K1: No aperture sensing for "legacy" lenses?

**clackers** · 03-07-2016, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Gimbal

As for the reflected vs incident light, it’s the light that sticks on the sensor that counts. So you can’t beat the actual image sensor with any external light sensor.

It's all about ratios, and you don't even need your subject to be there, you can incidence meter beforehand and tell how much light is coming from the open window vs side fill from the nearby white wall.

To get your one stop difference from left to right on the face, you can move the reflector back until it's reading f5.6 instead of f8, for example.

I have a bottom-of-the-line Sekonic, and it does all I ever want.

Of course, flash is so easy to get right with a meter, and especially multiple flashes.

**Digitalis** · 03-08-2016, 03:12 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by osv

waiting to see if the k1 has wysiwg

WYSIWUG is a crutch for the creatively maladjusted, use your brain...it isn't hard.

i5_david · 03-08-2016, 04:05 AM

I forgot where we talked about AF fine-tuning (Adjustment) on old lenses but I think it fits here well.
Do you think we have the option to program different "Setups"? So lets say: the 28mm has a "-2 AF fine-tune setting" and the 50mm a "-4", that you can quickly choose between your individual programs instead of changing the AF adjustment deep down in the menu everytime anew? Can someone understand this? :P

**clackers** · 03-08-2016, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by i5_david

I forgot where we talked about AF fine-tuning (Adjustment) on old lenses but I think it fits here well.
Do you think we have the option to program different "Setups"? So lets say: the 28mm has a "-2 AF fine-tune setting" and the 50mm a "-4", that you can quickly choose between your individual programs instead of changing the AF adjustment deep down in the menu everytime anew? Can someone understand this? :P

I can see your point.

The camera doesn't know what manual lens is attached, but we do, so if we did an adjustment for it in the past why can't we recall that in, say, a scrollable list?

i5_david · 03-08-2016, 05:11 AM

Yep, this is excatly what meant

Would be a cool feature wouldn't it? So you don't need to carry that list in your camera bag or in your phone and don't have to set it up deep in the settings menu. May be this can be handled in the user mode? Haven't used this ever

vonBaloney · 03-08-2016, 08:17 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Digitalis

WYSIWUG is a crutch for the creatively maladjusted, use your brain...it isn't hard.

Well, I don't know about that, but having the displayed histogram and the bright/dark warning to not work in Manual mode is stupid (even with an 'A' lens or AF lens, so it isn't a crippled mount issue per se.) Although they are still active, they seem to refer to the auto-adjusting LCD itself, or to nothing at all, so you can get no information from them. And of course until you figure out that they don't work in manual mode, you might actually assume you are about to take a reasonably exposed picture based on the histogram when in fact you could be 10 stops underexposed and it will be pure black...

osv · 03-08-2016, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

Well, I don't know about that, but having the displayed histogram and the bright/dark warning to not work in Manual mode is stupid (even with an 'A' lens or AF lens, so it isn't a crippled mount issue per se.)

yes, i think that a camera needs some level of wysiwg capability in order to get that functionality... some nikon cameras will show a histogram in their liveview preview mode.

liveview histograms are generally luminance only, no rgb, good for a rough indication of exposure, but it's a lot better than nothing.

**clackers** · 03-08-2016, 05:26 PM

The histograms are at best showing you the dynamic range of the JPEG file, not the RAW capture. They can indicate blown highlights or clipped shadows when they won't be when you download the pics to your computer.

vonBaloney · 03-08-2016, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by clackers

The histograms are at best showing you the dynamic range of the JPEG file, not the RAW capture. They can indicate blown highlights or clipped shadows when they won't be when you download the pics to your computer.

In (M)anual, it doesn't reflect anything at all about the image you are capturing. Its just stays in the middle no matter what. If you are in a dimly lit room and set the aperture to f/22 and the shutter speed to 1/3000, it will look like everything is fine on the histogram. It should just shut off if it is going to do that. (I'm talking about the histogram during live view -- the one you can see after taking the image works as usual.)

osv · 03-08-2016, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

In (M)anual, it doesn't reflect anything at all about the image you are capturing. Its just stays in the middle no matter what. If you are in a dimly lit room and set the aperture to f/22 and the shutter speed to 1/3000, it will look like everything is fine on the histogram. It should just shut off if it is going to do that. (I'm talking about the histogram during live view -- the one you can see after taking the image works as usual.)

sony ff mirrorless behaves like that if you turn off the wysiwg functionality(setting effect OFF) in the menu... it's good for when you are shooting in a studio, with lighting that can't communicate well with the camera.

but it's not good for general shooting, you really want wysiwg with old legacy lenses.

**clackers** · 03-08-2016, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by vonBaloney

It should just shut off if it is going to do that.

