When? Why? Full Frame

bertwert · 12-16-2015, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by kentster

is It now less than 25 mega pixels ?

Yes. It will be 11.11MP Divide FF MP by 2.25 to get crop MP: 25 / 2.25 = 11.111111111111111111111111111111...
You are cropping the image.

Originally posted by kentster

will the IQ be the same

It depends on the camera.

dansamy · 12-16-2015, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by kentster

One more full frame question.

If you are comparing 2 cameras... one FF One CS. both rated at 25 mega pixels.

If you shoot the FF in a Crop mode.... is It now less than 25 mega pixels ?

Shooting same subject...same conditions with a CS and a FF in 1.5 crop mode...will the IQ be the same ?

Yes. If you shoot the 25mp FF in crop mode, you're using significantly less surface area of the sensor & therefore, fewer pixels.

The pixel peepers will swear that the FF always beats crop IQ. That's not necessarily 100% true 100% of the time.

normhead · 12-16-2015, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by dansamy

Yes. If you shoot the 25mp FF in crop mode, you're using significantly less surface area of the sensor & therefore, fewer pixels.

The pixel peepers will swear that the FF always beats crop IQ. That's not necessarily 100% true 100% of the time.

Yes but they never post comparison images to prove it. That a load of hogwash. FF users are heavily invested in their systems, they have to justify the cost, they'll say anything to justify their purchase. I've not seen one image anywhere on the net that suggests a cropped D810 image is in anyway better than a k3 image or D7200 image. Of course that doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means I haven't seen it.

So, my response to that is "show me." These guys always, tell you what a great photographer they are, talk up their experience, post a few unrelated photos, and then say, "it's just an impression", they can't actually show you an example. Over the years the pattern has become quite recognizable.

Since I know wildlife guys who carry both FX and DX bodies at the same time, I'd love to ask one of these guys "why do these pros do that? What do they know that you don't?"

osv · 12-16-2015, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by kentster

One more full frame question.
If you are comparing 2 cameras... one FF One CS. both rated at 25 mega pixels.
If you shoot the FF in a Crop mode.... is It now less than 25 mega pixels ?

yes.

Originally posted by kentster

Shooting same subject...same conditions with a CS and a FF in 1.5 crop mode...will the IQ be the same ?

from a pq perspective, there is no point in buying a ff camera, and shooting it in crop mode... people out here still think that ff means 24mp, but ff really means 24-36mp+... when you start pushing lots of pixels around in post, and you see how good the dr/latitude is, and the benefits that come with downrezzing, you'll stop using crop glass on ff.

people who troll ff out here have: 1)never owned a digital ff camera, 2)never edited a ff raw file.

there could be mitigating circumstances in favor of shooting crop on a ff camera... like the evf in an a7* series camera being better than the evf in an a6000; for mf use a cropped 36-42mp a7* series would be easier to use, and give better focusing accuracy.

or better iso performance when shooting a7rii 4k video in super35 crop mode, vs. using the full sensor.

it'll be interesting to see of there are similar caveats with the pentax ff.

bertwert · 12-16-2015, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by osv

people out here still think that ff means 24mp, but ff really means 24-36mp+

No, FF means 24x36mm sensor. Nothing to do with MP.

osv · 12-16-2015, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by bertwert

No, FF means 24x36mm sensor. Nothing to do with MP.

no, ff can also mean film, that's what it was originally based on.

ff mp count has everything to do with dr, latitude, downrezzing, etc., in part because it's based on differences in sensor technology... the 42mp a7rii uses a bsi sensor, for instance, while the canon 50mp sensor is not bsi(it sucks, just like most canon ff sensors do).

just because it's 24x36mm, doesn't mean that it'll always take the same picture, and behave the same way in post.

a good example of all that is here: Sony A7R teams up with Canon glass

so relevant to this thread, if you crop a weak canon ff sensor, how will it compare to a cropped a7r/d810/pentaxff sensor photo...

bertwert · 12-16-2015, 11:39 AM

FF does not mean 24-36mp. It means sensor size of 24x36 (or 35mm film)

Originally posted by osv

ff mp count has everything to do with dr, latitude, downrezzing, etc.,

Yes but that doesn't define FF.

Originally posted by osv

doesn't mean that it'll always take the same picture, and behave the same way in post.

