)

10-12-2015, 08:09 PM - 1 Like   #62
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IMO...

QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
I know, I know, don't get into it over Facebook. What was supposed to be a rather innocuous comment of "boo hoo, more crop system hating <sniff>", I ended up being pretty taken aback by her provided reasoning.

Attachment 284838

(I admit I may have been a bit snarky towards the end).

So hurry up Ricoh - I have pictures to take outdoors, so stop delaying the FF so I can be able to do that

-Heie
Have to say I agree (for the most part) with the photog. Hear me out.

It's not because aps-c is incapable of creating nice images, it's because it's simply harder to create as-nice images in situations where size isn't a factor in the image creation. The photog has realized that through experience, and finding a really good photographer on short notice who can 'make up the difference' isn't a given.

Also, she didn't give this reason but it would be a biggie for me - low-light AF lock is often incredibly important in some of these situations, and right now the best AF is on FF DSLR (still, for the time being.)

Bottom line: It's her gig, she wants a certain tier of equipment as a ticket in and a sort of hedge against getting a GWAC (Guy With A Camera) vs. a photographer. There are a lot of GWAC's around.

If she had more time, she might look at some promising portfolios (crop and FF) and perhaps lend to or lease some equipment for the best shooters she finds. But it's her gig, her timeline, her rep on the line, and her concerns about low-light performance are legit.



.

---------- Post added 10-12-15 at 09:32 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote

Funny you mention that, 10 odd years ago when I was studying at university I was looking for part time work. I applied for jobs at some of the best camera stores - thinking that my extensive knowledge of cameras, and how to repair them might prove a useful asset. One of the managers who interviewed me was purely a salesman, he didn't know much about the work of Leibovitz,Eggleston,Stieglitz or Weston. He didn't know much about cameras beyond reciting marketing blurbs and memorizing spec sheets. Needless to say I didn't get the job, probably because of my inability to hide my contempt for those who have no empathy for their customers and are only out to sell stuff that their customers don't really need.
Translation: "I screwed up the interview." (I KID)

Last edited by jsherman999; 10-12-2015 at 08:39 PM.
10-13-2015, 12:37 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Translation: "I screwed up the interview."
I'll admit it my inability to fake it 'til I make it as been the bane of any attempt to get work in the retail sector. However, I'm not above giving sales reps a hard time. I had a chat to the Australian Leica representative a few weeks ago and I couldn't help but twist the knife over the ergonomic and operational superiority of the Konikca Hexar RF Vs the Leica M7.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-13-2015 at 12:44 AM.
10-13-2015, 02:48 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Have to say I agree (for the most part) with the photog. Hear me out.

It's not because aps-c is incapable of creating nice images, it's because it's simply harder to create as-nice images in situations where size isn't a factor in the image creation. The photog has realized that through experience, and finding a really good photographer on short notice who can 'make up the difference' isn't a given.

Also, she didn't give this reason but it would be a biggie for me - low-light AF lock is often incredibly important in some of these situations, and right now the best AF is on FF DSLR (still, for the time being.)

Bottom line: It's her gig, she wants a certain tier of equipment as a ticket in and a sort of hedge against getting a GWAC (Guy With A Camera) vs. a photographer. There are a lot of GWAC's around.

If she had more time, she might look at some promising portfolios (crop and FF) and perhaps lend to or lease some equipment for the best shooters she finds. But it's her gig, her timeline, her rep on the line, and her concerns about low-light performance are legit.



.

---------- Post added 10-12-15 at 09:32 PM ----------



Translation: "I screwed up the interview." (I KID)
I really disagree, Jay, in the sense that I think glass and composition skills are every bit as important as the size of your sensor. If you have a K3 and the FA limiteds versus someone with a 6D and a kit lens and a 50 f1.8, the person with the K3 will have the advantage.

My wife does shoot weddings with a K3 and she does well with the gear that she has. Would an extra stop of high iso ability help? Sure, but APS-C has come along way over time and you can get decent iso 3200 photos on it and that's usually good enough. Learning to use flash is a more important skill and has made a lot bigger difference for her than going full frame would have done.

