The new FX must be below 2K, otherwise ...

Kunzite · 12-28-2015, 01:13 PM

Not sure what you're talking about... which large model, which lower model? Or... perhaps you're joking?

str8talk83 · 12-30-2015, 09:00 PM

I think that we will have to wait and see what the specs are. It also depends on the strategy that Pentax goes for.

Sony went for a budget strategy with the a7 series of bodies (starting out). Then they released lenses that were generally overpriced. I think their plan was to get people to get the cheap body and then spend money on their lenses. They do this with their SLT cameras as well. I love G lenses, but their "new" 70-200mm f/2.8 is $3k. Give me a break...

nomadkng · 12-31-2015, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Look at the cost of the lenses for this camera. This is a big boy camera, it would be wise to quit dreaming about little boy prices.

The market for this camera are the guys like the guy I met yesterday at BIrd Kingdom. He was shooting with an A7r, but, he looked at my Pentax and said " I shot Pentax up until 12 years ago, and I still have all my led Pentax gear. I'm just waiting for the FF to come out." A high percentage of adopters are going to be guys like him. Everyone for some reason wants to assume, Pentax is going to have to compete with everyone else. This camera is going to fulfill a need for existing users out there in th Pentax community, it would be nice if it competed with everyone else, but it certainly doesn't have to. This guy has a full pro kit just waiting for a body. For him it would be a steal at $3k.

This is where I'm sitting at as well. I almost switched to Nikon 3 years ago because I was fed up with poor AF from the K5 and I NEED FF. But the K3 came out and offered a small sliver of light. Combined with all I have invested in K-mount glass, I decided it could tide me over until the FF body came out. Now the K1 is almost here, but if it doesn't spec to a D810, it's probably time to go. I don't want an entry level FF, that almost seems like an oxymoron and it would be a downgrade in many ways from the K3. And that's all your going to get for these dreams of sub 1500 pricing.

I'm already nervous based on the "leaked" specs of ONLY 27 AF points, but we'll see. Maybe Pentax can do with 27 with Nikon can do with 51. It will be all about the predictive algorithms. I'm also sad the base iso is 100 and not 50 or even 64 like the D810. For landscape work, low native iso is great stuff.

But I guess we'll know in a couple months. I just can't see how in any universe trying to convert anyone with a bargain basement priced full frame is going to be a sound tactic. There's too many pro/semi-pro Pentaxians who have held out this long for a FF that would jump ship if their needs aren't met by this first release, and I think that number would be larger than any Canikon converts. And as Norm mentioned, many already have. You aren't going to get them BACK either with a 1500 FF. That's the best thing about Pentax, they have always seemed to try and take care of their own first. I'm hoping that philosophy is continued with the K1.

dylansalt · 12-31-2015, 10:23 AM

The problem with Pentax aps-c users lusting for FF they are going to be faced with a premium model being released - not some entry level model - and they are going to have to dig deep for that luxury as Pentax has left the whole FF thing far to late.

A Nikon aps-c user lusting for FF has a whole range of FF dslr to choose from D610 will be soon at bargain prices now that the D750 is around - they even have the D800 going at bargain prices now the D810 is the new kid on the block.

The same goes in the Sony mirrorless world and more or less in the Canon world - 1d mkiv can be had for next to nothing as so can the 5D MK11

Then there's the lens choices - Canon & Nikon have "budget" and pro lenses at same focal lengths - tons of choices

The K3ii is Pentax's flagship aps-c yet I have yet to see one in anyones hands and I have traveled extensively internationally

Even when I was in Canada - Canon was the dominant brand - so I really don't how Pentax survives or how they are going to suddenly impact the FF market place

Kunzite · 12-31-2015, 10:26 AM - **1 Like**

That might be a budget problem, but from another point of view it's not an issue at all: people thinking to upgrade from APS-C to FF will not see a cheap body, inferior in all but the sensor to let's say a K-3II, as an upgrade.
The K-1, indeed, is a camera for those wanting more.

Kunzite · 12-31-2015, 12:34 PM

By the way, I'm reading all those "the Pentax must be as cheap as the cheapest competition's cameras" as "I'm not going to buy it, no matter what"

kooks · 12-31-2015, 01:05 PM

I honestly dont think that the upcoming FF will be an entry level FF.. but i dont think that it will be a $3000+ camera either.. I do believe that at some point Pentax will have to introduce an entry level FF in order to "help" people jumping from the APS-C flagships to the FF system. Same as Nikon do with the D610 or Canon with the 6D.. in the future it will be a good idea to have this 2 bodies..

