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04-14-2016, 05:10 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
...at the risk of sounding egotistical, I think it's largely the photo industry's standard. Connectivity has changed the industry, making it easier than even to connect your camera to your other devices. Touch screens have made it 10x faster to pull focus, changes setting, etc. Sony and samsung even allow you to charge your cameras over usb power. So, no more switching out batteries. Just plug it in and you are ready to go. There are even some DIY ways to attach a power bank to the hot shoe for endless hours of shooting. Man power banks cost about the same (if not less) of the official batteries and will give you several times the charge. Most of the time the battery grip will suffice but it's nice that we not have that option. There is more. The sony systems have cross brand compatibility. So, you can stick a canon flash on an a6000 and it would fire fine, without any special adapters or anything. Think about this. This is huge. It almost got me to go with sony.
OK, I get it now... Honestly, I don't think Pentax is for you. Not saying this to be argumentative or antagonistic - with respect, I actually think, for you, it's true. There are so many satisfied Pentax users, including many who've switched because of the way Pentax cameras operate (I switched from a Nikon D40X to Pentax K-7 some years ago, and never moved away from Pentax since - other than to add a non-Pentax FF dream camera to my collection ). No manufacturer will produce a product that everyone likes. Ricoh is producing - first and foremost - what its core customer base wants, but there will be plenty of people - yourself included - for whom those products don't measure up. That's fine - all well and good. Better that, however, than for Ricoh to alienate the core user base who want and expect their cameras to work in a certain way. What's good and bad in camera design is very subjective, isn't it? There's really no right or wrong, rarely any better or worse... those are subjective appraisals

04-14-2016, 05:18 PM - 1 Like   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
and finally a k20
So the last Pentax you shot with was the k20? Meaning you missed the k-x, the k-r, the k-7, the k-5 series, the k-30 and k-50, the k-3 series, the k-s1 and k-s2?

That makes sense. I can see why all that experience would make you an expert on Pentax camera design. k-20 was released in what 2008?

And now you shoot with what, an NX1? ROFL
QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
at the risk of sounding egotistical
No risk whatsoever.

I love this thread, just keeps me laughing...............

---------- Post added 04-14-16 at 05:19 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Honestly, I don't think Pentax is for you.
I'm pretty sure he knows that. I might be wrong but maybe he is just messing with us?
04-14-2016, 05:47 PM   #138
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Switching cameras systems isn't easy, so naturally i looked at other pentax cameras first since it would mean I could keep using my lenses. I looked at the k30 in particular, but the autofocus just wasn't there. Good autofocus isn't just about speed, it's about how smart it is (sony is brilliant here.) Very quirky, looked like it hunted a lot in videos I saw on youtube and not very capable in all but the simplest, least demanding of situations. Video is important for me as well, and the K3 doesn't even have continuous af in video. Pentax video is still in the age of horse drawn carriages. The k30 just looks dated and that turned me off. Pentax didn't have any full frame options at the time either or frankly anything really suited for my needs.

The NX1 beats pentax for a lot of the basic departments. Since it's release, it's gotten 4 firmware updates, which make it even more a beast. The camera store tv actually compares it to a pentax interesting enough in their review and they say it beasts it for high iso although this isn't really a concern of mine. The NX1 has an OLED screen, pentax has yet make any great advances in this area. LCD screens are notoriously hard to see in daylight. I can barely see the live view on my nikon. The NX1 also tracks way better than any pentax ever released, and I will stand by that, especially with the latest firmware upgrades. The NX1 has focus peaking too, which is huge for me as a portrait shooter. Inspite of being the new kid of the block it actually beat out the K3 according to preview. You can go see for yourself, not I have any doubt the k3 is a nice camera.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/samsung-nx1/14
04-14-2016, 05:50 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Switching cameras systems isn't easy,
True.
QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
The NX1 beats pentax for a lot of the basic departments. Since it's release, it's gotten 4 firmware updates, which make it even more a beast. The camera store tv actually compares it to a pentax interesting enough in their review and they say it beasts it for high iso although this isn't really a concern of mine. The NX1 has an OLED screen, pentax has yet make any great advances in this area. LCD screens are notoriously hard to see in daylight. I can barely see the live view on my nikon. The NX1 also tracks way better than any pentax ever released, and I will stand by that, especially with the latest firmware upgrades. The NX1 has focus peaking too, which is huge for me as a portrait shooter. Inspite of being the new kid of the block it actually beat out the K3 according to preview.
This will most likely be a shock to you, but I honestly I don't care.

