Price of K1 (FF)

Kunzite · 01-18-2016, 01:18 PM - **1 Like**

There are people who want a D600-class camera, and there are people who want a camera in a class or two above. The K-1 is for the latter group. Is it that hard to accept?

richmondthefish · 01-18-2016, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

There are people who want a D600-class camera, and there are people who want a camera in a class or two above. The K-1 is for the latter group. Is it that hard to accept?

We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. There does not appear to be a big market for that latter group in 2016 as they would probably be shooting another system by now if they needed a camera in the class.

Wired · 01-18-2016, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Not so much within an existing lens mount and camera eco-system. It can however get quite expensive moving to another lens mount (or running with several at once ).

tell me about it... try moving from Pentax APSC to Nikon FF to Fuji APSC... thank god for tax write offs and part time income from shooting lol

---------- Post added 01-18-2016 at 01:51 PM ----------

Originally posted by richmondthefish

We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. There does not appear to be a big market for that latter group in 2016 as they would probably be shooting another system by now if they needed a camera in the class.

I wouldn't fault that logic at all.

I would assume the idea is flagship first, entry level second. that's been kind of the route with most manufacture it seems.

Kunzite · 01-18-2016, 01:51 PM

Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere. The people who would actually buy the K-1, instead of complaining about the price. Talking about that, who are the "we" from your post?

---------- Post added 18-01-16 at 10:54 PM ----------

Originally posted by Wired

I wouldn't fault that logic at all.

Logic? What logic? That's some made-up stuff in an attempt to dismiss the existence of a Pentax K-1 market.

It's not the same as your assumption that eventually Ricoh Imaging might have a 2-tier FF DSLR camera lineup.

Last edited by Kunzite; 01-18-2016 at 01:57 PM.

rawr · 01-18-2016, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by richmondthefish

If you are a Canon user you have an option of the 6D or D600 for Nikon users. These are sub $1500 FF cameras plus not to mention a used market full of FF models that can be had for under $1k.

Canon or Nikon [or Pentax] APS-C users can get an even cheaper Sony A7 FF if they want. No doubt some used Pentax digital FF's will be on the market too, in a short while.

And of course, if price and FF format is all that is guiding a user, film Pentaxes are full-frame... and lots are already available dirt cheap.

I agree it would be wise for Pentax to have tiers in it's FF offerings, like everyone else does. Sony/Canon/Nikon don't just offer pro-tier FF gear. Maybe a K-1 Lite will be released a little while after the K-1, like Nikon did when they first brought a FF to market (D3 battleship first, followed after a while by smaller, cheaper D700) .

Zygonyx · 01-18-2016, 02:49 PM

Don't worry, Pentax is doomed, but less than the nay-sayers

nomadkng · 01-18-2016, 03:05 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by richmondthefish

We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. There does not appear to be a big market for that latter group in 2016 as they would probably be shooting another system by now if they needed a camera in the class.

Um, I'm in that "group". I have half a dozen "pro" lenses in K-mount that have kept me in K-mount from a K10 through a K-3.

It would cost me close to 10k to switch to Nikon in glass alone, so I have held on by my fingernails, waiting for the Pentax FF. It's simple economics: Pay 13K to switch or 3K to stay. A no brainer, but with a statue of limitations. If the K1 isn't in the D810 class then yes I WILL switch because I have no use for a middle class FF and APS-C (K3) is inadequate as alternative.

Here's the thing, a FF is a "need" and having that that need allows me to justify a bigger price tag. I and others that need a feature packed FF are your market. A D600 class camera is merely a "want" or a "hope" for a different "market" and would not entice "my" group at all. I've said this in previous posts, if the K1 underwhelms due to performance or feature set, Pentax will lose MORE higher end users to other systems than they will gain in APS-C upgrades within the current customer base. Plus a D600 class FF is certainly not going to garner ANY attention for other brand owners who already have that brand's stable of glass. Why would they spend the money to switch? Talk about ho-hum. We waited this long for THIS?

There's already been a hundred+ "Do I need a FF?" threads, and my answer to each is: "If you're asking, then probably not." And chances are, 90% of those "on the fence" about a FF aren't going to pull the trigger, even if it's a $1500 camera. There's already enough arguments about the "advantage of FF v. APS-C", why would you spend $1500 when you can get a K3-2 for half the price? Are you really going to stick a DA18-55 on the K1 and call it good? Seriously, if that's your plan, you aren't (or shouldn't be) in the market for the K1.