Kunzite · 12-31-2015, 04:53 PM

I must say, I'm not talking about a $3000+ camera; it doesn't take a very expensive DSLR to get that upgrade. On the contrary, the K-1 will be quite a value for money. Apparently

As for a cheaper version, it might make sense at some point, just like you say. But there are some conditions to make it work: having a large enough user base, reducing the R&D costs by reusing stuff from a previous model, having affordable lenses on the market and maybe even a second hand lens market...

kooks · 12-31-2015, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

As for a cheaper version, it might make sense at some point, just like you say. But there are some conditions to make it work: having a large enough user base, reducing the R&D costs by reusing stuff from a previous model, having affordable lenses on the market and maybe even a second hand lens market...

I imagine this as a K3 but with a FF sensor.. thats all.. 24MP FF.. Lenses as you said are very important.. but actually I dont see the new lenses THAT expensive for what they are at the prices that are today.. if we add the 3rd party lenses to the "low budget FF" equation it doesnt sound that bad.. I think that Sony play for this when they released the A7.. "cheap" FF that can use lots of lenses from other brands so within a few time their user base grew quite good for them, and then they released their premium FF. I dont think that Ricoh will play that game too, but Kenspo once told me that a Sony top executives went to work for Ricoh a while ago so.. at this time all the possibilities are available cuz we dont know that much.

M.B.Yates · 12-31-2015, 07:04 PM

It would be great if Richo/Pentax did a upgrade your old body to the new FF promo at launch...eg: Trade up your K20D K7 or K5 and get a special introductory price of $$$$ (big discount)...would reward loyal Pentaxians for staying with the brand...I would def be in.

VoiceOfReason · 12-31-2015, 07:18 PM

It will not be a 24 mp ff.

Kunzite · 12-31-2015, 07:42 PM

I think kooks is talking about a hypothetical "cheaper" model.

@kooks:
Well, the 70-200, I mean the only 70-200 we know about is/will be ~2000 euro; it's not a product for the price sensitive people. You can't gain them with a somewhat cheaper camera, and expensive f/2.8 zooms. So, in addition to the kit zoom, there must be other, more affordable lenses (f/4 zooms, primes etc). Only after that we could talk about a successful cheaper model, IMO. Only then Pentax could build an affordable kit.
There's another issue: the K-1's price. If it's the one leaked some months ago, it doesn't leave much room for a K-3-based 24MP model. The hypothetical cheaper model will have to include more cost savings; otherwise the K-1 (by a hypothetical "then" discounted a bit) will be the better proposition.

However, you said "in the future" and "at some point"; by that you are giving them time to solve those issues (introduce more lenses, perhaps replace the K-1 with a 2-tier cameras). I'm not contradicting you, just saying that it might take some time.

Jim Malcolm worked for Sony (Director, Corporate Marketing between 2004 and 2009).

kooks · 12-31-2015, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I think kooks is talking about a hypothetical "cheaper" model.

yes.. im talking about a future model.. not this one.. Something that in the future can be at a level of Entry Level FFs .. like D610's, A7's or 6D's .. .. a FF model that can work as a "bridge" from advance APS-C's and the top level FFs. We'll see how the market goes within the next months/years and how Ricoh handle all this..

Future looks interesting.

VoiceOfReason · 12-31-2015, 09:20 PM

I probably wouldn't buy a 24mp FF, mainly because i already have a good 24mp camera. If I buy FF I will go 36 or 42 mp.

tabl10s · 12-31-2015, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by nomadkng

This is where I'm sitting at as well. I almost switched to Nikon 3 years ago because I was fed up with poor AF from the K5 and I NEED FF. But the K3 came out and offered a small sliver of light. Combined with all I have invested in K-mount glass, I decided it could tide me over until the FF body came out. Now the K1 is almost here, but if it doesn't spec to a D810, it's probably time to go. I don't want an entry level FF, that almost seems like an oxymoron and it would be a downgrade in many ways from the K3. And that's all your going to get for these dreams of sub 1500 pricing.

I'm already nervous based on the "leaked" specs of ONLY 27 AF points, but we'll see. Maybe Pentax can do with 27 with Nikon can do with 51. It will be all about the predictive algorithms. I'm also sad the base iso is 100 and not 50 or even 64 like the D810. For landscape work, low native iso is great stuff.

But I guess we'll know in a couple months. I just can't see how in any universe trying to convert anyone with a bargain basement priced full frame is going to be a sound tactic. There's too many pro/semi-pro Pentaxians who have held out this long for a FF that would jump ship if their needs aren't met by this first release, and I think that number would be larger than any Canikon converts. And as Norm mentioned, many already have. You aren't going to get them BACK either with a 1500 FF. That's the best thing about Pentax, they have always seemed to try and take care of their own first. I'm hoping that philosophy is continued with the K1.

I agree.

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12-28-2015, 01:13 PM	#61
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Not sure what you're talking about... which large model, which lower model? Or... perhaps you're joking?