04-14-2016, 05:51 PM - 1 Like   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote


In some ways, pentax is ahead of it's time,but in other ways it's still playing catch up and I think this is why more people dont use them in spite of the fact that they are pretty good.


Actually neo, this may be some breaking news for you, but the main reason more people don't use Pentax has to do with marketing not with how a camera looks.


I'll explain it to you. If there are 1000 brick and mortar camera stores in the USA and 10 of those stores sell Pentax but all 1000 sell Nikon, Canon and Sony, how many more people will buy a Nikon, Canon or Sony before buying a Pentax? Now throw in places like Walmart, Target and Best Buy. Are you starting to see now?


This is the reason why more people do not use Pentax. It's all because of marketing.


You said in another post neo, that you only used Pentax for three years. Three years and all you have been doing is complaining about how they look. I have been using Pentax for 35 years. My first was a KM with a 50mm lens and it felt fine and looked like a camera. If you want to say Pentax is a bad design then so be it, just stop with the panning because that is what you are doing.


I, myself, do not like the way the Nikon and Canon FF look. They look like somebody who makes bricks for a living designed them, but guess what, I'm not going to go onto a forum for Nikon or Canon and say that because it doesn't matter. If the camera you use works for you, wonderful, great, just stop complaining about the other cameras out there because other people are buying them and using them and like them for what they are.
04-14-2016, 06:14 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
The NX1 beats pentax for a lot of the basic departments....
No, sorry, it may beat some Pentax cameras but, your NX1 is missing that one thing I can't do without: A prism.

Don't get me wrong - it looks like a nice and very capable camera. I'm not knocking your camera, it;'s makers, it's looks, etc. But you will not be able to sell me one because it's not a "real" camera, in my view, without a "real" viewfinder.
I suggest we cease the back and forth bickering. You're not going to like (most) Pentaxes and chances are, most of us here, like Pentaxes! (I could be wrong, but I suspect not!)
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
04-14-2016, 06:19 PM - 1 Like   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Switching cameras systems isn't easy, so naturally i looked at other pentax cameras first since it would mean I could keep using my lenses. I looked at the k30 in particular, but the autofocus just wasn't there.
I've never had a problem shooting sports with the K-30 - cars, cricketers, footballers, cricketers, cyclists, runners - even rodeo stars.

Happy to see any action pics you've taken yourself with an NX-1, that we hacks couldn't. ☺


Last edited by clackers; 04-14-2016 at 07:31 PM.
04-14-2016, 06:59 PM   #143
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That guy in the background looks like hes shooting with a NX1, have to be, he would need to get that close seeing the longest native lens is a massive 200mm.

04-14-2016, 10:33 PM   #144
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Hm, just like the most focus points on a pentax is a massive 33? The NX1 has over 200 points. Just like the highest resolution video a pentax can shoot is a massive 1080, only a 1/4 of what the NX1 does? Like the fastest a pentax can shoot is a massive 8 fps almost half of the NX1s 15 fps? And honestly from 10 feet away, you really think you need a 200mm lens? An 85 would do just fine. The lens lineup isn't ideal for sports but even with an 85mm + 24 mp of cropping I was able to get some decent shots. With a 200mm and being close to the action you should be fine.

That prism has it's pros and cons (inspite of the EVF the NX1 only gets 200 shots less than the K-1.) It saves battery life, well some anyway, but you are limited by what you eye can see. An evf can allow you to manual focus in a very low light. Not to mention that prism is gonna give you your fair share of chimping.
04-14-2016, 11:49 PM   #145
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Too bad NX-1 and all it's forthcomming improvements are now out of the industrial world.

Too bad, because Samsung did a revolutionnary design and very ergonomic mirrorless with NX-1.
04-15-2016, 02:58 AM   #146
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It amuses me when people who claims to know better are giving Samsung as a positive example. Oh, yes, the NX-1 is impressively fast, with OK-ish ergonomics (a far cry from Pentax', of course, but as DSLR-like as I've ever seen in a MILC). But Samsung, just like our not-so-skilled web designer here, doesn't get cameras. In particular, their attempts at combining smartphones with cameras was an utter failure.

