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02-18-2016, 01:18 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
The current Milbeaut does do 4K video. So if the hardware is actually limiting Pentax, that is because they are either using an ancient sensor or an ancient processor (and just call it new).
The Pentax website feature description suggests that they may indeed have carried over the previous PRIME III processor with some enhancements/tweaks to boost performance.

"The K-1 features a newly designed PRIME IV imaging engine. Compared with the previous PRIME III version, it is fine-tuned to process higher-resolution images, while boosting the operating frequency by nearly 50 percent."

It seems a fair claim that to allow 4K video on a high-resolution FF sensor would like have increased the cost considerably. However, it is still quite lame that Pentax could not even offer simple (and relatively cost-free) but useful improvements such as more options for recording bitrate and codec, and allow the option of recording with sensor SR on. Considering that they already increased the cost of the hardware by offering advanced features such as mic-input, headphone jack, even a built-in stereo mic instead of mono, it is very odd that they couldn't pay a little bit of attention to addressing these modest user needs. One could hope that perhaps they will address this with a firmware update...

02-18-2016, 01:41 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I don't care much about video duration. Quality and control over the video matters. And of course the look, and video cameras give results that reminds of smartphones, mostly because their sensors are as small or smaller than those used in a smartphone.

I agree, Pentax never promised anything. My bad for hoping that eventually they'd at least attempt to kind of catch up with 2013. Few years ago Olympus was saying exactly the same thing. But boy have things changed.

I do need a new lens, but I don't want to buy a lens for a (for me) dead system...
I suggest that you get what you want. really. It MIGHT be that Ricoh will be going after video, and aaaalll of that, but quite unlikely and especially in FF format. or 645. MAYBE in aps-c or Q-series in future, if any.If they would have liked to do that they would have already. New K-1 is capable to shoot good enough video.

If you really are interested in video so much, why complain, just get what you need(especially if Pentax is 'dead' to you).
02-18-2016, 02:26 PM - 3 Likes   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I don't care much about video duration. Quality and control over the video matters. And of course the look, and video cameras give results that reminds of smartphones, mostly because their sensors are as small or smaller than those used in a smartphone.

I agree, Pentax never promised anything. My bad for hoping that eventually they'd at least attempt to kind of catch up with 2013. Few years ago Olympus was saying exactly the same thing. But boy have things changed.

I do need a new lens, but I don't want to buy a lens for a (for me) dead system...
If I were in your shoes, I'd take a long hard look at the Panasonic GH4.

But I'd do it with considerably less drama
02-18-2016, 03:19 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
a video under 4GB would be very short, making it of little use.
Why making it little use? 4GB is fine for most forms of filmmaking. Usually takes aren't any longer than 2-3 minutes.

02-18-2016, 04:28 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
I'm not a videographer, but I use the video function of the K-3 reasonably often and have projects in the pipe where I would use it to produce something. If I needed more I would buy something specifically for that purpose.
i'd rephrase that a bit:
if the k1 delivers decent video (i hope towards nikon d750, which on specs alone was not heralded either at first..) i'll buy it as i have way too much nice lenses to go with it purely for photography & better lenses also do better video. So i have noticed with my k3. I don't need all the bells & whistles like 4k, sr, af..

If i need more for a specific project, i'll rent something..

this said, I am dissapointed to see 1080p 60i & no clean hdmi out.
02-18-2016, 07:18 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
i'd rephrase that a bit:
if the k1 delivers decent video (i hope towards nikon d750, which on specs alone was not heralded either at first..) i'll buy it as i have way too much nice lenses to go with it purely for photography & better lenses also do better video. So i have noticed with my k3. I don't need all the bells & whistles like 4k, sr, af..

If i need more for a specific project, i'll rent something..

this said, I am dissapointed to see 1080p 60i & no clean hdmi out.
Is there an indication that there is no clean hdmi out?
02-19-2016, 12:19 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Is there an indication that there is no clean hdmi out?
I've read that in either dpreview or the preview here. Not sure anymore..
02-19-2016, 03:54 AM - 1 Like   #83
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Could a cropped videomode in new firmware make it possible to get at least 1080/60p?

Use, for example, an aps-c sized part of the sensor, which when it comes to filming is big enough for most purposes.
Is it the process to count down pixelinfo from every pixel in the full format to HD that steals processorpower and limits it to 1080/30p?

And same question for 4K. Could it be possible to get it if you just use that size of the sensor that gives exact amount of pixels for 4K? That will actually be a little smaller than aps-c. But Panasonic GH4 uses a much smaller sensorarea.


Last edited by mrmentera; 02-19-2016 at 04:49 AM.
02-19-2016, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
Could a cropped videomode in new firmware make it possible to get at least 1080/60p?

