FF is Better than Crop, to include Weather Resistance O.O

**Digitalis** · 10-09-2015, 07:35 PM - **1 Like**

"Uber High strung expectations and ways of working"

I have found that if you keep your appetites and expectations to a modest level, you will always have satisfaction. And if your work habits are stressing you out, perhaps you should examine them closely and remove anything causing stress.

Saying that APS-C cameras cannot produce sharp images....

Originally posted by Heie

I admit I may have been a bit snarky towards the end

That is excusable, considering the outright ignorance shown in her remarks.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-09-2015 at 07:41 PM.

mee · 10-10-2015, 01:59 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Digitalis

That is excusable, considering the outright ignorance shown in her remarks.

In my experiences, I've found that slamming someone's head on a table does not open their mind; aggression doesn't change minds, it closes them to further potential.

**Digitalis** · 10-10-2015, 03:34 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mee

I've found that slamming someone's head on a table does not open their mind

That depends on how hard you do it. Negative enforcement is a blunt tool, but it is a thing that even the basest creature can learn from.

The difference between ignorance and stupidity is larger than you think, and in the end it all boils down to the fact that the stupid don't know any better, but they can be taught. The willfully ignorant know better, deep in their defective reasoning is the knowledge that they are wrong, but they ignore it and espouse their own point of view regardless of whether it is accurate or not. For this very reason there is little to be gained in trying to enlighten a bigot, the more light you shine in, the tighter they squeeze their eyes shut.

jawsy · 10-10-2015, 04:11 AM

I'd been reading through some of my 2009-2011 era photography mags of late before stumbling onto this thread. The reviews and specs of the FF DSLR's on offer then read pretty much the same as for a modern APS-C, so it occurred to me after reading this particular thread that anyone who had a wedding shot with any sort of DLSR more than five years ago must have a crap wedding album.

Murfy · 10-10-2015, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by jawsy

I'd been reading through some of my 2009-2011 era photography mags of late before stumbling onto this thread. The reviews and specs of the FF DSLR's on offer then read pretty much the same as for a modern APS-C, so it occurred to me after reading this particular thread that anyone who had a wedding shot with any sort of DLSR more than five years ago must have a crap wedding album.

my wedding was shot in 2006 and the photographer used a nikon d2000, which was new at the time. my album is not crap. The reasons I hired him was he had a masters degree in photography, and he knew how to use a flash. I got married in jan 2006, I am thinking the d200 was what he used now, d2x didnt come out until june

which makes me ask this question being not familiar with wedding photography. if you are shotting in rain, low light and varying conditions, would you not use a flash anyway? wouldnt that be a little more flattering? I dont know, its why I ak asking. I clearly recall talking to a magazine photographer (he taught a local class on off camera flash) who said he always used a flash for weddings, and my photographer used one also.

jawsy · 10-10-2015, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by Murfy

my album is not crap.

I have a dry sense of humour. You might be over-thinking my post.

Murfy · 10-10-2015, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by jawsy

I have a dry sense of humour. You might be over-thinking my post.

Gotcha, ok, it is hard to tell tone. Most of the time I do think people are are being sarcastic, but you are very good

LensBeginner · 10-10-2015, 06:16 AM

Haters gonna hate; ignorants gonna ignore; full-framers, well...

Originally posted by mee

In my experiences, I've found that slamming someone's head on a table does not open their mind; aggression doesn't change minds, it closes them to further potential.

...but it might well open their head!

**Rondec** · 10-10-2015, 06:35 AM

The whole crop versus full frame debate is kind of silly. In the end, it really comes down to skill, not to gear. One stop difference in high iso performance is usually not the make or break factor in making a photo turn out. On the other hand, the ability to pose groups/couples, the ability to see light and use it are all key to getting the results that you want. My wife shoots weddings (she is shooting one today) with a K5 II and K3 and a bunch of Pentax lenses. And she gets good results. But she is pretty experienced at this point and know what she is doing and how to make the most of a situation.

That said, it is entirely possible that this photographer is using the "full frame factor" as a way of weeding out want to be photographers who own a T5i and think they are on top of the world with regard to photography since they now own a real camera.

normhead · 10-10-2015, 07:22 AM

What kills me is the number of guys I've hung out with , not pros but guys who might answer an add like that, who shoot full frame, and would probably totally mess her up. I wouldn't work with her even with APS-c. I can tell from her ad, she can't afford me.

Murfy · 10-10-2015, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

That said, it is entirely possible that this photographer is using the "full frame factor" as a way of weeding out want to be photographers who own a T5i and think they are on top of the world with regard to photography since they now own a real camera.

I see your point, but I do know a lot of people who buy a full frame, start shooting and then start advertising their services. Literally I had a friend (ex-friend now, not for that reason) who did it in less than a month. Then she started advertising mini-sessions for $150 for 30 minutes. She would then call me for photography help and advice. There are a lot of 'natural light' family/wedding/maternity/high school graduation photographers in our area

mee · 10-10-2015, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

That depends on how hard you do it. Negative enforcement is a blunt tool, but it is a thing that even the basest creature can learn from.