I'm with ya, vonBaloney!

Gimbal · 03-09-2016, 12:30 AM

I have never even thought about looking at the histogram of the live view image.
Is that supposed to work, with any kind of accuracy?

jcdoss · 03-09-2016, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

I have never even thought about looking at the histogram of the live view image.
Is that supposed to work, with any kind of accuracy?

I'd also like to know if this is effective for Pentax Live View. I use the live histogram quite a lot on my Sony with adapted Pentax lenses and it works well.

npc · 03-09-2016, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

I have never even thought about looking at the histogram of the live view image.
Is that supposed to work, with any kind of accuracy?

What LV shows on the screen is (ok, at least K5IIs ) what the camera thinks is the correct exposure. It also takes into account any exposure compensation you dial in (you can see the screen goes brighter/darker if you change this) and the histogram is just calculated from the image shown on the screen.

Generally in Av/Tv/etc automatic modes it will try to match that exposure and the JPEG histogram will be the same if you take a picture as long as this exposure is obtainable with the range of settings the camera is allowed to set automatically. So in a way it is wysiwyg but only if you are not using flash and let the camera pick the settings. That's my experience at least.

However, if it is not possible to achieve that exposure (say you've boosted the ISO to max and the camera cannot pick high enough shutter speed) then the histogram still looks OK in LV, but the final image ca be severely under/over exposed (but there's indication on the screen that it cannot set the correct value). M mode of course it is totally disconnected from the dialed settings (except the exposure compensation value, but it has no effect in M mode anyway).

---------- Post added 03-09-16 at 10:14 AM ----------

Originally posted by jcdoss

I'd also like to know if this is effective for Pentax Live View. I use the live histogram quite a lot on my Sony with adapted Pentax lenses and it works well.

No. Or actually it is similar to it if you have the "Live View Display" set to "Settings Effect OFF". If using "Settings Effect ON" then Sonys are way more accurate...except maybe really long exposures where during refresh it cannot collect enough light to accurately simulate what the end image will look like.

osv · 03-09-2016, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by jcdoss

I'd also like to know if this is effective for Pentax Live View. I use the live histogram quite a lot on my Sony with adapted Pentax lenses and it works well.

no, because pentax does not have wysiwyg capability, that's why i keep asking if the k-1 has finally implemented it with liveview.

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03-07-2016, 08:57 PM	#91
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Gimbal As for the reflected vs incident light, it’s the light that sticks on the sensor that counts. So you can’t beat the actual image sensor with any external light sensor. It's all about ratios, and you don't even need your subject to be there, you can incidence meter beforehand and tell how much light is coming from the open window vs side fill from the nearby white wall. To get your one stop difference from left to right on the face, you can move the reflector back until it's reading f5.6 instead of f8, for example. I have a bottom-of-the-line Sekonic, and it does all I ever want. Of course, flash is so easy to get right with a meter, and especially multiple flashes.

03-08-2016, 03:12 AM - 1 Like	#92
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by osv waiting to see if the k1 has wysiwg WYSIWUG is a crutch for the creatively maladjusted, use your brain...it isn't hard.

03-08-2016, 04:05 AM	#93
i5_david Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 332	I forgot where we talked about AF fine-tuning (Adjustment) on old lenses but I think it fits here well. Do you think we have the option to program different "Setups"? So lets say: the 28mm has a "-2 AF fine-tune setting" and the 50mm a "-4", that you can quickly choose between your individual programs instead of changing the AF adjustment deep down in the menu everytime anew? Can someone understand this? :P

03-08-2016, 04:44 AM	#94
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by i5_david I forgot where we talked about AF fine-tuning (Adjustment) on old lenses but I think it fits here well. Do you think we have the option to program different "Setups"? So lets say: the 28mm has a "-2 AF fine-tune setting" and the 50mm a "-4", that you can quickly choose between your individual programs instead of changing the AF adjustment deep down in the menu everytime anew? Can someone understand this? :P I can see your point. The camera doesn't know what manual lens is attached, but we do, so if we did an adjustment for it in the past why can't we recall that in, say, a scrollable list?

03-08-2016, 05:11 AM	#95
i5_david Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 332	Yep, this is excatly what meant Would be a cool feature wouldn't it? So you don't need to carry that list in your camera bag or in your phone and don't have to set it up deep in the settings menu. May be this can be handled in the user mode? Haven't used this ever

03-08-2016, 08:17 AM - 1 Like	#96
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by Digitalis WYSIWUG is a crutch for the creatively maladjusted, use your brain...it isn't hard. Well, I don't know about that, but having the displayed histogram and the bright/dark warning to not work in Manual mode is stupid (even with an 'A' lens or AF lens, so it isn't a crippled mount issue per se.) Although they are still active, they seem to refer to the auto-adjusting LCD itself, or to nothing at all, so you can get no information from them. And of course until you figure out that they don't work in manual mode, you might actually assume you are about to take a reasonably exposed picture based on the histogram when in fact you could be 10 stops underexposed and it will be pure black...

