[hjoseph7]

Everybody vote low, we don't want to give the people at Pentax any ideas...

[Wired]

Please tell us in detail the features Pentax omitted from the 645Z that allowed them to shave off 7+ grand.

---------- Post added 01-16-16 at 12:56 PM ----------




Right, which was the point I was trying to get Wired to understand. If Pentax could figure out how to get a medium format body to share R&D with the APS-C lineup it's certainly isn't out of the question they could do the same with the K1.

Part of it is the shared guts between the two. But the new FF is supposed to have an all new AF matrix, flash system, and more.....so a lot of the subsidy is gone for this new tech. Rioch also have the benefit of additional funds by an APS-C, Q, GR, WR, photo copiers, industrial controllers, etc. etc. So yes, they can subsidize their own 645z and the new FF. But if we look at history, the K3 vs D7100 for example... at launch the specs were very similar, but the K3 was the more expensive (slightly) camera. So I wouldn't rule out the FF still being more expensive if they are punching in the D810/5Dmk3 class of cameras.


anyways differences from 645z vs Phase One IQ250.

Phase One:
Better dealer support
better after sales support
Capture One Pro included with constant updates
tethering
better manufacture support
16 bit vs 14 bit
flash sync speed upto 1/2000" (vs 1/80") with leaf shutter lenses
leaf shutter lenses
modular tech solution (backs/cameras etc.)
4 year base warranty
new and updated lenses
integrated triggering of Profoto lights

and thats just off the top of my head. Pentax has weather sealing and a more traditional DSLR setup.


Think of it this way.... why buy a Audi A4 when you can get a VW Jetta. they have all the same tech don't they? So why is one more than double the price? Oh yea... advanced features, better manufacture support, better warranty...etc. etc.


Don't get me wrong, the 645z is a VERY nice camera. And having shot with both an IQ250 and a 645z in the past year I was very impressed with both. However, as a strobist, who has NO dealer support for Priolite anywhere near him.... I would never choose the 645z as the tool of choice for my photography. Yes, the 645z is easier to use coming from DSLR's, and it's a great too. But at this price point it's the right tool for the right job. Does this justify 10,000 vs 20,000? Depends on what your shooting I guess.... If your a landscape travel photographer who wants medium format... probably the 645z is a wiser way to spend your money. If your a studio fashion photographer... chances are the Pentax is lacking in all the areas you need.

[Kunzite]

Hold your horses; some of those items are not features (better dealer/after sales support). They are part of the reason for lower prices, of course, but you shouldn't use them to make the 645z itself appear as an inferior product, which it isn't.
Tethering is supported, for example, other "features" are debatable. And I see you're barely remarking weather sealing and "a more traditional DSLR setup" as the 645Z's advantage. That's biased.

[Wired]

Hold your horses; some of those items are not features (better dealer/after sales support). They are part of the reason for lower prices, of course, but you shouldn't use them to make the 645z itself appear as an inferior product, which it isn't.
Tethering is supported, for example, other "features" are debatable. And I see you're barely remarking weather sealing and "a more traditional DSLR setup" as the 645Z's advantage. That's biased.

better manufacture support to me is a feature. and how am I barely remarking the weather sealing and a more traditional setup? They were stated right after my list of IQ250 benefits, and they are VERY strong benefits depending on the person.

No where in my post have I stated the 645z as an inferior product. I'm stating features/advantages/benefits comparing two products that do little more than share the same image sensor. In fact I even ended off my post saying it is a very nice camera. There was a point in time (august) where I had a 645z for a week on loan from my local camera store and was seriously considering moving all my Nikon full-frame stuff over to it. But it came up short everywhere I needed it most, especially after I was lucky to visit a friends commercial studio and shoot on the IQ which picked up everywhere the 645z failed for me. Read that specifically... FOR ME. I'm a strobist. you go through my flickr and almost every image has flash of some kind. The 645z comes up even shorter in the flash department than the K3 does. And the argument "go get some Priolites then" is not valid as there is no Canadian distributor, and I like warranty and after sales support.