Use, for example, an aps-c sized part of the sensor, which when it comes to filming is big enough for most purposes.
Is it the process to count down pixelinfo from every pixel in the full format to HD that steals processorpower and limits it to 1080/30p?

And same question for 4K. Could it be possible to get it if you just use that size of the sensor that gives exact amount of pixels for 4K? That will actually be a little smaller than aps-c. But Panasonic GH4 uses a much smaller sensorarea.
The image is already cropped because of that dreadful movie SR.

I think it is more likely that the encoder in that old Milbeaut processor is simply not capable of more.

About the Milbeaut M-7M series processor:
QuoteQuote:
In terms of video processing, proprietary algorithms make it possible for H.264/AVC compression and decompression on full.HD 30p and 60i video.
Btw., the Nikon D5100 is capable of recording raw video. Not quite 1080p, but still. The interesting bit is that it is capable of doing so by grabbing the live view, AND that Nikon more or less uses the same processors that Pentax does. Now, Pentax does have SR during live view. The good kind of SR, not movie SR. So with a hacked firmware... Not that it is going to happen, but still. If only Pentax would give developers like those guys from Magic Lantern access to the firmware, so they can create one that appeals to the video folks. Having 2 SD slots at their disposal perhaps 1080p raw is possible, and that would be pretty nice.

Anyway, back to Nikon and 4K:

The D5, which should be using some Milbeaut processor, does 4K, though only for 3 minutes.

The D500, using a APS-C sensor, does 4K for 30 minutes. However it does crop the frame down to 8 MP for 4K (which is 8 MP). So for some reason it can't do pixel binning to the extent that is necessary. Why... who knows. It's possible that the sensor readout speed just isn't that fast... it can't read 20 MP at least 24 times a second (and if it could, rolling shutter should be massive). However it does do 1080p videos using the full sensor... but perhaps it will not read all pixels but just, say, 4 MP, and then scale down from there. If Pentax were to take a 8 MP area from the 36 MP sensor we'd end up with a massive crop, far beyond what would be useful. And offering 4K for the sake of 4K, even if it is useless in the way it is implemented, is unnecessary IMHO.

I doubt that the D500 has the same processor as the K-1 though. It supports 1080p at 60 fps. Btw., the old D810 does do 1080p at 60 fps, too!

Looking further into Socionext (who do the Milbeaut processor) the latest processor they have on their website is that Milbeaut chip from 2013 that does only do 30p and 60i. Were any improvements on that only done for Nikon? That old chip will clearly not be capable of doing 4K, crop or no crop. In that case it isn't surprising that Pentax doesn't have access to the newer features. They may have to spend quite a bit to get a custom chip too. Or perhaps Nikon has an additional encoder chip in their cameras? Or maybe Socionext just didn't update their website. Btw. they do have a chip capable of encoding 4K at 60 fps in HEVC... but it's pretty massive. Looks bigger than the older DRIMe V found in the Samsung NX1 (which maxes out at 30 fps though).
02-19-2016, 06:01 PM   #85
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Here you go: Digital Cameras | Olympus just in case you need the link.
02-19-2016, 08:11 PM - 1 Like   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
To get 4k out of a full frame would make it a $3k+ body.

There are lots of compromising in this model, all of it to get sub $2k high resolution. They did it and will sell lots of them.

The lesson from samsung is fancy specs don't get sales. And if you don't get sales you cease to exist.
Pentax has several APS-C cameras, some lower end than others.

I hope the K-1 is the low-end full frame model, and they come up with a model with proper video features.

$3k is a good price when compared to all the other pro video cameras on the market. Especially with that sensor size and choice of lenses.

---------- Post added 02-19-16 at 07:16 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
If I were in your shoes, I'd take a long hard look at the Panasonic GH4.

But I'd do it with considerably less drama
The GH4 uses a 4/3" sensor. We are talking about a camera with a MUCH smaller sensor size than a K-1 .
Smaller than APS-C, even. Apples and oranges.

It is a shame that Panasonic is using those small sensors, when they clearly have the best video features on the market in their cameras.



---------- Post added 02-19-16 at 07:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Imp Quote
Why making it little use? 4GB is fine for most forms of filmmaking. Usually takes aren't any longer than 2-3 minutes.
My primary use for video recording is for live music recording. Even if the takes aren't more than 2-3 minutes, restarting the camera so often is a major inconvenience.
Even my 8 year old Canon camcorder that uses FAT16 can do continuous recording and creates a new video file every 2GB. I think Panasonic figured it out, too.
Having the camera just stop when not intended is unacceptable , IMO. This is certainly not an issue of sensor heat on my K-30 in my experience - restarting the camera doesn't cause overheating. It's purely a firmware limitation.
There are no valid excuses in terms of limited hardware or CPU that apply to this case.
02-19-2016, 10:22 PM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by madbrain Quote
The GH4 uses a 4/3" sensor. We are talking about a camera with a MUCH smaller sensor size than a K-1 .
Smaller than APS-C, even. Apples and oranges.