10-13-2015, 07:32 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Have to say I agree (for the most part) with the photog. Hear me out.

It's not because aps-c is incapable of creating nice images, it's because it's simply harder to create as-nice images in situations where size isn't a factor in the image creation. The photog has realized that through experience, and finding a really good photographer on short notice who can 'make up the difference' isn't a given.

Also, she didn't give this reason but it would be a biggie for me - low-light AF lock is often incredibly important in some of these situations, and right now the best AF is on FF DSLR (still, for the time being.)

If she had more time, she might look at some promising portfolios (crop and FF) and perhaps lend to or lease some equipment for the best shooters she finds. But it's her gig, her timeline, her rep on the line, and her concerns about low-light performance are legit.
I don't disagree with you on most of this, but I don't think she knows enough about the subject to have come to these conclusions. We shoot with multiple systems and have for years. The biggest issue that we run into is keeping a consistent look throughout the wedding album. When you throw in different brands you get different color profiles and that makes editing the RAW files for a consistent look more time consuming. Then if you are really a glutton for punishment you shoot with a mixed bag of lenses and make color profiling even more challenging.

I have a friend who uses a modified VSCO preset for most of his wedding work. This helps him keep a consistent look to his wedding work since all images get similar processing. If I showed up with my K-3 he would kill me. VSCO doesn't support Pentax color profiles except through the Adobe standard and that doesn't look the same as his Canon 5DIII with the same preset.

I think the reason the photographer is insisting on someone with a FF camera it that is generally indicates that the photographer has invested a little more into developing their skill. Does it always mean that? NO. There are a lot of idiots running around with FF cameras and no idea what they are doing. As a general rule of thumb this true especially in the Canon and Nikon world. There are a million EOS Rebel wedding shooters out there and that is who she is probably trying to eliminate. Does this also eliminate talented APS-C and M4/3 shooters? Yes, but this isn't a perfect world.
10-13-2015, 12:33 PM - 1 Like   #66
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I appreciate your enthusiasm for Pentax, especially the weather sealing and durability (which had nothing to do with her comments that I can see), but honestly it looks like you trolled her. You had no interest in the possible job but decided to comment anyway, because someone was 'wrong' on the interwebs? From the outset can you honestly say you thought this would go any other way? Or after her reply when you felt you would keep egging her on? I'm just not sure what your motivations or expectations were here, but you could have just ignored it and not caused strife in a strangers day.

You're generally a great ambassador for the brand, but this wasn't terribly classy imo, and I'd guess did nothing positive towards her view of the Pentax brand or its users.
10-13-2015, 02:00 PM   #67
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I always find posts like this one very odd, we first have a person running a business that is looking for someone to help assist them for an event. They have an opinion and set what they want for equipment that the applicant needs to have, then we have an individual come along stirring up trouble just to prove my brand can too.
What would have happened if that same person required a MF camera, would we see the second person interject?
I have the feeling that the answer would be no. Only because a brand of camera and the size of the sensors falls outside what pentax has some feel that the pentax brand needs protection. Pentax as a brand needs no protection as most people understand the quality of the brand.
10-13-2015, 03:04 PM   #68
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A common language American v's Australian thing that confuses me all the time..... American: K3 =$649..... Australian translation....K3=$1195..... definately two different languages!

10-13-2015, 03:20 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by noelpolar Quote
A common language American v's Australian thing that confuses me all the time..... American: K3 =$649..... Australian translation....K3=$1195..... definately two different languages!
Totally off-topic, LOL, but CR Kennedy's prices were comparable (if not slightly better) than B H Photo a year or two ago when the Aussie dollar was on parity with the US.

Try a UK vs Australian language translation (569 British pounds...)
10-13-2015, 03:41 PM   #70
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The boss has the right to ask for whatever they want. She's paying.

When I pay, I ask for what I want.