Tethering is finally supported yes, but have you used Capture One tethering with an IQ250? We are talking similar to how the Fuji XT1 does wifi vs the K3 with a flu-card... it's way different and way better.

[Kunzite]

We were talking about factors which would make the 645z much cheaper than the competition. The precise question was:

How is Pentax able to sell the 645Z at half the price of another medium format body with the same cutting edge sensor?

and your answer:

lack of features.

How does it look like?

Tell me, how exactly would lack of leaf shutter lenses decrease the price of the 645Z? How exactly would market specific conditions as PrioLite distribution network would make the 645Z so much cheaper?

As for tethering, I'm aware of 3 such methods: WiFi (FluCard), through ImageTransmitter 2 and through a Lightroom plug-in.

Sorry, but I can't take your post except as a "why the 645Z doesn't work for me" rant.

[Wired]

We were talking about factors which would make the 645z much cheaper than the competition. The precise question was:

and your answer:

How does it look like?

Tell me, how exactly would lack of leaf shutter lenses decrease the price of the 645Z? How exactly would market specific conditions as PrioLite distribution network would make the 645Z so much cheaper?

As for tethering, I'm aware of 3 such methods: WiFi (FluCard), through ImageTransmitter 2 and through a Lightroom plug-in.

Sorry, but I can't take your post except as a "why the 645Z doesn't work for me" rant.

It was one answer that spawned a larger debate, and just part of a larger picture. Your getting features and specification confused here.

Wifi Flu-card does not tether, in fact it doesn't really do much reliably at all, the lightroom plugin is spotty when I used it, I honestly think Canon is the only one who has a good stable Lightroom setup. I haven't used image transmitter 2 though. A proper tethering solution should give you seamless two way communication between the computer and the camera. It should transfer files near instantly into your capture program and allow full camera control from the capture program in turn. The IQ250 does this, and in addition allows you to control your profoto lights right from the computer as well. Aside from physically moving the camera you could do everything right from the computer. The Lightroom plugin for the 645z when I used it did not allow reliable control of the camera, and images were not transferring consistently to lightroom. Thankfully it did save the ones that did not transfer to the SD card. The flu-card... yea not even worth using in a professional application.


I also didn't say the Priolite had anything to do with the pricing of the 645z, I mentioned it wasn't a good objection handler to the poor flash system. The Leaf shutters do however, as that is additional R&D that needs to be worked into the body to allow these leaf shutter lenses to work properly and allow the higher native flash sync speeds properly.

want me to add more features/spec?

modular viewfinder system
18 stop metering system
ability to customize the AF system that is expandable with new modules as they released, both firmware and hardware.
built in wifi
ability to change the GUI setup as required for the user within Capture One and save that to the camera (I didn't know that...but that's really cool)


granted to buy one you have to be registered as a photography business with a 100,000 USD business line of credit, and you need to take their insurance... even if you buy it cash and don't lease it.


What does the 645z give you as advantages over the IQ?

weather sealing
DSLR like design
video
3fps (vs 2fps... but if your using these cameras for that kinda thing your doing it wrong)
lighter


Different strokes for different folks. but theres a lot there, as a system, to justify the higher price point.

[richmondthefish]

Part of it is the shared guts between the two. But the new FF is supposed to have an all new AF matrix, flash system, and more.....so a lot of the subsidy is gone for this new tech.


But if we look at history, the K3 vs D7100 for example... at launch the specs were very similar, but the K3 was the more expensive (slightly) camera. So I wouldn't rule out the FF still being more expensive if they are punching in the D810/5Dmk3 class of cameras.

Looking in from the outside I just don't know either way because there are too many rumors and unknowns. Imagine for a second Pentax never had a digital medium format body and we had this poll trying to guess what the price of the 645Z was going to be. I guarantee lots of people would never believe it would be well under 10k at launch. Its possible that the FF being more expensive but it's also possible they taken this long trying to figure out how to manufacture a very competitive FF system while being very price competitive.