The K1 is for those who have or will buy the 24-70 and probably the *15-30, and maybe the *70-200 as their basic kit. Or those who have the FA* 600/4 or one of several other legacy lenses from Sigma/Tamron. The K1 market is muttering under their breath where's my *300/2.8 and why wasn't the 24-70 a DFA*. It's not because we have unlimited budgets, but because we have expectations from our photography and finite definitions of our needs that only an upper echelon FF body can fulfill.

I honestly don't want a FF, I need a FF. I don't have a choice, really and by the end of 2016 I will be shooting FF, whether it's Pentax or Nikon. There's your market because I know I'm not alone.

Wired · 01-18-2016, 03:19 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kunzite

Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere. The people who would actually buy the K-1, instead of complaining about the price. Talking about that, who are the "we" from your post?[COLOR="Silver"]

I would have been in that boat with you... if not for my pair of Nikon bodies. I got impatient and my needs outgrew what I could do with the K3.

I don't doubt there will be quite a few who will upgrade just to use the FA Limited's again. Heck, when they drop in price/go used I'll be right there picking one up.

Depends on if you want to be an early adopter. I usually do, but I can hold off this time

Kunzite · 01-18-2016, 03:49 PM - **1 Like**

I have a very good offer of a second hand D800E, a lightly used camera in perfect condition. If instead of a K-1 Pentax/Ricoh made some cheap entry level thing, I would be a Nikonian now. The D800 series is amazing (amazingly huge as well

).

I don't mind paying the full price, if I'll get a perfectly working model. Perhaps I'll wait just a bit until other people are testing and OK-ing the camera

But waiting until the price drops significantly, that's lost time.

richmondthefish · 01-18-2016, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

The people who would actually buy the K-1, instead of complaining about the price. Talking about that, who are the "we" from your post?[COLOR="Silver"]

Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere.

---------- Post added 01-18-16 at 04:51 PM ----------

Originally posted by nomadkng

Um, I'm in that "group". I have half a dozen "pro" lenses in K-mount that have kept me in K-mount from a K10 through a K-3.

It would cost me close to 10k to switch to Nikon in glass alone, so I have held on by my fingernails, waiting for the Pentax FF. It's simple economics: Pay 13K to switch or 3K to stay. A no brainer, but with a statue of limitations. If the K1 isn't in the D810 class then yes I WILL switch because I have no use for a middle class FF and APS-C (K3) is inadequate as alternative.

I honestly don't want a FF, I need a FF. I don't have a choice, really and by the end of 2016 I will be shooting FF, whether it's Pentax or Nikon. There's your market because I know I'm not alone.

Ok so thats the primary target market. Current Pentax FF hold outs with a lot of investment in Pentax glass.

Zygonyx · 01-18-2016, 09:13 PM - **1 Like**

+1 with nomadkng and richmondthefish

Kunzite · 01-19-2016, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by richmondthefish

Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere.

Be a bit more descriptive, please; do you mean the people who won't buy the K-1 because it's not the cheapest camera ever?

Gimbal · 01-19-2016, 04:56 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by richmondthefish

We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently.

I guess car manufacturers face the same problem. Cars have been available for years now so everyone who needs a car has bought one by now. I don’t know why they are still making them.

richmondthefish · 01-19-2016, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Be a bit more descriptive, please; do you mean the people who won't buy the K-1 because it's not the cheapest camera ever?

I would say anyone who doesn’t need a FF Pentax camera looking in from the outside. If you have $13,000 in FF Pentax glass already and have been waiting for years for a FF digital Pentax body then that person is probably picking up the camera no matter what unless somehow the camera was junk(I doubt the K1 will be a dud). Where exactly the K1 lands in both performance and price at launch will determine whether or not the rest of photographers will decide to pick one up. If the price is indeed high then Pentax will have to back it up which I am rooting for them to do so.

Kunzite · 01-19-2016, 09:24 AM

No, you were not chosen to represent that group. More specifically, I didn't chose you to represent me - I don't need a FF camera, and I don't have $13,000 in FF Pentax glass already - yet I will most likely buy the camera, and some new lenses.
Many people who you consider to be "on your side" likely aren't.

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01-18-2016, 01:18 PM - 1 Like	#91
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	There are people who want a D600-class camera, and there are people who want a camera in a class or two above. The K-1 is for the latter group. Is it that hard to accept?