12-30-2015, 09:00 PM	#62
str8talk83 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Bluffton, SC Photos: Albums Posts: 674	I think that we will have to wait and see what the specs are. It also depends on the strategy that Pentax goes for. Sony went for a budget strategy with the a7 series of bodies (starting out). Then they released lenses that were generally overpriced. I think their plan was to get people to get the cheap body and then spend money on their lenses. They do this with their SLT cameras as well. I love G lenses, but their "new" 70-200mm f/2.8 is $3k. Give me a break...

12-31-2015, 08:06 AM	#63
nomadkng Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,448	Originally posted by normhead Look at the cost of the lenses for this camera. This is a big boy camera, it would be wise to quit dreaming about little boy prices. The market for this camera are the guys like the guy I met yesterday at BIrd Kingdom. He was shooting with an A7r, but, he looked at my Pentax and said " I shot Pentax up until 12 years ago, and I still have all my led Pentax gear. I'm just waiting for the FF to come out." A high percentage of adopters are going to be guys like him. Everyone for some reason wants to assume, Pentax is going to have to compete with everyone else. This camera is going to fulfill a need for existing users out there in th Pentax community, it would be nice if it competed with everyone else, but it certainly doesn't have to. This guy has a full pro kit just waiting for a body. For him it would be a steal at $3k. This is where I'm sitting at as well. I almost switched to Nikon 3 years ago because I was fed up with poor AF from the K5 and I NEED FF. But the K3 came out and offered a small sliver of light. Combined with all I have invested in K-mount glass, I decided it could tide me over until the FF body came out. Now the K1 is almost here, but if it doesn't spec to a D810, it's probably time to go. I don't want an entry level FF, that almost seems like an oxymoron and it would be a downgrade in many ways from the K3. And that's all your going to get for these dreams of sub 1500 pricing. I'm already nervous based on the "leaked" specs of ONLY 27 AF points, but we'll see. Maybe Pentax can do with 27 with Nikon can do with 51. It will be all about the predictive algorithms. I'm also sad the base iso is 100 and not 50 or even 64 like the D810. For landscape work, low native iso is great stuff. But I guess we'll know in a couple months. I just can't see how in any universe trying to convert anyone with a bargain basement priced full frame is going to be a sound tactic. There's too many pro/semi-pro Pentaxians who have held out this long for a FF that would jump ship if their needs aren't met by this first release, and I think that number would be larger than any Canikon converts. And as Norm mentioned, many already have. You aren't going to get them BACK either with a 1500 FF. That's the best thing about Pentax, they have always seemed to try and take care of their own first. I'm hoping that philosophy is continued with the K1.

12-31-2015, 10:23 AM	#64
dylansalt Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Durban, South Africa Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,052	The problem with Pentax aps-c users lusting for FF they are going to be faced with a premium model being released - not some entry level model - and they are going to have to dig deep for that luxury as Pentax has left the whole FF thing far to late. A Nikon aps-c user lusting for FF has a whole range of FF dslr to choose from D610 will be soon at bargain prices now that the D750 is around - they even have the D800 going at bargain prices now the D810 is the new kid on the block. The same goes in the Sony mirrorless world and more or less in the Canon world - 1d mkiv can be had for next to nothing as so can the 5D MK11 Then there's the lens choices - Canon & Nikon have "budget" and pro lenses at same focal lengths - tons of choices The K3ii is Pentax's flagship aps-c yet I have yet to see one in anyones hands and I have traveled extensively internationally Even when I was in Canada - Canon was the dominant brand - so I really don't how Pentax survives or how they are going to suddenly impact the FF market place

12-31-2015, 10:26 AM - 1 Like	#65
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	That might be a budget problem, but from another point of view it's not an issue at all: people thinking to upgrade from APS-C to FF will not see a cheap body, inferior in all but the sensor to let's say a K-3II, as an upgrade. The K-1, indeed, is a camera for those wanting more.

12-31-2015, 12:34 PM	#66
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	By the way, I'm reading all those "the Pentax must be as cheap as the cheapest competition's cameras" as "I'm not going to buy it, no matter what"

12-31-2015, 01:05 PM	#67
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	I honestly dont think that the upcoming FF will be an entry level FF.. but i dont think that it will be a $3000+ camera either.. I do believe that at some point Pentax will have to introduce an entry level FF in order to "help" people jumping from the APS-C flagships to the FF system. Same as Nikon do with the D610 or Canon with the 6D.. in the future it will be a good idea to have this 2 bodies..

12-31-2015, 04:53 PM	#68
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I must say, I'm not talking about a $3000+ camera; it doesn't take a very expensive DSLR to get that upgrade. On the contrary, the K-1 will be quite a value for money. Apparently As for a cheaper version, it might make sense at some point, just like you say. But there are some conditions to make it work: having a large enough user base, reducing the R&D costs by reusing stuff from a previous model, having affordable lenses on the market and maybe even a second hand lens market...

