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01-05-2016, 08:16 PM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Who is doing all this coveting?
all the people who have lost their nuts.

01-06-2016, 12:04 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by digitalis Quote
all the people who have lost their nuts.
roflol.
01-06-2016, 01:56 AM   #63
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Waiting is not really an issue, if the gear was working and reliable. Look at that: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/311174-da-3...s-problem.html
You spend thousands of dollars and then it has a poor track record of reliability. How do you defend the Pentax brand in that case? How is it possible that Ricoh executives stay completely silent about that and continue to sell this kind on products ? Waiting is not a good reason to switch, there's always new products being released and there's always something that a brand has that other brands don't have.
But IMO, poor reliability and long term lack of some types of lenses / third party lenses , are good reasons to drop Pentax.
01-06-2016, 05:00 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Waiting is not really an issue, if the gear was working and reliable. Look at that: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/311174-da-3...s-problem.html
You spend thousands of dollars and then it has a poor track record of reliability. How do you defend the Pentax brand in that case? How is it possible that Ricoh executives stay completely silent about that and continue to sell this kind on products ? Waiting is not a good reason to switch, there's always new products being released and there's always something that a brand has that other brands don't have.
But IMO, poor reliability and long term lack of some types of lenses / third party lenses , are good reasons to drop Pentax.

Hmmmm, (sarcasm to follow)


So I guess Pentax is the brand with all the problems, I'll bet Ricoh hires all the dud engineers from the other manufacturers. That's why Pentax is so crappy and everyone else produces pristine cameras. If Pentax is so bad why don't you just drop them and move on to one of the faultless brands?

01-06-2016, 05:13 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
So I guess Pentax is the brand with all the problems, I'll bet Ricoh hires all the dud engineers from the other manufacturers. That's why Pentax is so crappy and everyone else produces pristine cameras. If Pentax is so bad why don't you just drop them and move on to one of the faultless brands?
You are likely close to reality, if you'd be an engineer at Canon or Nikon, why would you consider resigning from your job and getting hired by Pentax for a lower salary? Bare in mind what Pentax is a small company with less than 1000 employees, with budgets a lot smaller than what Nikon and Canon have. I like Pentax because I started many years ago with Pentax, and this has nothing to do with comparative perf. and product reliability. One year ago, I stopped buying any K mount product, and I'm currently saving money to invest in another system. The fact of being invested into a type of mount (brand) has nothing to do with product performance. So, basically, what people invested in Pentax are saying is to defend their brand, not because it is what they claim, but because they claim arguments to protect their investments. And of course, I understand this, I am in the same situation, it's hard to take the turn. The way I decided to do it is to continue to use my existing Pentax APSC gear until it breaks or obsolete, and take the opportunity of a FF upgrade to turn to another brand (I don't have much FF glass, so, for me, it cost about the same regardless of the brand, however, there are a lot more lens options with other brands).
01-06-2016, 06:43 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I like Pentax because I started many years ago with Pentax, and this has nothing to do with comparative perf. and product reliability.
I am in the same boat. I eventually came back to Pentax partially because of nostalgia and partly because of a good deal. My very first camera was the MX back in the film days. It was stolen and on the urging of a "Pro" friend, I switched to a "real" camera which was the Nikon system. I stayed with Nikon until switch to my first digital DSLR, the Fuji S1, which was a rebadged Nikon body. Shortly after I switched again to the Canon digital which I stayed with for the next 12 years. I came back to a super deal offered by Pentax which included the K5IIs and the Three Amigos. I let go of a Canon 6D and a few L lenses. Canon focus was erratic and the flash was nothing to write home about. That is why the Pentax switch seemed like a good move. I eventually found out that grass was not that green on the Pentax side either. Pentax has its own shortcomings and list is as long as Canon's if not longer.

Now that I have added K3s to the mix and a few more lenses, I am well invested in the Pentax DSLR system. I am waiting for the FF to come out but I am not sure if I want to invest in it. Given that I shoot for large prints these days (nature, still life and products), I am wondering if the real upgrade should be the 645Z.
01-06-2016, 07:05 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Rupert?
Who is doing all this coveting?
People that post naked girls and old guys like you that need special attention from a damn squirrel....I guess?

.......and the lucky person that will cash in the most awards sometime in 2016 for a valued prize.......you do know Otis is loaded with cash...right? He has made a fortune on e-BAY selling those "truckloads" of roasted peanuts, not to mention his cut of all those donations for the little blind starving orphan squirrels.

You're not angry because you bought a "truckload" from Otis....are you? You should have known better!