If you are correct and the K1 launches with a price of say $3,300 then they better have an ace up their sleeves. As Pioneer stated in the previous page they are entering into an extremely mature target market(FF DSLR). So Pentax is the new kid on the block entering the party extremely late and this party has been getting smaller with people jumping ship to mirrorless FF. Showing up in 2016 with a very pricey FF DSLR isn't easy imo. You're probably not going to get anyone from the Sony mirrorless crowd to jump ship. Getting someone to dump their Canon and Nikon system is going to be extremely tricky and many APS-C Pentax users probably don't want to drop a couple more thousand for FF at launch.

anyways differences from 645z vs Phase One IQ250.

Phase One:
Better dealer support
better after sales support
Capture One Pro included with constant updates
tethering
better manufacture support
16 bit vs 14 bit
flash sync speed upto 1/2000" (vs 1/80") with leaf shutter lenses
leaf shutter lenses
modular tech solution (backs/cameras etc.)
4 year base warranty
new and updated lenses
integrated triggering of Profoto lights

and thats just off the top of my head. Pentax has weather sealing and a more traditional DSLR setup.

No doubt but it's still a big feat for Pentax to have price the 645Z as low as it is based astronomical difference in price. My point is I wouldn't be shocked if they can figure out how to get the camera released under 3k. Maybe you're right and history follows like K3 vs D7100 and we are met with a camera more expensive than a D810. I'll be holding on to my K5 for a long time in that case.

[Wired]

Looking in from the outside I just don't know either way because there are too many rumors and unknowns. Imagine for a second Pentax never had a digital medium format body and we had this poll trying to guess what the price of the 645Z was going to be. I guarantee lots of people would never believe it would be well under 10k at launch. Its possible that the FF being more expensive but it's also possible they taken this long trying to figure out how to manufacture a very competitive FF system while being very price competitive.

If you are correct and the K1 launches with a price of say $3,300 then they better have an ace up their sleeves. As Pioneer stated in the previous page they are entering into an extremely mature target market(FF DSLR). So Pentax is the new kid on the block entering the party extremely late and this party has been getting smaller with people jumping ship to mirrorless FF. Showing up in 2016 with a very pricey FF DSLR isn't easy imo. You're probably not going to get anyone from the Sony mirrorless crowd to jump ship. Getting someone to dump their Canon and Nikon system is going to be extremely tricky and many APS-C Pentax users probably don't want to drop a couple more thousand for FF at launch.






No doubt but it's still a big feat for Pentax to have price the 645Z as low as it is based astronomical difference in price. My point is I wouldn't be shocked if they can figure out how to get the camera released under 3k. Maybe you're right and history follows like K3 vs D7100 and we are met with a camera more expensive than a D810. I'll be holding on to my K5 for a long time in that case.

I would love for it to be cheaper. But I don't see how it is possible. The sensor is all new (according to Kenspo), the AF system is all new (according to Ashaiman, and Kenspo as well I believe), there will be to released features that will blow our minds. And I think they would be the fool not to upgrade the flash system, even it was, at minimum, a boost in the sync speed to 1/250 it would help, but no, I think a new RF flash system will be what we see.

Trust me, I'd love nothing more for the K-1 to come out, be $2800 or so USD and beat the snot out of the D810 and 5DMK3 for spec for dollar. Looking at the price of the 70-200mm f2.8, and the rumored specs (which lets face it, are all just rumor with little to no actual fact right now), I'm not hopeful.

[richmondthefish]

I would love for it to be cheaper. But I don't see how it is possible. The sensor is all new (according to Kenspo), the AF system is all new (according to Ashaiman, and Kenspo as well I believe), there will be to released features that will blow our minds. And I think they would be the fool not to upgrade the flash system, even it was, at minimum, a boost in the sync speed to 1/250 it would help, but no, I think a new RF flash system will be what we see.

Trust me, I'd love nothing more for the K-1 to come out, be $2800 or so USD and beat the snot out of the D810 and 5DMK3 for spec for dollar. Looking at the price of the 70-200mm f2.8, and the rumored specs (which lets face it, are all just rumor with little to no actual fact right now), I'm not hopeful.