12-31-2015, 06:19 PM	#69
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	Originally posted by Kunzite As for a cheaper version, it might make sense at some point, just like you say. But there are some conditions to make it work: having a large enough user base, reducing the R&D costs by reusing stuff from a previous model, having affordable lenses on the market and maybe even a second hand lens market... I imagine this as a K3 but with a FF sensor.. thats all.. 24MP FF.. Lenses as you said are very important.. but actually I dont see the new lenses THAT expensive for what they are at the prices that are today.. if we add the 3rd party lenses to the "low budget FF" equation it doesnt sound that bad.. I think that Sony play for this when they released the A7.. "cheap" FF that can use lots of lenses from other brands so within a few time their user base grew quite good for them, and then they released their premium FF. I dont think that Ricoh will play that game too, but Kenspo once told me that a Sony top executives went to work for Ricoh a while ago so.. at this time all the possibilities are available cuz we dont know that much.

12-31-2015, 07:04 PM	#70
M.B.Yates Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Photos: Gallery Posts: 52	It would be great if Richo/Pentax did a upgrade your old body to the new FF promo at launch...eg: Trade up your K20D K7 or K5 and get a special introductory price of $$$$ (big discount)...would reward loyal Pentaxians for staying with the brand...I would def be in.

12-31-2015, 07:18 PM	#71
VoiceOfReason Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,124	It will not be a 24 mp ff.

12-31-2015, 07:42 PM	#72
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I think kooks is talking about a hypothetical "cheaper" model. @kooks: Well, the 70-200, I mean the only 70-200 we know about is/will be ~2000 euro; it's not a product for the price sensitive people. You can't gain them with a somewhat cheaper camera, and expensive f/2.8 zooms. So, in addition to the kit zoom, there must be other, more affordable lenses (f/4 zooms, primes etc). Only after that we could talk about a successful cheaper model, IMO. Only then Pentax could build an affordable kit. There's another issue: the K-1's price. If it's the one leaked some months ago, it doesn't leave much room for a K-3-based 24MP model. The hypothetical cheaper model will have to include more cost savings; otherwise the K-1 (by a hypothetical "then" discounted a bit) will be the better proposition. However, you said "in the future" and "at some point"; by that you are giving them time to solve those issues (introduce more lenses, perhaps replace the K-1 with a 2-tier cameras). I'm not contradicting you, just saying that it might take some time. Jim Malcolm worked for Sony (Director, Corporate Marketing between 2004 and 2009).

12-31-2015, 07:58 PM	#73
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	Originally posted by Kunzite I think kooks is talking about a hypothetical "cheaper" model. yes.. im talking about a future model.. not this one.. Something that in the future can be at a level of Entry Level FFs .. like D610's, A7's or 6D's .. .. a FF model that can work as a "bridge" from advance APS-C's and the top level FFs. We'll see how the market goes within the next months/years and how Ricoh handle all this.. Future looks interesting.

12-31-2015, 09:20 PM	#74
VoiceOfReason Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,124	I probably wouldn't buy a 24mp FF, mainly because i already have a good 24mp camera. If I buy FF I will go 36 or 42 mp.

12-31-2015, 09:56 PM	#75
tabl10s Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Sacramento(formerly from B'Ham, England). Posts: 1,424	Originally posted by nomadkng This is where I'm sitting at as well. I almost switched to Nikon 3 years ago because I was fed up with poor AF from the K5 and I NEED FF. But the K3 came out and offered a small sliver of light. Combined with all I have invested in K-mount glass, I decided it could tide me over until the FF body came out. Now the K1 is almost here, but if it doesn't spec to a D810, it's probably time to go. I don't want an entry level FF, that almost seems like an oxymoron and it would be a downgrade in many ways from the K3. And that's all your going to get for these dreams of sub 1500 pricing. I'm already nervous based on the "leaked" specs of ONLY 27 AF points, but we'll see. Maybe Pentax can do with 27 with Nikon can do with 51. It will be all about the predictive algorithms. I'm also sad the base iso is 100 and not 50 or even 64 like the D810. For landscape work, low native iso is great stuff. But I guess we'll know in a couple months. I just can't see how in any universe trying to convert anyone with a bargain basement priced full frame is going to be a sound tactic. There's too many pro/semi-pro Pentaxians who have held out this long for a FF that would jump ship if their needs aren't met by this first release, and I think that number would be larger than any Canikon converts. And as Norm mentioned, many already have. You aren't going to get them BACK either with a 1500 FF. That's the best thing about Pentax, they have always seemed to try and take care of their own first. I'm hoping that philosophy is continued with the K1. I agree.