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01-26-2016, 03:58 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
I still can't see why Pentax users are obsessed with Pentax FF

In many other threads, users of the K3 (the professionals) have stressed that the K3 can easily give the same IQ as a FF aka Nikon/Canon FF

So surely Pentax users can't really be wanting a Pentax FF only to be able to use their old legacy glass?

What other benefits would the Pentax FF actually offer ?
Few points:
* claiming that we are obsessed is dismissive and (for most of us, at least) incorrect
* talking about "Pentax users" in the 3rd person... should I assume you're not one of us?
* the K-3 can give very similar results as some full frame cameras, in certain conditions. It cannot surpass all full frame cameras, in all conditions.
* Ricoh Imaging launching a full frame K-mount product line is very important, not only to buyers but to APS-C users, too:
- it proves they're serious about Pentax/K-mount
- it provides an "upgrade path" for people who want something "more" than what is offered by APS-C, effectively keeping the best spenders instead of making them jump ship
- it provides Ricoh Imaging with a higher margin product line; because of which all sorts of good things will happen (including better R&D capacity, the ability to tackle more ambitious projects etc.)
And so on. In the end, all Pentaxians should be happy - by various degrees.

01-26-2016, 04:40 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Few points:
* claiming that we are obsessed is dismissive and (for most of us, at least) incorrect
* talking about "Pentax users" in the 3rd person... should I assume you're not one of us?
* the K-3 can give very similar results as some full frame cameras, in certain conditions. It cannot surpass all full frame cameras, in all conditions.
* Ricoh Imaging launching a full frame K-mount product line is very important, not only to buyers but to APS-C users, too:
- it proves they're serious about Pentax/K-mount
- it provides an "upgrade path" for people who want something "more" than what is offered by APS-C, effectively keeping the best spenders instead of making them jump ship
- it provides Ricoh Imaging with a higher margin product line; because of which all sorts of good things will happen (including better R&D capacity, the ability to tackle more ambitious projects etc.)
And so on. In the end, all Pentaxians should be happy - by various degrees.
Dylan has been shooting with Nikon for many years. I think his last Pentax camera was the K10. When he upgraded from his D7000 to a D750, he posted his experiences in a thread awhile back. Suffice to say that he likes the 750 better.

Obviously there are plenty of reasons for Ricoh to go ahead with the full frame camera -- the biggest one being that it is basically done. Even if it isn't a huge seller, I have no doubt that they can make money on it over the next several years.

I think many people mistake the "APS-C is good enough," comments in various threads as being indicative of a feeling that full frame is unnecessary. The reality is that if a hobby/snap shot photographer approaches me and asks my advice for what camera to move to from, say, a point and shoot or bridge camera, I will recommend an APS-C SLR. Cost-wise they are really cheap at this point and they give really good image quality. Starting with full frame, unless you have a lot of money to spend, is probably overkill for most people.

I think some people think that a larger sensor will fix the flaws in their shooting. If you have trouble with composition or other aspects of photography, it would be a mistake to think that moving from crop sensors to full frame sensors will fix those things. You'll likely have the same images, but with a little more detail.

For a lot of people that will be enough and they will never buy any more lenses or be interested in a larger sensored camera. For a certain number of people, they will be bitten by the bug and will have to get more and more lenses and will look to move up. Those are the folks that full frame is going to target.
01-26-2016, 05:08 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Obviously there are plenty of reasons for Ricoh to go ahead with the full frame camera -- the biggest one being that it is basically done.
I should think the best reason of all to do it would be for the effect it has on the OP and all his fellow doomsayers.