01-18-2016, 01:28 PM	#92
richmondthefish Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 221	Originally posted by Kunzite There are people who want a D600-class camera, and there are people who want a camera in a class or two above. The K-1 is for the latter group. Is it that hard to accept? We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. There does not appear to be a big market for that latter group in 2016 as they would probably be shooting another system by now if they needed a camera in the class.

01-18-2016, 01:50 PM	#93
Wired Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,519	Originally posted by rawr Not so much within an existing lens mount and camera eco-system. It can however get quite expensive moving to another lens mount (or running with several at once ). tell me about it... try moving from Pentax APSC to Nikon FF to Fuji APSC... thank god for tax write offs and part time income from shooting lol ---------- Post added 01-18-2016 at 01:51 PM ---------- Originally posted by richmondthefish We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. There does not appear to be a big market for that latter group in 2016 as they would probably be shooting another system by now if they needed a camera in the class. I wouldn't fault that logic at all. I would assume the idea is flagship first, entry level second. that's been kind of the route with most manufacture it seems.

01-18-2016, 01:51 PM	#94
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere. The people who would actually buy the K-1, instead of complaining about the price. Talking about that, who are the "we" from your post? ---------- Post added 18-01-16 at 10:54 PM ---------- Originally posted by Wired I wouldn't fault that logic at all. Logic? What logic? That's some made-up stuff in an attempt to dismiss the existence of a Pentax K-1 market. It's not the same as your assumption that eventually Ricoh Imaging might have a 2-tier FF DSLR camera lineup. Last edited by Kunzite; 01-18-2016 at 01:57 PM.

01-18-2016, 02:31 PM	#95
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by richmondthefish If you are a Canon user you have an option of the 6D or D600 for Nikon users. These are sub $1500 FF cameras plus not to mention a used market full of FF models that can be had for under $1k. Canon or Nikon [or Pentax] APS-C users can get an even cheaper Sony A7 FF if they want. No doubt some used Pentax digital FF's will be on the market too, in a short while. And of course, if price and FF format is all that is guiding a user, film Pentaxes are full-frame... and lots are already available dirt cheap. I agree it would be wise for Pentax to have tiers in it's FF offerings, like everyone else does. Sony/Canon/Nikon don't just offer pro-tier FF gear. Maybe a K-1 Lite will be released a little while after the K-1, like Nikon did when they first brought a FF to market (D3 battleship first, followed after a while by smaller, cheaper D700) .

01-18-2016, 02:49 PM	#96
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Don't worry, Pentax is doomed, but less than the nay-sayers

01-18-2016, 03:05 PM - 3 Likes	#97
nomadkng Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,448	Originally posted by richmondthefish We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. There does not appear to be a big market for that latter group in 2016 as they would probably be shooting another system by now if they needed a camera in the class. Um, I'm in that "group". I have half a dozen "pro" lenses in K-mount that have kept me in K-mount from a K10 through a K-3. It would cost me close to 10k to switch to Nikon in glass alone, so I have held on by my fingernails, waiting for the Pentax FF. It's simple economics: Pay 13K to switch or 3K to stay. A no brainer, but with a statue of limitations. If the K1 isn't in the D810 class then yes I WILL switch because I have no use for a middle class FF and APS-C (K3) is inadequate as alternative. Here's the thing, a FF is a "need" and having that that need allows me to justify a bigger price tag. I and others that need a feature packed FF are your market. A D600 class camera is merely a "want" or a "hope" for a different "market" and would not entice "my" group at all. I've said this in previous posts, if the K1 underwhelms due to performance or feature set, Pentax will lose MORE higher end users to other systems than they will gain in APS-C upgrades within the current customer base. Plus a D600 class FF is certainly not going to garner ANY attention for other brand owners who already have that brand's stable of glass. Why would they spend the money to switch? Talk about ho-hum. We waited this long for THIS? There's already been a hundred+ "Do I need a FF?" threads, and my answer to each is: "If you're asking, then probably not." And chances are, 90% of those "on the fence" about a FF aren't going to pull the trigger, even if it's a $1500 camera. There's already enough arguments about the "advantage of FF v. APS-C", why would you spend $1500 when you can get a K3-2 for half the price? Are you really going to stick a DA18-55 on the K1 and call it good? Seriously, if that's your plan, you aren't (or shouldn't be) in the market for the K1. The K1 is for those who have or will buy the 24-70 and probably the 15-30, and maybe the 70-200 as their basic kit. Or those who have the FA* 600/4 or one of several other legacy lenses from Sigma/Tamron. The K1 market is muttering under their breath where's my 300/2.8 and why wasn't the 24-70 a DFA. It's not because we have unlimited budgets, but because we have expectations from our photography and finite definitions of our needs that only an upper echelon FF body can fulfill. I honestly don't want a FF, I need a FF. I don't have a choice, really and by the end of 2016 I will be shooting FF, whether it's Pentax or Nikon. There's your market because I know I'm not alone.