I never said that

Originally posted by osv

if you crop a weak canon ff sensor, how will it compare to a cropped a7r/d810 sensor photo

It depends...

Honestly I don't care much. But this is on Pentaxforums so we must argue.

**boriscleto** · 12-16-2015, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by bertwert

Honestly I don't care much. But this is on Pentaxforums so we must argue.

You will find it's rather like arguing with a brick wall...

bertwert · 12-16-2015, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

You will find it's rather like arguing with a brick wall...

Sounds about right...

normhead · 12-16-2015, 11:49 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by boriscleto

You will find it's rather like arguing with a brick wall...

It's worse. If you punch a brick wall, it doesn't break your computer monitor.

**boriscleto** · 12-16-2015, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by normhead

It's worse. If you punch a brick wall, it doesn't break your computer monitor.

Just your hand

osv · 12-16-2015, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by bertwert

FF does not mean 24-36mp. It means sensor size of 24x36 (or 35mm film)

Yes but that doesn't define FF.

yes, it does, just like the differences between film vs. digital defines it.

we'll have to agree to disagree about that.

Originally posted by bertwert

I never said that

not directed at you...

Originally posted by bertwert

Honestly I don't care much. But this is on Pentaxforums so we must argue.

true dat, lol... but more like crop people with format inferiority complexes must start arguments

same thing on most forums... m4/3 vs. aps-c for example.

most people who own ff don't care what happens in the crop world.

bertwert · 12-16-2015, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by osv

we'll have to agree to disagree about that.

OK.

Originally posted by osv

yes, it does,

But FF is a format, not a resolution...

**clackers** · 12-16-2015, 12:59 PM

Yep, the K-3 has more pixels than the flagship Canon or Nikon FF.

rawr · 12-16-2015, 01:27 PM

Relevant to this discussion. Remember this set of images of the 'plastic lump' mounting a DA 20-40?

Pentax have clearly been thinking about the crop lens issue a lot.

And there is this on the new FF, highlighting that Pentax are probably going to give us lots of options about how we are able to handle crop lenses on the FF body:

tl; dr - no need to fight over crop vs FF modes. With the K-1 it will be easy to work with both.

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12-16-2015, 10:12 AM	#31
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by kentster is It now less than 25 mega pixels ? Yes. It will be 11.11MP Divide FF MP by 2.25 to get crop MP: 25 / 2.25 = 11.111111111111111111111111111111... You are cropping the image. Originally posted by kentster will the IQ be the same It depends on the camera.

12-16-2015, 10:30 AM	#32
dansamy Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,450	Originally posted by kentster One more full frame question. If you are comparing 2 cameras... one FF One CS. both rated at 25 mega pixels. If you shoot the FF in a Crop mode.... is It now less than 25 mega pixels ? Shooting same subject...same conditions with a CS and a FF in 1.5 crop mode...will the IQ be the same ? Yes. If you shoot the 25mp FF in crop mode, you're using significantly less surface area of the sensor & therefore, fewer pixels. The pixel peepers will swear that the FF always beats crop IQ. That's not necessarily 100% true 100% of the time.

12-16-2015, 10:39 AM	#33
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by dansamy Yes. If you shoot the 25mp FF in crop mode, you're using significantly less surface area of the sensor & therefore, fewer pixels. The pixel peepers will swear that the FF always beats crop IQ. That's not necessarily 100% true 100% of the time. Yes but they never post comparison images to prove it. That a load of hogwash. FF users are heavily invested in their systems, they have to justify the cost, they'll say anything to justify their purchase. I've not seen one image anywhere on the net that suggests a cropped D810 image is in anyway better than a k3 image or D7200 image. Of course that doesn't mean there isn't one, it just means I haven't seen it. So, my response to that is "show me." These guys always, tell you what a great photographer they are, talk up their experience, post a few unrelated photos, and then say, "it's just an impression", they can't actually show you an example. Over the years the pattern has become quite recognizable. Since I know wildlife guys who carry both FX and DX bodies at the same time, I'd love to ask one of these guys "why do these pros do that? What do they know that you don't?"