Regards!
01-06-2016, 07:28 AM - 2 Likes   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Waiting is not really an issue, if the gear was working and reliable. Look at that: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/311174-da-3...s-problem.html
You spend thousands of dollars and then it has a poor track record of reliability. How do you defend the Pentax brand in that case? How is it possible that Ricoh executives stay completely silent about that and continue to sell this kind on products ? Waiting is not a good reason to switch, there's always new products being released and there's always something that a brand has that other brands don't have.
But IMO, poor reliability and long term lack of some types of lenses / third party lenses , are good reasons to drop Pentax.
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You are likely close to reality, if you'd be an engineer at Canon or Nikon, why would you consider resigning from your job and getting hired by Pentax for a lower salary? Bare in mind what Pentax is a small company with less than 1000 employees, with budgets a lot smaller than what Nikon and Canon have. I like Pentax because I started many years ago with Pentax, and this has nothing to do with comparative perf. and product reliability. One year ago, I stopped buying any K mount product, and I'm currently saving money to invest in another system. The fact of being invested into a type of mount (brand) has nothing to do with product performance. So, basically, what people invested in Pentax are saying is to defend their brand, not because it is what they claim, but because they claim arguments to protect their investments. And of course, I understand this, I am in the same situation, it's hard to take the turn. The way I decided to do it is to continue to use my existing Pentax APSC gear until it breaks or obsolete, and take the opportunity of a FF upgrade to turn to another brand (I don't have much FF glass, so, for me, it cost about the same regardless of the brand, however, there are a lot more lens options with other brands).
biz-engineer, you're in danger of getting laughed out of dodge here.

According to lens rentals, Pentax has the highest reliability in the industry.
Nikon got caught instructing customer reps in China to tell their service reps to blame customers for the known sensor oil issue to avoid having to honour their warranties, and got banned from Russia and China.

Lens rentals has found $15,000 Canon lenses that were shipped direct to them from the factory, to be defective and in need of adjustment or repair, on arrival, straight out of the box.

SO good luck to you dude, keep drinking the cool aid.

No one cares if you stay with Pentax or not.... but do some research before you go off on them. You look like a fool. All the little stories about Nikon hiring Pentax engineers etc. are just that, the fabrications of an unsettled mind.

But I have to say, you'd fit right in with the corporate Nikon and Canon trolls who post on the forum from time to time, did they offer you a job? Or are you spreading this nonsense as an amateur?

The simple fact is all camera companies depend on large sales and as efficient as possible mass production to be able to make money. No one sits down and spends time with their lenses to make sure everything is perfect.

What's the difference between ltd. lenses and others? The Limiteds are still hand assembled. DO Nikon and Canon still hand assemble any of their lenses? Pentax is fighting a rear guard action to maintain higher than industry standard gear at affordable prices, without producing the "fall apart at the first excuse" cheap gear Nikon and Canon produce. SO, haul your ass over there, you'll find out real quick who has even the remotest semblance of quality left in their consumer gear.

If you go back to my FA 35-80 you can see Pentax tried to keep up in the "cheap" department at some point. I think they saw the error of their ways, and just thought, "we're going back to producing quality stuff at reasonable prices". I've seen nothing in the rest of the camera industry that shows any commitment to ruggedness, or initial quality or anything but the desire to produce what used to be good lenses at the lowest possible price, and that means the cheapest possible construction. Under-engineered to the point where it is starting to cost more to honour the warranties than it would to produce a quality product in the first place.

SO that's what I see. You see a migration of all the good engineers to Nikon and Canon. Put your money where you mouth is dude. I'm happy where I am, you're not. Quit whining and man up.

If I thought what you do about Pentax, I'd be ashamed to carry their gear around. Try and have some integrity.


Last edited by normhead; 01-06-2016 at 07:52 AM.
01-06-2016, 08:27 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
No one cares if you stay with Pentax or not....
I fully agree with that. It's the same for you. If you spent thousand hours on PF to mask-out the failures in an attempt to clean-up the brand name, it's your time. I hope Pentax can to you to offer you a medal or some free lenses and cameras, if not, you spent a lot of time an emotional energy for what?

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Quit whining and man up
The difference between you and me is that I'm free, while you are swamped with Pentax gear (so much cost it would take to get elsewhere), so, in order to suffer less, you have no choice but to convince yourself that you've made the right choice.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If I thought what you do about Pentax, I'd be ashamed to carry their gear around. Try and have some integrity.
I'm being rational. I know what works well with Pentax , and I know what the issues are, I'm not religiously attached to Pentax so that I'm able to stand back and have an honest view of the big picture of what Pentax is about. On the other hand, you do react as offended and you deny the obvious. Regarding the very high SDM failure rate, it is well known, publicly known and still, those lenses are still for sales on the shelves more than 4 years after Pentax being aware of the problem. The SDM problem is such that if you take 5 Pentax users, you are almost sure that one of them had at least one of his SDM failing. We are not talking about 1%, we are talking about 10%, 20%, 30% occurrence, as per Japanese quality standard, it must be one of the lowest quality level of all industry in Japan. If you are happy with that... I'm not.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Quit whining and man up
Yes , that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm not whining, as an experienced Pentaxian, I'm rather trying to share my experience with others in order to save them from making the wrong purchase decisions.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
biz-engineer, you're in danger of getting laughed out of dodge here.
Yes, you can laugth, I don't mind since I'm not having any ego involved in the evaluation of Pentax products.
01-06-2016, 08:30 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
biz-engineer, you're in danger of getting laughed out of dodge here.

