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07-12-2016, 03:46 PM   #61
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This is the same strategy as Sony with A7 familly (theses are extremely expensive), Canon and Nikon as well as Fuji or even Olympus.

While tamron and Sigma have lenses like 28-75 or 70-200 with fantastic value, the main manufacturers make you pay a lot for the glass.

07-12-2016, 04:21 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by CypherOz Quote
Pentax needs a big price drop on glass.
Cameras have an expected useful life of 3 years, and little resale value (professional lease and replace model drives the market).

Lenses have an expected life of ten years.

When you think of it that way cameras are far more expensive than lenses.
07-12-2016, 10:40 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Cameras have an expected useful life of 3 years, and little resale value (professional lease and replace model drives the market).

Lenses have an expected life of ten years.

When you think of it that way cameras are far more expensive than lenses.
I am not sure you would loose much money by buying a D610 at 1100€ or a K50 at 300€. It seems there a minimum price that even old camera keep. You don't go much less than the cheapest price for a camera of the given format..

You can find a new APSC for €300, so most used APSC camera will sell at least that or maybe 200-250€. You can find a new FF for €1000 (A7) so used FF will be sold at least for €800.

If you buy something near theses minimum price, the gear should kit its value for a longer time. So buy a K50 or D610 and you are quite safe.
07-13-2016, 02:28 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I am not sure you would loose much money by buying a D610 at 1100 or a K50 at 300. It seems there a minimum price that even old camera keep. You don't go much less than the cheapest price for a camera of the given format..

You can find a new APSC for 300, so most used APSC camera will sell at least that or maybe 200-250. You can find a new FF for 1000 (A7) so used FF will be sold at least for 800.

If you buy something near theses minimum price, the gear should kit its value for a longer time. So buy a K50 or D610 and you are quite safe.
That's just being argumentative. You can buy an 18~55 kit lens for $60 to go with a used K50 too.

What does that have to do with FF Lenses?

07-13-2016, 04:17 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That's just being argumentative. You can buy an 18~55 kit lens for $60 to go with a used K50 too.

What does that have to do with FF Lenses?
Just a reply to your comment on body life span and resale value opposed to lenses life span and resale value.

Entry level body of each format hold they value so basically if you buy the entry level and update it from time to time you spend almost nothing and still get nice setup. Soon K3 willfor 350€ used (its 500€ now) and if you resell your K30 for 250€ that a huge upgrade for... 100€. Same apply for FF but more 900/1000€ being the bottom price.

Lenses is the complete opposite. Entry level lenses don't hold they value except once it is under €100.

Look old 55-300 vs new, look DA50, DA35 prices, look 18-135... Each time it didn't took much time for that to happen. Even the DAltd, you buy one new for 500€ today, you resell it tomorrow for 300€ used. The DA12-24 is 850€ it resell 450€. Only the top of lines lenses or FF lenses kept their value FAltds, FA50/FA35. new DFA lenses don't count we don't know yet. The most basic kit lens kept its value (18-55) but only if brought bundled with a body. Even the 50-200 bundled is not at an interresting price.

Now people want FF lenses and they want silent drive. And Ricoh does exactly that. Except a few, screw drive, SDM lenses, DA lenses will loose their value. And as the price of FF will go down (soon 1200€ new I guess) and pentax will add an entry level FF with 24MP or something the old lenses will not sell for much.
07-13-2016, 04:31 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Just a reply to your comment on body life span and resale value opposed to lenses life span and resale value.

Entry level body of each format hold they value so basically if you buy the entry level and update it from time to time you spend almost nothing and still get nice setup. Soon K3 willfor 350€ used (its 500€ now) and if you resell your K30 for 250€ that a huge upgrade for... 100€. Same apply for FF but more 900/1000€ being the bottom price.

Lenses is the complete opposite. Entry level lenses don't hold they value except once it is under €100.

Look old 55-300 vs new, look DA50, DA35 prices, look 18-135... Each time it didn't took much time for that to happen. Even the DAltd, you buy one new for 500€ today, you resell it tomorrow for 300€ used. The DA12-24 is 850€ it resell 450€. Only the top of lines lenses or FF lenses kept their value FAltds, FA50/FA35. new DFA lenses don't count we don't know yet. The most basic kit lens kept its value (18-55) but only if brought bundled with a body. Even the 50-200 bundled is not at an interresting price.