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Well lets see my first pentax ever was the ist ds. Then I owned a k10, and finally a k20. They were nice for what they were I guess. Nice colors, and pretty compact. I shot pentax for almost 3 years. I might still be shooting with them if they had shown more willingness to modernize and focus on human aspect of things.
Pentax is arguably the best at the "human aspect of things".

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
The sony systems have cross brand compatibility. So, you can stick a canon flash on an a6000 and it would fire fine, without any special adapters or anything. Think about this. This is huge. It almost got me to go with sony.
You are funny, selling cucumbers to the gardener Have you heard of a thing called a standard hotshoe? Pentax has it.

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Everything is done by designers, dude. Canonikon has designers, etc I dont know if you notice, but the design of the K-01 wasn't exactly a huge success. In fact, it was universally panned. The iPhone doesn't need to be ergonomic at least not in the same way an slr does. You hold a phone differently than you do a camera. I did mention this, i guess you just missed it. Form follows function, at least it should in the most basic sense. Cameras are held with one hand so they need to be designed to comfortably do so. It's design that made apple's brand more than just tech item, and one of the most recognized and sought after brands in the world. The iPhone doesn't need to have a grip like an slur does but it completes its function with form beautifully. It's simplicity at it's finest. Apple products have won just about every design award out there. Steve jobs said the user experience should come first and then the tech should come after that, not the other way around as pentax seems to be doing.
You might be a "dude", but I'm not - don't call me that.

I was obviously referring to "generalist" industrial designers, people not specialized in cameras. The K-01 was designed by such a man, and one with a very good reputation - Marc Newson. He's working for Apple now, by the way, perhaps involved in the latest iPhone models.
So your attempts at claiming that Pentax is making ugly cameras and should get the help of "designers" backfired, badly. You failed.

Oh, as a side note, Pentax DSLRs are better suited to be used with one hand than most other ILCs. And a smartphone has the worst possible shape for a camera, you don't even know that?

Better keep quiet for a while and listen to the professionals at work:
Challengers | PENTAX K-1 Special site | RICOH IMAGING
Challengers | PENTAX K-1 Special site | RICOH IMAGING

The Pentax K-1 must be the most user-friendly full-frame camera.
04-15-2016, 04:04 AM   #147
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There's much too much crap here for me to read the thread in detail. Perhaps it is stated explicitly somewhere here, but I can't be bothered to check. So I get the impression that Neostyles's occupation is related to styling, and that he is very proud of the fact. He then becomes a self-appointed expert on what constitutes good style. And whereas I do believe that there are such things as good taste and bad taste, I don't see anything here that convinces me that Neostyles' taste necessarily belongs in the GOOD category. He may express his dogma as much as he likes, but it convinces nobody, especially since he even insists on dictating what users should find functionally superior. He is truly boring.
04-15-2016, 04:36 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote

That back switch for af point selection left a lot to be desired. It was just poor design. It was just so bad that I never even bothered to use it. ...

I always used found using the left and right buttons for cycling through your images to be a bit clunky and slow ...

... You know, the camera detects when there is a low ambient light and when you open the side door, it automatically lights up. ...

The third command dial is a neat idea, but it involves making a compromise that I wouldn't have made : making the the top deck lcd smaller. I use my top deck lcd all the time to change settings on the fly in the middle of a shoot. Samsung does this in a smarter way, with the i function on their lenses that allows you to use the scroll wheels instead of having to clutter things up with more controls.
I rarely used the AF mode selection dial. I left AF in the mode I prefer. I do the same now. Images can be reviewed on K20 by using the command dials. I was unaware I had an option in using the arrow keys.

I think an option to have the little LEDs light up when darkness descends is fine. I wouldn't want auto illumination only. Whenever I have needed light, the need has not been consistent. Many things I can do without light.. I expect I will be able to find the button to illuminate the lights. I would rather take the time to learn the location that have a lighted button on at all times.

Whether the lights will be useful to me depends on how little illumination they can provide. The light I use now is able to be turned to fractions of a lumen.

I am not sure if I will like the smaller LCD panel.. Really, though, I look at it for only a few infos and I think that stuff will be represented. It does show which card slot is being written to and that is good.

I think the idea behind the third command dial is to have direct access and so an i-function button is not needed. The selector dial is added so it is easy to change the function of the third command dial. Some people may change this function often.. I suspect I will not. If function is less frequently changed, I think a button push and then scroll to select the function of the third command dial (similar to scrolling to select drive mode) would suit me just fine.