According to lens rentals, Pentax has the highest reliability in the industry.
Nikon got caught instructing customer reps in China to tell their service reps to blame customers for the known sensor oil issue to avoid having to honour their warranties, and got banned from Russia and China.

Lens rentals has found $15,000 Canon lenses that were shipped direct to them from the factory, to be defective and in need of adjustment or repair, on arrival, straight out of the box.

SO good luck to you dude, keep drinking the cool aid.

No one cares if you stay with Pentax or not.... but do some research before you go off on them. You look like a fool. All the little stories about Nikon hiring Pentax engineers etc. are just that, the fabrications of an unsettled mind.

But I have to say, you'd fit right in with the corporate Nikon and Canon trolls who post on the forum from time to time, did they offer you a job? Or are you spreading this nonsense as an amateur?

The simple fact is all camera companies depend on large sales and as efficient as possible mass production to be able to make money. No one sits down and spends time with their lenses to make sure everything is perfect.

What's the difference between ltd. lenses and others? The Limiteds are still hand assembled. DO Nikon and Canon still hand assemble any of their lenses? Pentax is fighting a rear guard action to maintain higher than industry standard gear at affordable prices, without producing the "fall apart at the first excuse" cheap gear Nikon and Canon produce. SO, haul your ass over there, you'll find out real quick who has even the remotest semblance of quality left in their consumer gear.

If you go back to my FA 35-80 you can see Pentax tried to keep up in the "cheap" department at some point. I think they saw the error of their ways, and just thought, "we're going back to producing quality stuff at reasonable prices". I've seen nothing in the rest of the camera industry that shows any commitment to ruggedness, or initial quality or anything but the desire to produce what used to be good lenses at the lowest possible price, and that means the cheapest possible construction. Under-engineered to the point where it is starting to cost more to honour the warranties than it would to produce a quality product in the first place.

SO that's what I see. You see a migration of all the good engineers to Nikon and Canon. Put your money where you mouth is dude. I'm happy where I am, you're not. Quit whining and man up.

If I thought what you do about Pentax, I'd be ashamed to carry their gear around. Try and have some integrity.
Not so fast Norm,

biz-engineer has a valid point. SDM issue is not a fantasy. It is real. Having owned Nikon (Film), Canon (Digital) and now Pentax, I can tell you that I never had any body or lens failure with any of the systems I have owned over a 30 year period. The qualifier should be that I have not owned any Pentax lenses with SDM. Equipment failure is a fact of life. That is why pros carry multiple bodies or even lenses. The only failure I had was with two Canon flashes. BTW, my second shooter (a Nikon guy) saved the day for me.

I gave up wedding photography in 2007. If I had to shoot weddings again today, I will switch from Pentax. The lag in the K3 flash is annoying to a point of being useless for fast action wedding environment. And the SDM issue is a wild card no pro can afford. Since I do not do any weddings or similar work, I am perfectly happy with my K3, my Three Amigos and all the other lenses (no SDM).

The only system that I have seen and experienced that is truly fit for fast action (weddings and such) environment is the Nikon. Their focusing system is the best by a wide margin and their flash is the best of the bunch. This is from personal experience with all three (Canon, Nikon and Pentax) systems.

Do not get me wrong, I LOVE my Pentax K3s and all my Pentax lenses. But for an aging eye, other features such as an EVF and Focus Peaking are real life savers. That is why Sony is taking market share from the other guys. Frankly, I think Canon and Nikon are in more trouble than Pentax because the 900lbs. gorilla (Sony) is aiming for them. Pentax with its very small user base is just a footnote and does not even register on the Sony radar screen.

What keeps Pentax in the news is not its DSLR but the 645Z system which is the bargain of the century given its price and capability.
01-06-2016, 08:39 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
What keeps Pentax in the news is not its DSLR but the 645Z system which is the bargain of the century given its price and capability.
Yes, the 645z is clearly and competitively well positioned, I also think Pentax has there with the 645z a very compelling offer.
01-06-2016, 08:49 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I fully agree with that. It's the same for you. If you spent thousand hours on PF to mask-out the failures in an attempt to clean-up the brand name, it's your time. I hope Pentax can to you to offer you a medal or some free lenses and cameras, if not, you spent a lot of time an emotional energy for what?