Now people want FF lenses and they want silent drive. And Ricoh does exactly that. Except a few, screw drive, SDM lenses, DA lenses will loose their value. And as the price of FF will go down (soon 1200€ new I guess) and pentax will add an entry level FF with 24MP or something the old lenses will not sell for much.
Except we're talking about buying new lenses in this post, not used digital bodies. I was merely commenting that camera introductory prices decrease over time. Lens introductory prices rise, especially at the high end.

I paid a lot more for my K10D than my K-1.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-13-2016 at 04:37 AM.
07-13-2016, 04:44 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Lenses have an expected life of ten years.

I'm puzzled by that statement. I'm sure many of us are using lens twice as old as that. I know I have lens, my 50mm f1.2 and 24mm f2.8 for example, that are probably 30 years old and they still look and function as new. I know of no tax/business equipment depreciation based on the 10 year model(I could be wrong) so I am curious what that 10 year life expectancy represents.
07-13-2016, 05:04 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by sibyrnes Quote
I'm puzzled by that statement. I'm sure many of us are using lens twice as old as that. I know I have lens, my 50mm f1.2 and 24mm f2.8 for example, that are probably 30 years old and they still look and function as new. I know of no tax/business equipment depreciation based on the 10 year model(I could be wrong) so I am curious what that 10 year life expectancy represents.
There are two distinctions:

1. Modern AF premium lenses versus legacy manual focus premium lenses.
2. The length of time the manufacturer must produce a modern premium lens (10 years is an estimate) to recoup development costs, versus camera costs. We don't replace our lenses every 2 or three years.

And it is a generality, not a precise statement.


Last edited by monochrome; 07-13-2016 at 04:17 PM.
07-13-2016, 05:10 AM   #69
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Thanks for the explanation. I totally agree with your premise that lens are a better investment than cameras. My 50mm 1.2 is now worth a lot more than my LX bodies even though at the time it was less expensive!


Ten year from now my K1 will probably make a good door stop!

Last edited by sibyrnes; 07-13-2016 at 05:17 AM.
07-13-2016, 01:23 PM   #70
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For the lenses that are 30 years old and still work well, one can ask himself how intensive was the usage. The old lenses of my daddy didn't see much use for the last 20 years and before that due to price of film, it was limited.

I don't know what would be the life expectency of a lens if a pro work everyday with them (say for the 24-70 and 70-200 for weddings)... Honestly I have no idea. 10 years would be very good, but for most with not so much use, I would not be surprised if a good part of the lens would still work 20 years from now... If there still a body to use them.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 07-13-2016 at 01:31 PM.
07-13-2016, 03:56 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
the life expectency of a lens if a pro work everyday with them
Probably 3-5 years, maximum. Sometimes simply as a result of lease terms for a lot of pro gear. And only if the gear is pro build in the first place - eg 'metal clubs' like the Nikon 70-200 f2.8's or Pentax D FA 70-200 f2.8 will probably endure better than consumer grade lenses.

And of course where the pro works has to be factored in - a sports pro covering 70 football games a year in all weather conditions, vs a wedding pro in Montana doing 2 indoor weddings a month, vs a war-photographer in Yemen .
07-13-2016, 04:21 PM   #72
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And there's the matter of no electronics in a legacy manual lens, so especially the pro-built lenses have pretty much an infinite life expectancy if maintained, whereas electronics can terminally self-destruct ebb when a pro-grade lens is lightly used.

Again, I'm generalizing in part based on lengths of time modern lenses have been offered without material changes.
07-13-2016, 04:43 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'm pretty excited to use my manual focus lenses on the K-1. It will be interesting to read criticism of the old lenses that were intentionally designed to be soft at the edges. People who weren't alive when some of these lenses were assembled won't want them.

I'll bet they're as good as they were on film.
I Think Even BETTER on many of them......
Prepare to be WOWED ! Please Don't tell my 55 Yr Old Takumar 200mm 3.5 that its 40+ years past its Prime Life Expectancy......lol

Last edited by Dlanor Sekao; 07-13-2016 at 04:49 PM.
07-13-2016, 05:41 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
Please Don't tell my 55 Yr Old Takumar 200mm 3.5 that its 40+ years past its Prime Life Expectancy
If they spend their lives in dry environments, and are looked after moderately well, most Takumars, and most Pentax K and M series lenses, will probably outlive most of us, and keep working fine.
07-13-2016, 11:08 PM - 1 Like   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by carolina_sky Quote
We *really* need more 3rd party lens support for Pentax to get better lower cost options, and to encourage this Ricoh needs to get more bodies out there, so that also reinforces their cheaper body more expensive glass approach
Agree 100% ... I guess market pressure. I assume the K-1 is selling well and Ricoh/Pentax are happy and making a reasonable profit.
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