01-18-2016, 03:19 PM - 1 Like	#98
Wired Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,519	Originally posted by Kunzite Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere. The people who would actually buy the K-1, instead of complaining about the price. Talking about that, who are the "we" from your post?[COLOR="Silver"] I would have been in that boat with you... if not for my pair of Nikon bodies. I got impatient and my needs outgrew what I could do with the K3. I don't doubt there will be quite a few who will upgrade just to use the FA Limited's again. Heck, when they drop in price/go used I'll be right there picking one up. Depends on if you want to be an early adopter. I usually do, but I can hold off this time

01-18-2016, 03:49 PM - 1 Like	#99
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I have a very good offer of a second hand D800E, a lightly used camera in perfect condition. If instead of a K-1 Pentax/Ricoh made some cheap entry level thing, I would be a Nikonian now. The D800 series is amazing (amazingly huge as well ). I don't mind paying the full price, if I'll get a perfectly working model. Perhaps I'll wait just a bit until other people are testing and OK-ing the camera But waiting until the price drops significantly, that's lost time.

01-18-2016, 04:42 PM	#100
richmondthefish Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 221	Originally posted by Kunzite The people who would actually buy the K-1, instead of complaining about the price. Talking about that, who are the "we" from your post?[COLOR="Silver"] Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere. ---------- Post added 01-18-16 at 04:51 PM ---------- Originally posted by nomadkng Um, I'm in that "group". I have half a dozen "pro" lenses in K-mount that have kept me in K-mount from a K10 through a K-3. It would cost me close to 10k to switch to Nikon in glass alone, so I have held on by my fingernails, waiting for the Pentax FF. It's simple economics: Pay 13K to switch or 3K to stay. A no brainer, but with a statue of limitations. If the K1 isn't in the D810 class then yes I WILL switch because I have no use for a middle class FF and APS-C (K3) is inadequate as alternative. I honestly don't want a FF, I need a FF. I don't have a choice, really and by the end of 2016 I will be shooting FF, whether it's Pentax or Nikon. There's your market because I know I'm not alone. Ok so thats the primary target market. Current Pentax FF hold outs with a lot of investment in Pentax glass.

01-18-2016, 09:13 PM - 1 Like	#101
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	+1 with nomadkng and richmondthefish

01-19-2016, 12:19 AM	#102
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by richmondthefish Me, for example; a few friends, some of the people here and many more elsewhere. Be a bit more descriptive, please; do you mean the people who won't buy the K-1 because it's not the cheapest camera ever?

01-19-2016, 04:56 AM - 1 Like	#103
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by richmondthefish We are just wondering who is that group. Most people who need a camera in a 'class or two above' would obviously be using Canon or Nikon currently. I guess car manufacturers face the same problem. Cars have been available for years now so everyone who needs a car has bought one by now. I don’t know why they are still making them.

01-19-2016, 08:26 AM	#104
richmondthefish Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 221	Originally posted by Kunzite Be a bit more descriptive, please; do you mean the people who won't buy the K-1 because it's not the cheapest camera ever? I would say anyone who doesn’t need a FF Pentax camera looking in from the outside. If you have $13,000 in FF Pentax glass already and have been waiting for years for a FF digital Pentax body then that person is probably picking up the camera no matter what unless somehow the camera was junk(I doubt the K1 will be a dud). Where exactly the K1 lands in both performance and price at launch will determine whether or not the rest of photographers will decide to pick one up. If the price is indeed high then Pentax will have to back it up which I am rooting for them to do so.

01-19-2016, 09:24 AM	#105
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	No, you were not chosen to represent that group. More specifically, I didn't chose you to represent me - I don't need a FF camera, and I don't have $13,000 in FF Pentax glass already - yet I will most likely buy the camera, and some new lenses. Many people who you consider to be "on your side" likely aren't.

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