It is a shame that Panasonic is using those small sensors, when they clearly have the best video features on the market in their cameras.
The answer is more nuanced than that. If someone is shooting with lights and locked down, the GH4 can produce nice files. Not only that, but people love showing shots of a full frame camera with a fast lens. The part of the story that you don't here is that in uncontrolled situations like a concert, that full frame camera with fast lens is losing focus constantly as the subject moves through a paper thin DOF. I even saw a PBS documentary where the crew was obviously doing this for an interview subject that had a habit of leaning into the camera, ruining focus a key part of the story.

In these situations the deeper DOF of the smaller sensors may actually help. I know a pro event photog that gave up his 5D IIs with F2.8 glass for a pair of GH4s with the Panny F2.8 zooms. This guy has high standards-he used to shoot street with a Hassy-and he loves his new kit and shoots both stills and video with it.
02-20-2016, 03:31 AM - 1 Like   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
The answer is more nuanced than that. If someone is shooting with lights and locked down, the GH4 can produce nice files. Not only that, but people love showing shots of a full frame camera with a fast lens. The part of the story that you don't here is that in uncontrolled situations like a concert, that full frame camera with fast lens is losing focus constantly as the subject moves through a paper thin DOF. I even saw a PBS documentary where the crew was obviously doing this for an interview subject that had a habit of leaning into the camera, ruining focus a key part of the story.

In these situations the deeper DOF of the smaller sensors may actually help. I know a pro event photog that gave up his 5D IIs with F2.8 glass for a pair of GH4s with the Panny F2.8 zooms. This guy has high standards-he used to shoot street with a Hassy-and he loves his new kit and shoots both stills and video with it.
There's always the option of stopping down though if you need more DoF. And the bigger sensor means you can actually shoot stopped down, at least if there is full sensor readout. A K-1 would give more choices for the look of the video.

Post like this Why the Olympus OM-D E-M1 is better than expected for video (Review) could be written over the K-1. With just a couple of firmware tweaks. If developing a video firmware costs money they don't want to make you guys pay, how about charging for it? Panasonic is charging $100 for 1 (!) feature. That exists in the regular firmware, but is simply deactivated.

And if the K-1 could have LOG (who knows, maybe the flat profile is close?), full sensor readout (we can't tell yet, but since people who tried it said video has improved it's possible), higher bitrate video recording AND SR it could still be a viable and even attractive choice for videographers. There is no DSLR with a big sensor, SR and flip out screen, especially not one that looks like it will survive regular abuse for a very long time. IMHO 60i isn't such a big issue, it was just disappointing to see them not upgrade the specs yet again.

Olympus doesn't make a camera yet that I really want, but they are pushing in the right direction. Probably the next major release will be it, though I'm not too fond of mFT sensors. The a6300 is nice, but lacks SR, and I hate the form factor. Pentax is still closest to what I want, but not making use of the potential. I'd pay for a firmware fixing those things.
02-20-2016, 05:34 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
The image is already cropped because of that dreadful movie SR.

I think it is more likely that the encoder in that old Milbeaut processor is simply not capable of more.
Thanks for god info!
Is it beyond all doubts that mechanical SR on the sensor canīt be used in movie-mode? Hadnīt K-5 and K-3 sensor-SR in moviemode?
02-20-2016, 05:54 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
Thanks for god info!
Is it beyond all doubts that mechanical SR on the sensor canīt be used in movie-mode? Hadnīt K-5 and K-3 sensor-SR in moviemode?
The K-5 had. All subsequent cameras from Pentax did not (except for the K-5 II and K-5 IIs). And maybe the MX-1. We don't know for certain yet if the K-1 will be able to do it or not, but apparently they call the SR in video mode Movie SR. That's the name they used for the electronic SR, which causes lots of problems, and works only when you shoot with a very fast shutter speed. Which you usually try to avoid, because it looks choppy and stuttering. Movie SR so far also always meant that there'd be a crop, AFAIK even when deactivated. So far Movie SR never had a connection to the sensors detecting camera movements, so the camera uses the image itself to determine camera shake and stabilize it. This leads to the camera thinking there is movement to correct when it is the subject that is moving... you'd have a stable subject with moving background. And then it jumps back as you hit the edge of the frame. Generally speaking it is a terrible, terrible idea. The drawbacks are so big that even though Nikon has access to the same system (it's a feature of the Milbeaut processor), they don't use it. And they do not have proper SR in the body.

During live view proper SR does work on the K-3. All that would be necessary would be to record that feed. Not possible though, so... until Pentax changes their mind (good luck with that) there won't be SR.

Basically, no guarantee that the K-1 won't have proper SR in movie mode, but highly unlikely.
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