The difference between you and me is that I'm free, while you are swamped with Pentax gear (so much cost it would take to get elsewhere), so, in order to suffer less, you have no choice but to convince yourself that you've made the right choice.


I'm being rational. I know what works well with Pentax , and I know what the issues are, I'm not religiously attached to Pentax so that I'm able to stand back and have an honest view of the big picture of what Pentax is about. On the other hand, you do react as offended and you deny the obvious. Regarding the very high SDM failure rate, it is well known, publicly known and still, those lenses are still for sales on the shelves more than 4 years after Pentax being aware of the problem. The SDM problem is such that if you take 5 Pentax users, you are almost sure that one of them had at least one of his SDM failing. We are not talking about 1%, we are talking about 10%, 20%, 30% occurrence, as per Japanese quality standard, it must be one of the lowest quality level of all industry in Japan. If you are happy with that... I'm not.


Yes , that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm not whining, as an experienced Pentaxian, I'm rather trying to share my experience with others in order to save them from making the wrong purchase decisions.


Yes, you can laugth, I don't mind since I'm not having any ego involved in the evaluation of Pentax products.
You have not one verifiable fact, comparing Pentax gear to other gear. You're just making this stuff up. You don't know the difference between anecdotal evidence, and fact. You make your argument by ascribing to yourself "rationality" a quality you claim without any justification, that you have and I don't. You are just making up stats. Well my friend, rationality is not decided by whether or not people agree with you.

As I said, according to people other than myself who keep track of such things, lensrentals.com, Pentax have the highest reliability in the industry, even including SDM lenses.I guess lensrentals.com is "irrational" too. I suppose they can't actually keep track of how many len failures they have or the names of the companies that make the lenses they rent. Your wild guesses at how many SDM failure there have been are to be believed, but their actual numbers are to be ignored.

Do you even understand the difference between anecdotal and statistical evidence?

No my friend the difference between me and you is when I see anecdotal evidence, like you're talking about, I look for actual numbers to back it up. That's what every scientist does. Take the anecdotal, find out what's true. But you know nothing from anecdotal evidence accept that one company has had some failures. That tells you nothing about the other companies that you assume are better, about that company's performance against industry standards or anything else. It just tells you that company, like every other company, has had some problems. And in the SDM case, it was fixed years ago.

IN any case, SDM is five year old technology. All the new lenses from the 18-135 on are coming with the Pentax version of ring motors.

Last edited by normhead; 01-06-2016 at 08:55 AM.
01-06-2016, 08:58 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You are likely close to reality, if you'd be an engineer at Canon or Nikon, why would you consider resigning from your job and getting hired by Pentax for a lower salary?
What makes you say that "Pentax" employees are paid less than Canon or Nikon ones?
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Bare in mind what Pentax is a small company with less than 1000 employees
There's no Pentax company anymore. Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, when founded (in 2011), had 1900 employees - and I doubt they fired half of their staff.
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
One year ago, I stopped buying any K mount product, and I'm currently saving money to invest in another system. The fact of being invested into a type of mount (brand) has nothing to do with product performance. So, basically, what people invested in Pentax are saying is to defend their brand, not because it is what they claim, but because they claim arguments to protect their investments.
Then, people who decided to jump ship are saying what they are saying to defend their decision.

---------- Post added 06-01-16 at 05:59 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
IN any case, SDM is five year old technology. All the new lenses from the 18-135 on are coming with the Pentax version of ring motors.
I don't think DC is of ring type.
01-06-2016, 09:04 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You are likely close to reality, if you'd be an engineer at Canon or Nikon, why would you consider resigning from your job and getting hired by Pentax for a lower salary? Bare in mind what Pentax is a small company with less than 1000 employees, with budgets a lot smaller than what Nikon and Canon have. I like Pentax because I started many years ago with Pentax, and this has nothing to do with comparative perf. and product reliability. One year ago, I stopped buying any K mount product, and I'm currently saving money to invest in another system. The fact of being invested into a type of mount (brand) has nothing to do with product performance. So, basically, what people invested in Pentax are saying is to defend their brand, not because it is what they claim, but because they claim arguments to protect their investments. And of course, I understand this, I am in the same situation, it's hard to take the turn. The way I decided to do it is to continue to use my existing Pentax APSC gear until it breaks or obsolete, and take the opportunity of a FF upgrade to turn to another brand (I don't have much FF glass, so, for me, it cost about the same regardless of the brand, however, there are a lot more lens options with other brands).
Where is this coming from? When Ricoh took over Pentax from Hoya it was a company with 1500 employees. Those where added to Ricoh's own small camera business.
01-06-2016, 09:22 AM - 1 Like   #75
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biz-engineer - boriscletoed™ - long overdue IMHO

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Last edited by Not a Number; 01-06-2016 at 09:38 AM.
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