When I eventually get this camera, it will be because (a) I have shot my K-5 into the ground and it is dying, or (b) it offers something SO MUCH BETTER when it comes to my professional work that I cannot deny the advantages. And I don't just mean sensor size. I keep telling my wife "I don't need this now and I almost certainly won't be getting it now" (and she says "Get it if you want it," the lovely woman), but things which would make me get it sooner rather than later include restoration of the aperture coupling and TTL, really low base ISO, and at least another stop of SR. User btnapa has hinted at "pixel shift and then some", which makes me wonder if they've actually gone so far as to give us focus stacking in-camera based on sensor shift (and indirectly a pathway to automatic focus optimisation for manual lenses). For macro work from a tripod or other rigid support, that would be a game changer for me provided the algorithms were good and the jpegs were clean and sharp.

Note that I would still buy an APS-C camera that had all of this, but the thought of using my old lenses at their proper fields of view is sufficiently exciting to make me want the full-frame sensor.
01-26-2016, 05:32 AM   #49
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I've recently - for reasons I won't bore you with - regained possession of stacks of slides i shot in the 90s, mostly on a Z-1 and been scanning some of the better ones to upload onto Flickr - and I have to say that while I was very happy with my K-3 (and K10D before it), and it will still be the go to camera for macro, I'd forgotten how much difference FF makes in terms of how subjects pop out of defocused backgrounds - that little bit of extra defocus at a given f-stop makes a big difference - and that's why I'll be trying to earn the price of the FF.

01-26-2016, 06:24 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by discharged Quote
First off, Ricoh imaging has a small market share, that is correct. But Ricoh is no small company.

Looking at forbes for 2015 Ricoh is placed at number 718 with 108195 employees
The last 10 years Ricoh has made a profit 9 years giving a surplus of $4.675 B

Values for 2015

Sales: $21.3 B
Profit: $771 M
Assets $22.9 B
Market value $8.2 B

Also, Ricoh is on a positive trend when it comes to profit. The sales and the assets has gone down the last years for Ricoh, canon and Sony. For both Sony and Canon this has made an impact on thier profit (in sonys case a bigger loss than the previous year)... Ricoh on the other hand has increased their profit. So somehow they have found a way in a recession in their niche to generate income.

So to summarize. I think we should let Ricoh decide what to go for, it seems they are fairly successful at making the right decision at the right time...
Ricoh's market cap is slowly going down and reaching it's longtime low. So while Ricoh is a very good company, some how investosr are expecting a little more. Ricoh does sometimes close down small businesses that don't meet their financial goals or not longer part of their strategy. The camera business never had that, while I don't think it was profitable all last 10 years (where Pentax is only part of that since november 2011).

https://ycharts.com/companies/RICOY/market_cap

When Ricoh bought Pentax they where somewhere around #490 in the Forbes global 500. So they became a smaller company, or some Chinese company's just became bigger in the last 5 years.
01-26-2016, 07:15 AM   #51
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So the FUD of the day is "OMG, Ricoh might close down Ricoh Imaging"?
"The high value added hi-end cameras and RICOH THETA have grown well, and contributed to profits." - that was last year.
01-26-2016, 07:44 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
give us focus stacking in-camera based on sensor shift
In-camera focus stacking would be an awesome feature. But as we have discussed in the past, Pentax don't need sensor shift to achieve it. An easier way to do it would be to just make use of the AF micro-adjust feature already there in the camera firmware.
01-26-2016, 07:56 AM   #53
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To be honest, Ricoh's decision to display Theta at CES is probably the right call. Trying to get people to try something new and different, where they do have a lead over competitors (the Theta is better executed than the other spherical cameras I've seen), and drive Theta sales is probably a more viable strategy than attempting to get new users onto the K system at this time, for which there is no significant new product to present.

However, abandoning the full-frame project is likely to be a disastrous mistake. The upcoming full-frame camera is meant to be a halo product for the K system, demonstrating the very best engineering from Ricoh Imaging, and killing it puts Ricoh and the K system in danger of becoming irrelevant in the market.