Yet 'positive punishment' (what I think you describe as 'negative enforcement') is a tool to be used with great discernment.. because it doesn't work the way you think: The Backfire Effect |

Originally posted by Digitalis

The difference between ignorance and stupidity is larger than you think, and in the end it all boils down to the fact that the stupid don't know any better, but at least they can be taught. The ignorant know better, deep in their defective reasoning is the knowledge that they are wrong, but they ignore it and do things their way anyhow. For this very reason there is little to be gained in trying to enlighten a bigot, the more light you shine in, the tighter they squeeze their eyes shut.

And your own definition only shows one factor different between both -- one 'side' ignores what they otherwise understand as the truth.

However, that view is untrue since this issue occurs in all people (as the article linked above details)... there are no sides... we're all the same and capable of the same type of bias.

**Kerrowdown** · 10-10-2015, 08:06 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by mee

Some people it is like talking to a brick wall

No that seems reserved around here for lens testing.

**Rondec** · 10-10-2015, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Murfy

I see your point, but I do know a lot of people who buy a full frame, start shooting and then start advertising their services. Literally I had a friend (ex-friend now, not for that reason) who did it in less than a month. Then she started advertising mini-sessions for $150 for 30 minutes. She would then call me for photography help and advice. There are a lot of 'natural light' family/wedding/maternity/high school graduation photographers in our area

I would think it is just sort of an initial criteria, after which she would want to see an example of the photographer's portfolio. Maybe a little like a basketball coach saying he doesn't recruit players who are under six feet tall. It doesn't say that everyone over six feet tall is a great player, but it is an initial qualification followed by an analysis of skill that will follow.

I'm a big fan of crop cameras. They are really nice, but I don't think we need to beat up a photographer because she chooses this criteria for her second shooter any more than if she shoots Canon and requests that the second shooter have a Canon as well. I don't think these are great criteria to choose a photographer, but it isn't any big deal if they are hers.

mee · 10-10-2015, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Kerrowdown

No that seems reserved around here for lens testing.

Such as?

We all show bias.. even I have (in this very thread).. it is a part of being human it seems.

10-10-2015, 03:34 AM - 1 Like	#18
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by mee I've found that slamming someone's head on a table does not open their mind That depends on how hard you do it. Negative enforcement is a blunt tool, but it is a thing that even the basest creature can learn from. The difference between ignorance and stupidity is larger than you think, and in the end it all boils down to the fact that the stupid don't know any better, but they can be taught. The willfully ignorant know better, deep in their defective reasoning is the knowledge that they are wrong, but they ignore it and espouse their own point of view regardless of whether it is accurate or not. For this very reason there is little to be gained in trying to enlighten a bigot, the more light you shine in, the tighter they squeeze their eyes shut. Last edited by Digitalis; 10-10-2015 at 06:50 PM.

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10-09-2015, 07:35 PM - 1 Like	#16
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	"Uber High strung expectations and ways of working" I have found that if you keep your appetites and expectations to a modest level, you will always have satisfaction. And if your work habits are stressing you out, perhaps you should examine them closely and remove anything causing stress. Saying that APS-C cameras cannot produce sharp images.... Originally posted by Heie I admit I may have been a bit snarky towards the end That is excusable, considering the outright ignorance shown in her remarks. Last edited by Digitalis; 10-09-2015 at 07:41 PM.

10-10-2015, 01:59 AM - 1 Like	#17
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by Digitalis That is excusable, considering the outright ignorance shown in her remarks. In my experiences, I've found that slamming someone's head on a table does not open their mind; aggression doesn't change minds, it closes them to further potential.

10-10-2015, 04:11 AM	#19
jawsy Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 422	I'd been reading through some of my 2009-2011 era photography mags of late before stumbling onto this thread. The reviews and specs of the FF DSLR's on offer then read pretty much the same as for a modern APS-C, so it occurred to me after reading this particular thread that anyone who had a wedding shot with any sort of DLSR more than five years ago must have a crap wedding album.

10-10-2015, 04:33 AM	#20
Murfy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2014 Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	Originally posted by jawsy I'd been reading through some of my 2009-2011 era photography mags of late before stumbling onto this thread. The reviews and specs of the FF DSLR's on offer then read pretty much the same as for a modern APS-C, so it occurred to me after reading this particular thread that anyone who had a wedding shot with any sort of DLSR more than five years ago must have a crap wedding album. my wedding was shot in 2006 and the photographer used a nikon d2000, which was new at the time. my album is not crap. The reasons I hired him was he had a masters degree in photography, and he knew how to use a flash. I got married in jan 2006, I am thinking the d200 was what he used now, d2x didnt come out until june which makes me ask this question being not familiar with wedding photography. if you are shotting in rain, low light and varying conditions, would you not use a flash anyway? wouldnt that be a little more flattering? I dont know, its why I ak asking. I clearly recall talking to a magazine photographer (he taught a local class on off camera flash) who said he always used a flash for weddings, and my photographer used one also.