03-08-2016, 09:52 AM	#97
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by vonBaloney Well, I don't know about that, but having the displayed histogram and the bright/dark warning to not work in Manual mode is stupid (even with an 'A' lens or AF lens, so it isn't a crippled mount issue per se.) yes, i think that a camera needs some level of wysiwg capability in order to get that functionality... some nikon cameras will show a histogram in their liveview preview mode. liveview histograms are generally luminance only, no rgb, good for a rough indication of exposure, but it's a lot better than nothing.

03-08-2016, 05:26 PM	#98
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	The histograms are at best showing you the dynamic range of the JPEG file, not the RAW capture. They can indicate blown highlights or clipped shadows when they won't be when you download the pics to your computer.

03-08-2016, 05:45 PM	#99
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by clackers The histograms are at best showing you the dynamic range of the JPEG file, not the RAW capture. They can indicate blown highlights or clipped shadows when they won't be when you download the pics to your computer. In (M)anual, it doesn't reflect anything at all about the image you are capturing. Its just stays in the middle no matter what. If you are in a dimly lit room and set the aperture to f/22 and the shutter speed to 1/3000, it will look like everything is fine on the histogram. It should just shut off if it is going to do that. (I'm talking about the histogram during live view -- the one you can see after taking the image works as usual.)

03-08-2016, 06:28 PM	#100
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by vonBaloney In (M)anual, it doesn't reflect anything at all about the image you are capturing. Its just stays in the middle no matter what. If you are in a dimly lit room and set the aperture to f/22 and the shutter speed to 1/3000, it will look like everything is fine on the histogram. It should just shut off if it is going to do that. (I'm talking about the histogram during live view -- the one you can see after taking the image works as usual.) sony ff mirrorless behaves like that if you turn off the wysiwg functionality(setting effect OFF) in the menu... it's good for when you are shooting in a studio, with lighting that can't communicate well with the camera. but it's not good for general shooting, you really want wysiwg with old legacy lenses.

03-08-2016, 06:28 PM	#101
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by vonBaloney It should just shut off if it is going to do that. I'm with ya, vonBaloney!

03-09-2016, 12:30 AM	#102
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	I have never even thought about looking at the histogram of the live view image. Is that supposed to work, with any kind of accuracy?

03-09-2016, 08:21 AM	#103
jcdoss Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Ingelheim am Rhein, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,769	Originally posted by Gimbal I have never even thought about looking at the histogram of the live view image. Is that supposed to work, with any kind of accuracy? I'd also like to know if this is effective for Pentax Live View. I use the live histogram quite a lot on my Sony with adapted Pentax lenses and it works well.

03-09-2016, 09:00 AM	#104
npc Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 313	Originally posted by Gimbal I have never even thought about looking at the histogram of the live view image. Is that supposed to work, with any kind of accuracy? What LV shows on the screen is (ok, at least K5IIs ) what the camera thinks is the correct exposure. It also takes into account any exposure compensation you dial in (you can see the screen goes brighter/darker if you change this) and the histogram is just calculated from the image shown on the screen. Generally in Av/Tv/etc automatic modes it will try to match that exposure and the JPEG histogram will be the same if you take a picture as long as this exposure is obtainable with the range of settings the camera is allowed to set automatically. So in a way it is wysiwyg but only if you are not using flash and let the camera pick the settings. That's my experience at least. However, if it is not possible to achieve that exposure (say you've boosted the ISO to max and the camera cannot pick high enough shutter speed) then the histogram still looks OK in LV, but the final image ca be severely under/over exposed (but there's indication on the screen that it cannot set the correct value). M mode of course it is totally disconnected from the dialed settings (except the exposure compensation value, but it has no effect in M mode anyway). ---------- Post added 03-09-16 at 10:14 AM ---------- Originally posted by jcdoss I'd also like to know if this is effective for Pentax Live View. I use the live histogram quite a lot on my Sony with adapted Pentax lenses and it works well. No. Or actually it is similar to it if you have the "Live View Display" set to "Settings Effect OFF". If using "Settings Effect ON" then Sonys are way more accurate...except maybe really long exposures where during refresh it cannot collect enough light to accurately simulate what the end image will look like.

03-09-2016, 11:39 AM	#105
osv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: So Cal Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,080	Originally posted by jcdoss I'd also like to know if this is effective for Pentax Live View. I use the live histogram quite a lot on my Sony with adapted Pentax lenses and it works well. no, because pentax does not have wysiwyg capability, that's why i keep asking if the k-1 has finally implemented it with liveview.