01-26-2016, 08:35 AM - 2 Likes   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by bwDraco Quote
Ricoh's decision to display Theta at CES is probably the right call.
Probably true. No matter how great it is, I don't think, for example, that the Pentax FF would have been invited into the White House, like the Theta was recently:

01-26-2016, 09:13 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by bwDraco Quote
However, abandoning the full-frame project is likely to be a disastrous mistake.
"The avalanche has already started. It is too late for pebbles to vote" - Ambassador Kosh
01-26-2016, 10:20 AM - 2 Likes   #56
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Firstly I agree with what most people have said - Ricoh needs the full frame to command higher yields, to attract pro's and to provide progression in their range for serious amateurs.

Secondly the claim that Ricoh market cap has declined is true alonside all the other imaging companies in Japan whereas its UK listed shares showed a near doubling from 600 Yen to over 1100 yen!!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sclient=psy-ab&biw=2560&bih=1309&noj=1&q=ric....0.Lz-6S-L7zRA
Looks like the Japanese stock has ffallen from 17.5Y to 9.5Y in 5 years
https://ycharts.com/companies/RICOY

If you review the other camera makers - Canon, Nikon etc you will see a similar or even sharper decline - in Canon's casefrom 48Y to 27Y in 5 years
https://ycharts.com/companies/CAJ

Or in Nikon's case from 27Y to 14Y in 5 years
https://ycharts.com/companies/NINOY

Unfortunately all the camera firms have suffered from the decline of point and shoot and the move to phones, which is all the more reason for Pentax/Ricoh to keep developing products that can't be replaced by a phone (high end cameras, lenses, Theta, medium format, full frame etc!

Personally I think this is the most exciting 6 months to be a Pentaxian in living memory!

Jonlg
01-26-2016, 12:27 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonlg Quote
Firstly I agree with what most people have said - Ricoh needs the full frame to command higher yields, to attract pro's and to provide progression in their range for serious amateurs.

Secondly the claim that Ricoh market cap has declined is true alonside all the other imaging companies in Japan whereas its UK listed shares showed a near doubling from 600 Yen to over 1100 yen!!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sclient=psy-ab&biw=2560&bih=1309&noj=1&q=ric....0.Lz-6S-L7zRA
Looks like the Japanese stock has ffallen from 17.5Y to 9.5Y in 5 years
https://ycharts.com/companies/RICOY

If you review the other camera makers - Canon, Nikon etc you will see a similar or even sharper decline - in Canon's casefrom 48Y to 27Y in 5 years
https://ycharts.com/companies/CAJ

Or in Nikon's case from 27Y to 14Y in 5 years
https://ycharts.com/companies/NINOY

Unfortunately all the camera firms have suffered from the decline of point and shoot and the move to phones, which is all the more reason for Pentax/Ricoh to keep developing products that can't be replaced by a phone (high end cameras, lenses, Theta, medium format, full frame etc!

Personally I think this is the most exciting 6 months to be a Pentaxian in living memory!

Jonlg
Theta is something that can be potentially replaced by a smartphone - it's just 2 lens/sensor modules probably with synchronized shutters and the rest is software. Most phones already come with both front and back facing cameras, combine it with something like the Photo Sphere app that would fire both of them and there you have it.
01-26-2016, 12:38 PM - 1 Like   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by npc Quote
Theta is something that can be potentially replaced by a smartphone - it's just 2 lens/sensor modules probably with synchronized shutters and the rest is software. Most phones already come with both front and back facing cameras, combine it with something like the Photo Sphere app that would fire both of them and there you have it.
Really? You think the technology is that simple? If so, then why is

a. Nikon's entry such a kluge
b. hasn't Apple implemented this simple application in the iPhone6

Maybe because Ricoh has something unique and hard to do.

I want to invoke the loud invective clause but the thread Pilice would put me out the door for a timeout.
01-26-2016, 01:34 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Probably true. No matter how great it is, I don't think, for example, that the Pentax FF would have been invited into the White House, like the Theta was recently:

The YouTube Interview with President Obama - YouTube
Thanks for this. Watch ing it now. Well if Theta made it there then it is the Hot thing in town I guess.
01-26-2016, 01:45 PM   #60
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Wait - what?!!!! I thought they were Doomed!!
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