Realistically speaking who is the main audience buying this camera? Do you think it's going to get Pros and serious amateurs to drop their Canon and Nikon systems? I can understand how Sony was able to get people to do it but at the end of the day the K1 is still a DSLR. It might be a really good one but still a DSLR none the less. I know the current existing APS-C Pentax users are in scope for adopters but Im not sure how many that is with the price. Thats a lot of cash to move up from APS-C to full frame. Most who really needed full frame jumped ship to Nikon most likely a few years ago. I just don't see a big market for a expensive FF DSLR Pentax body. Except maybe Benjamin Kanarek will come back if the autofocus is fixed

[Wired]

Realistically speaking who is the main audience buying this camera? Do you think it's going to get Pros and serious amateurs to drop their Canon and Nikon systems? I can understand how Sony was able to get people to do it but at the end of the day the K1 is still a DSLR. It might be a really good one but still a DSLR none the less. I know the current existing APS-C Pentax users are in scope for adopters but Im not sure how many that is with the price. Thats a lot of cash to move up from APS-C to full frame. Most who really needed full frame jumped ship to Nikon most likely a few years ago. I just don't see a big market for a expensive FF DSLR Pentax body. Except maybe Benjamin Kanarek will come back if the autofocus is fixed

They said they are marketing and making this camera for pros. I don't think they are will move either to be honest... but there is a lot of discontent in both camps. No one is happy with their system it seems. Everyone can find fault in everything if they look hard enough lol.

[Kunzite]

It was one answer that spawned a larger debate, and just part of a larger picture. Your getting features and specification confused here.

On the contrary, it's you who is getting product features confused with system features. And you're trying to minimize 645Z's product features (no bashing intentions, it's just that you're talking a more subjective approach).
But it's pointless to further argue, so let's agree to disagree. The main point of this thread is K-1's price, anyway... and here it seems we're pretty much in agreement - as I would also like to see a D810-level camera, realizing that it would be a bit more expensive.

---------- Post added 18-01-16 at 09:00 PM ----------

I just don't see a big market for a expensive FF DSLR Pentax body.

It won't be that expensive.

[rawr]

I know the current existing APS-C Pentax users are in scope for adopters but Im not sure how many that is with the price. Thats a lot of cash to move up from APS-C to full frame. Most who really needed full frame jumped ship to Nikon most likely a few years ago. I just don't see a big market for a expensive FF DSLR Pentax body.

The population of camera users isn't static (for any brand). At any one point in time there is a flow of users arriving, users leaving, and a stock of established users.

Ricoh's basic task is to boost new users, and stop current users leaving. The upcoming FF fits right into this picture in a number of ways (depending on features and price, of course).

Thats a lot of cash to move up from APS-C to full frame. Not so much within an existing lens mount and camera eco-system. It can however get quite expensive moving to another lens mount (or running with several at once ).

[kooks]

I just don't see a big market for a expensive FF DSLR Pentax body.

I see a market for a good camera, capable to deliver great IQ + all the other extras that Pentax give us.. but as you said i dont see a market for a really expensive camera, at least at THIS time, basically as i said before, we dont have that many Pros that are willing to buy it, here are few pros shooting with APS-C, most of them are already doing it with FF, so Ricoh will need bo build stone by stone their pro users base.. when that is done.. they can eventually deivere a camera that is aim for that market. BUT.. thats just my opinion.. i could be wrong ofcourse.

[vcollerp]

Hi


According to our Pentax FB page R36000 the price include 14% vat. This was in October when the rand was R15 to the dollar. Just as a reference the D810 sells for R59999 around here.


So if I do the math it should be in the $2000 to $2200 range.

[richmondthefish]

Thats a lot of cash to move up from APS-C to full frame. Not so much within an existing lens mount and camera eco-system. It can however get quite expensive moving to another lens mount (or running with several at once ).

It appears expensive to me. If you are a Canon user you have an option of the 6D or D600 for Nikon users. These are sub $1500 FF cameras plus not to mention a used market full of FF models that can be had for under $1k.