12-16-2015, 11:03 AM	#34
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by kentster One more full frame question. If you are comparing 2 cameras... one FF One CS. both rated at 25 mega pixels. If you shoot the FF in a Crop mode.... is It now less than 25 mega pixels ? yes. Originally posted by kentster Shooting same subject...same conditions with a CS and a FF in 1.5 crop mode...will the IQ be the same ? from a pq perspective, there is no point in buying a ff camera, and shooting it in crop mode... people out here still think that ff means 24mp, but ff really means 24-36mp+... when you start pushing lots of pixels around in post, and you see how good the dr/latitude is, and the benefits that come with downrezzing, you'll stop using crop glass on ff. people who troll ff out here have: 1)never owned a digital ff camera, 2)never edited a ff raw file. there could be mitigating circumstances in favor of shooting crop on a ff camera... like the evf in an a7* series camera being better than the evf in an a6000; for mf use a cropped 36-42mp a7* series would be easier to use, and give better focusing accuracy. or better iso performance when shooting a7rii 4k video in super35 crop mode, vs. using the full sensor. it'll be interesting to see of there are similar caveats with the pentax ff.

12-16-2015, 11:07 AM	#35
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by osv people out here still think that ff means 24mp, but ff really means 24-36mp+ No, FF means 24x36mm sensor. Nothing to do with MP.

12-16-2015, 11:36 AM	#36
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by bertwert No, FF means 24x36mm sensor. Nothing to do with MP. no, ff can also mean film, that's what it was originally based on. ff mp count has everything to do with dr, latitude, downrezzing, etc., in part because it's based on differences in sensor technology... the 42mp a7rii uses a bsi sensor, for instance, while the canon 50mp sensor is not bsi(it sucks, just like most canon ff sensors do). just because it's 24x36mm, doesn't mean that it'll always take the same picture, and behave the same way in post. a good example of all that is here: Sony A7R teams up with Canon glass so relevant to this thread, if you crop a weak canon ff sensor, how will it compare to a cropped a7r/d810/pentaxff sensor photo...

12-16-2015, 11:39 AM	#37
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	FF does not mean 24-36mp. It means sensor size of 24x36 (or 35mm film) Originally posted by osv ff mp count has everything to do with dr, latitude, downrezzing, etc., Yes but that doesn't define FF. Originally posted by osv doesn't mean that it'll always take the same picture, and behave the same way in post. I never said that Originally posted by osv if you crop a weak canon ff sensor, how will it compare to a cropped a7r/d810 sensor photo It depends... Honestly I don't care much. But this is on Pentaxforums so we must argue.

12-16-2015, 11:46 AM	#38
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by bertwert Honestly I don't care much. But this is on Pentaxforums so we must argue. You will find it's rather like arguing with a brick wall...

12-16-2015, 11:48 AM	#39
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by boriscleto You will find it's rather like arguing with a brick wall... Sounds about right...

12-16-2015, 11:49 AM - 1 Like	#40
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by boriscleto You will find it's rather like arguing with a brick wall... It's worse. If you punch a brick wall, it doesn't break your computer monitor.

12-16-2015, 11:51 AM	#41
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by normhead It's worse. If you punch a brick wall, it doesn't break your computer monitor. Just your hand

12-16-2015, 12:17 PM	#42
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by bertwert FF does not mean 24-36mp. It means sensor size of 24x36 (or 35mm film) Yes but that doesn't define FF. yes, it does, just like the differences between film vs. digital defines it. we'll have to agree to disagree about that. Originally posted by bertwert I never said that not directed at you... Originally posted by bertwert Honestly I don't care much. But this is on Pentaxforums so we must argue. true dat, lol... but more like crop people with format inferiority complexes must start arguments same thing on most forums... m4/3 vs. aps-c for example. most people who own ff don't care what happens in the crop world.

12-16-2015, 12:26 PM	#43
bertwert Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Golden, BC Posts: 15,173	Originally posted by osv we'll have to agree to disagree about that. OK. Originally posted by osv yes, it does, But FF is a format, not a resolution...

12-16-2015, 12:59 PM	#44
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Yep, the K-3 has more pixels than the flagship Canon or Nikon FF.

12-16-2015, 01:27 PM	#45
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Relevant to this discussion. Remember this set of images of the 'plastic lump' mounting a DA 20-40? Pentax have clearly been thinking about the crop lens issue a lot. And there is this on the new FF, highlighting that Pentax are probably going to give us lots of options about how we are able to handle crop lenses on the FF body: tl; dr - no need to fight over crop vs FF modes. With the K-1 it will be easy to work with both.