Most of these things from auto lights or not to function dial for 3rd command dial or button based selection are choices made to suit preferences... Most of the choices made by Pentax are suitable to me. Some I might like to see done a bit differently. I gather most of the choices made are not suitable for you and a few appear to cause you displeasure (if not discomfiture).

It is fun to design things as part of a mind thought experiment. It is interesting to choose Pentax as the 'raw material' for this imaginary product. I am happy building a mind-camera from an existing Pentax design, but I might think a person with few ties to Pentax might choose another brand. After all, why choose a camera with sharp planes and angles when a smoother look is desired. Wouldn't a curvy Canon body be the better choice of a starting point.. build from there and have fun :^) add auto illumination to the body you favor rather than adding it to the body you dislike.

I like stuff with more sharply defined edges.
I was not happy when cars went through the curvy saddle soaped look
I don't want to drive a ju-ju-jelly roll :^|

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 06:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
This is fascinating..............
It is.
I do perceive a school of thought that cherishes complexity and redundancy, however I have never called it 'traditional'. I have identified this counter productive behavior as either bureaucratic or administrative...

'Traditional' might be a new label and perhaps it is driven by a generational swing. On the other hand, this could be a one-off characterization. Guess we will have to see how things progress the next few years.

Hermes the Futurama character may be a 'traditionalist' when the series is rebooted.

---------- Post added 04-15-16 at 07:06 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
... But it seems like if they put a little bit more effort into things, they could get to a modern standard of usability. ...
I believe your inability to understand and then admit the points discussed are choices made to suit different preferences is intentional.
04-15-2016, 06:14 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
There's much too much crap here for me to read the thread in detail. Perhaps it is stated explicitly somewhere here, but I can't be bothered to check. So I get the impression that Neostyles's occupation is related to styling, and that he is very proud of the fact. He then becomes a self-appointed expert on what constitutes good style. And whereas I do believe that there are such things as good taste and bad taste, I don't see anything here that convinces me that Neostyles' taste necessarily belongs in the GOOD category. He may express his dogma as much as he likes, but it convinces nobody, especially since he even insists on dictating what users should find functionally superior. He is truly boring.
I'm only saying this because he claims to be a "designer" and how that this gives him some sort of authority on such matters. Follow the Portfolio link from his signature and look for yourself: https://erich-boehm.squarespace.com/
I don't know about you, but for me those samples are suggesting some student barely learning the craft, rather than an experienced designer.

And, of course, that's not industrial design. He apparently cannot understand a real, tangible camera. For example, the claim that you'd have to touch the "exposed" metal bars of the moon lander device. Obviously, he's looking for random things to complain about, then complain on a forum full of experienced people - as I called it, "selling cucumbers to the gardener".

The automatic LED is more subtle; in a simplistic thinking yeah, it should work. Except that it can't. These LEDs must turn on when we want them, must stay off otherwise, and must turn off when we no longer need them. This could happen at any moment, with the camera obviously turned off (that's how we're changing lenses &cards, right?).
Just try to automate that.

OTOH I can easily find a specific button on a camera I'm familiar with. Blindfolded. It's not the same as navigating some site with the monitor turned off
04-15-2016, 10:09 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by neostyles Quote
Apple products have won just about every design award out there.
Oh, if it was design awards that you were all in a tizzy about, you should have just said so! We could have allayed your fears about Pentax/Ricoh much earlier

Here are just a few design awards Ricoh/Pentax have won in recent years, that a quick search turned up:

Ricoh Theta and Pentax 645Z named winners at Germany’s iF Design Awards 2016 | Pentax Rumors

GR digital compact camera and RICOH THETA spherical imaging device named winners at Germany?s iF Design Awards 2014. - RICOH IMAGING EUROPE S.A.S -- "GR digital compact camera and RICOH THETA spherical imaging device have been selected as winners at the internationally respected iF Design Awards 2014"

Best Camera Pentax-Q10 - T+L Design Awards 2013 | Travel + Leisure -- "Best Camera Pentax-Q10"

Good Design Australia 2013 - PENTAX MX-1 -- "Pentax MX-1 Good Design Award"

And even the K-01
Red Dot Design award for the PENTAX K-01 - Press Releases - RICOH IMAGING - European Hub Site -- "Red Dot Design award for the PENTAX K-01" (2012)


Of course, there are plenty of overall camera awards (which generally consider both form and function) that Pentax DSLRs have won over the years as well, so they must be doing SOMETHING right
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