But then if she's asks for FF, gets no takers and ends up not getting what she wants because of her restriction, now she's an idiot. We'll never know. As for Jay's assertion that it's easier to get an FF person who knows how to take pictures than an APS-c shooter...., I'd love to see the documentation on that one. It goes with that old FF shooter axim, when you got nothing, just make stuff up. OF the 10 or so odd FF shooters I know, I wouldn't trust any of them with a wedding. That being said, the only wedding shooter I am in current contact with shoots Canon FF, although one of my old contacts before I moved shot Pentax. That was 6 years ago, and I've lost touch, so I have no idea what he's shooting now. But before I'm going to say, it;s easier to get an images with an FF, and more likely to find a shooter using FF, I'd want to have least spent a bit of time generating some info.

For a more reasonable perspective... https://www.reddit.com/r/photography/comments/34z9dj/does_anyone_use_or_know...who_uses_crop/

Last edited by normhead; 10-13-2015 at 03:54 PM.
10-13-2015, 06:57 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Have to say I agree (for the most part) with the photog. Hear me out.

It's not because aps-c is incapable of creating nice images, it's because it's simply harder to create as-nice images in situations where size isn't a factor in the image creation. The photog has realized that through experience, and finding a really good photographer on short notice who can 'make up the difference' isn't a given.

Also, she didn't give this reason but it would be a biggie for me - low-light AF lock is often incredibly important in some of these situations, and right now the best AF is on FF DSLR (still, for the time being.)

Bottom line: It's her gig, she wants a certain tier of equipment as a ticket in and a sort of hedge against getting a GWAC (Guy With A Camera) vs. a photographer. There are a lot of GWAC's around.

If she had more time, she might look at some promising portfolios (crop and FF) and perhaps lend to or lease some equipment for the best shooters she finds. But it's her gig, her timeline, her rep on the line, and her concerns about low-light performance are legit.

There's just so many possible combinations of camera users out there that it cannot be asserted that a guy with a FF is more likely a better photographer.
I don't know about the US, but here in Singapore, you are as likely to have a GWC using a FF as a poor student with aps-c that is better than some pros.
I've noticed in fact that many young guys, are highly driven, have loads to time to experiment/learn, learn very fast (esp the PP) and easily kick the axx of an older (more experienced) photographer who often sticking to old concepts and can't grasp software as well.

Having dabbled with weddings myself, I find that the camera plays very little importance after its met the low criteria of being a competent camera (in which case an old, slow focusing 5D or K7 is certainly fine).
The more important aspect is really the competence of the shooter.
Can he/she anticipate the shots (eg. where to stand to shoot for the walk in shot; when the groom will kiss the bride, etc)
Knowledge of setting the camera for the shot type (eg. shallow DOF ring close up; setting up enough DOF when it comes to the group shots; exposing for the brides dress; controlling the exposure to not over compensate for the dark church and over expose the bride/groom, etc)
Flash and knowing how to throw it to get softer directional lighting (many so called pros in the lower end of the market don't even bother and stick to the safe bet of a direct flash)
Being able to speak up and direct the wedding couple and relatives is important as well (for group shots, for key shots)



That said, she's the employer and I think its up to her to decide what she is comfortable with. (though it can be silly )
I also agree with some of the later comments that the reply to her was not necessary nor constructive to the Pentax cause.
10-14-2015, 01:18 AM   #72
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As a NC native, the moment I saw Chapel Hill and professional reputation, I knew what her motives were. After declining to shoot my best friend's wedding, I seconded the event last month in a driving rain chasing a draft horse pulled carriage up and down neighborhood roads. K-3 & Sigma EX II 50-150 with lens sleeved/body exposed, no problem and a great deal of appreciation from the bride for doing it. There's a lot to be said for having faith in your tools, preparation, and adaptability, FF or not.
10-21-2015, 09:51 AM   #73
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To me, a person's feelings are more important than the honor of a camera brand.
For goodness sake's it is A CAMERA...it doesn't care if you think it is awesome or if another person doesnt think it is weathersealed or cant take good pictures.
It is an inanimate object.
A person, however has feelings. And to put her down because she is not up to speed on camera specs is classless.
10-21-2015, 12:56 PM   #74
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The key to shooting in the rain is to make sure your lens hood is turned 'round the proper way...and not use a camera mounted flash. Well, unless you want to see the rain really clearly.

Not that I'd get close to shooting a wedding, I don't need that kind of stress!
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