10-10-2015, 04:43 AM	#21
jawsy Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 422	Originally posted by Murfy my album is not crap. I have a dry sense of humour. You might be over-thinking my post.

10-10-2015, 05:12 AM	#22
Murfy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2014 Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	Originally posted by jawsy I have a dry sense of humour. You might be over-thinking my post. Gotcha, ok, it is hard to tell tone. Most of the time I do think people are are being sarcastic, but you are very good

10-10-2015, 06:16 AM	#23
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Haters gonna hate; ignorants gonna ignore; full-framers, well... Originally posted by mee In my experiences, I've found that slamming someone's head on a table does not open their mind; aggression doesn't change minds, it closes them to further potential. ...but it might well open their head!

10-10-2015, 06:35 AM	#24
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	The whole crop versus full frame debate is kind of silly. In the end, it really comes down to skill, not to gear. One stop difference in high iso performance is usually not the make or break factor in making a photo turn out. On the other hand, the ability to pose groups/couples, the ability to see light and use it are all key to getting the results that you want. My wife shoots weddings (she is shooting one today) with a K5 II and K3 and a bunch of Pentax lenses. And she gets good results. But she is pretty experienced at this point and know what she is doing and how to make the most of a situation. That said, it is entirely possible that this photographer is using the "full frame factor" as a way of weeding out want to be photographers who own a T5i and think they are on top of the world with regard to photography since they now own a real camera.

10-10-2015, 07:22 AM	#25
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,448	What kills me is the number of guys I've hung out with , not pros but guys who might answer an add like that, who shoot full frame, and would probably totally mess her up. I wouldn't work with her even with APS-c. I can tell from her ad, she can't afford me.

10-10-2015, 07:24 AM	#26
Murfy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2014 Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	Originally posted by Rondec That said, it is entirely possible that this photographer is using the "full frame factor" as a way of weeding out want to be photographers who own a T5i and think they are on top of the world with regard to photography since they now own a real camera. I see your point, but I do know a lot of people who buy a full frame, start shooting and then start advertising their services. Literally I had a friend (ex-friend now, not for that reason) who did it in less than a month. Then she started advertising mini-sessions for $150 for 30 minutes. She would then call me for photography help and advice. There are a lot of 'natural light' family/wedding/maternity/high school graduation photographers in our area

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10-10-2015, 07:46 AM	#27
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by Digitalis That depends on how hard you do it. Negative enforcement is a blunt tool, but it is a thing that even the basest creature can learn from. Yet 'positive punishment' (what I think you describe as 'negative enforcement') is a tool to be used with great discernment.. because it doesn't work the way you think: The Backfire Effect \| Originally posted by Digitalis The difference between ignorance and stupidity is larger than you think, and in the end it all boils down to the fact that the stupid don't know any better, but at least they can be taught. The ignorant know better, deep in their defective reasoning is the knowledge that they are wrong, but they ignore it and do things their way anyhow. For this very reason there is little to be gained in trying to enlighten a bigot, the more light you shine in, the tighter they squeeze their eyes shut. And your own definition only shows one factor different between both -- one 'side' ignores what they otherwise understand as the truth. However, that view is untrue since this issue occurs in all people (as the article linked above details)... there are no sides... we're all the same and capable of the same type of bias.

10-10-2015, 08:06 AM - 2 Likes	#28
Kerrowdown PEG Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highlands of Scotland... "Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand" - William Blake Photos: Gallery Posts: 57,804	Originally posted by mee Some people it is like talking to a brick wall No that seems reserved around here for lens testing.

10-10-2015, 08:08 AM	#29
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by Murfy I see your point, but I do know a lot of people who buy a full frame, start shooting and then start advertising their services. Literally I had a friend (ex-friend now, not for that reason) who did it in less than a month. Then she started advertising mini-sessions for $150 for 30 minutes. She would then call me for photography help and advice. There are a lot of 'natural light' family/wedding/maternity/high school graduation photographers in our area I would think it is just sort of an initial criteria, after which she would want to see an example of the photographer's portfolio. Maybe a little like a basketball coach saying he doesn't recruit players who are under six feet tall. It doesn't say that everyone over six feet tall is a great player, but it is an initial qualification followed by an analysis of skill that will follow. I'm a big fan of crop cameras. They are really nice, but I don't think we need to beat up a photographer because she chooses this criteria for her second shooter any more than if she shoots Canon and requests that the second shooter have a Canon as well. I don't think these are great criteria to choose a photographer, but it isn't any big deal if they are hers.

10-10-2015, 08:22 AM	#30
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by Kerrowdown No that seems reserved around here for lens testing. Such as? We all show bias.. even I have (in this very thread).. it is a part of being human it seems.