[BigMackCam]

I mean, is this the only thing holding Pentax back? No, but it's easy to fix. If they just played to the tune of canon/nikon they would already probably be positioned to get more mainstream attention.

The thing is - and I'm no Pentax fan-boy, just a satisfied user of some of their cameras and lenses - there is *nothing* significant about my K-3 that I dislike in terms of design and ergonomics. I really mean that. I love the look of it, although that is largely unimportant. What *is* important is that - to me - it feels great to hold and use for hours on end... I find the functions and menus very easy to navigate... the main and top-panel LCDs work perfectly for me... the controls all fall to hand nicely... The shooting experience is just how I want it. None of that is down to specs, or bells and whistles - it's down to basic design. Are there things that I *personally* would change? One or two, sure, but very little when I consider the package as a whole... and I work on the basis that I'm not the only one the manufacturer has to please. I liked the K-3 so much that I bought a K-3II - still largely unused - to make sure I had a spare to grow into (in an unplanned twist, I find myself continuing to use my old K-5 which I also love, so the K-3II hasn't seen much use yet). I imagine there are many Pentax DSLR owners who feel exactly like I do, and if Ricoh was to significantly change the design of its Pentax cameras, it would risk alienating the current loyal following... The fact that the K-1 continues many of the design traits of its predecessors bears that out, and I don't think it will hold Ricoh / Pentax back one little bit.

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Last edited by BigMackCam; 04-14-2016 at 02:55 PM.

[crussellsprout]

One of the most welcome improvements going from the K20 to the D600 is the usability. The camera felt like it was designed with the user in mind.

Of course, not everyone agrees with your assessment of Pentax ergonomics/usability being inferior, in fact many of us find this to be a huge advantage to Pentax cameras. Even for your comparison of D600 (circa 2012) with K20D (circa 2008), I would highlight for example that DPReview rated the K20D an 8.5/10 for ergonomics and handling, while giving only 9/14 (or ~6.5/10) to the D600...

[RobA_Oz]

I really don't want to prolong the agony in this thread, but rational debate demands some separation of the topics under discussion, and in this case they are aesthetics (styling) and usability. The comments about Apple's iPhone aesthetics are interesting, because, while some aspects have varied over its life, the design element that has contributed to its ongoing success has been constant, and that is its minimalist form. Put simply, Apple created that aesthetic and the rest of the market followed. Even its greatest rival, Samsung, admitted that in its evidence to the US courts, when it denied copying the iPhone, saying words to the effect that the iPhone form was what a smart phone looked like.

In their own way, Canon has done a similar thing with the styling of its DSLRs, which has elements of Raymond Loewy's "streamlining" aesthetic. Nikon seems to have followed suit, more or less, but Pentaxes since the K-7 have diverged from that aesthetic. I don't quite follow the "form follows function" comment a while back, here, given that all DSLRs and quite a few mirrorless cameras have essentially the same form. However, when the K-1 appeared, with its even greater emphasis on plane surfaces and mechanical control protrusions, it's not surprising that some people saw it as attempting to fit a "retro" aesthetic, but that's just an interpretation. You could with equal justification, which isn't much, call it "steampunk". All that aside, it's possible to admire both the Canon and the Pentax aesthetic (in the days when I drove a Citroën DS, I also hankered after a Morgan, which are automotive exemplars at similar ends of the market) but it doesn't matter as long as each attracts sufficient buyers (Morgan is still in business, too).

As for usability, we could crack on forever about the differences, but suffice it to say that I've seen more people here come to Pentax because of other makers' unsuitable (to them) controls, including menu systems, than go the other way, for the same reasons. Some people might use the term "poor" but I think "unsuitable" is more accurate, because, regardless of the particular reasons why those people felt that way, the controls just didn't suit the way they like to operate.

So, Pentaxes don't follow the mainstream, and they're not a majority brand. So what?

[MarkJerling]

This place loves it's word games doesn't it?

Not at all. Many users just don't share your view.

The pentax cameras that I've used in the past while admitantly small and lacking the bulk of full frame, just didn't feel good in the hands. The grip on the K20 just didn't feel like it was designed to be ergonomic.

I've handled the K-5, the K10, the K-3 and several older Pentaxes and they have all felt very good in my hands.

You could have the best tasting dish ever but if it looks like an alien from a low budget movie, no one is going to want to order it.

The point is - I don't think it looks like an alien from a low budget movie. I like the way it looks, and I hope it will feel good in my hands too. I don't buy tools on how they "look". I buy tools based upon whether they're the best tool for the job or not, and after that, based upon some brand loyalty, usually based upon past good experiences with a particular brand. A few examples: I don't care what my Landrover looks like. I care about the 600mm wheel travel index, approach and departure angles and the fact that I can drive it though water up to windscreen wiper level. I don't buy a new drill, or waterblaster, or winch, or table saw based on how it looks. I buy cutlery and cristal glasses and furniture based upon looks and functionality. I buy art based on looks. From a designer's perspective, 'form follows function' is a pure and good approach for an appliance. Of course, with anything that is held in the hands, ergonomics is very important. But, ergonomics is not neccesarily sleek or cutting edge design.

Im not Jonathan Ives (iPhone designer afaik) but I feel like I could have designed far better looking cameras for pentax.

Let's see it then. Feel free to design a concept. I really do not want an iPhone looking (or iPhone breakable) Pentax. As noted prior, I like cameras like the Nikon Df. And, I have a long love affair with Pentax, so it's pretty hard for me not to get excited by the K-1.

[neostyles]

Of course, not everyone agrees with your assessment of Pentax ergonomics/usability being inferior, in fact many of us find this to be a huge advantage to Pentax cameras. Even for your comparison of D600 (circa 2012) with K20D (circa 2008), I would highlight for example that DPReview rated the K20D an 8.5/10 for ergonomics and handling, while giving only 9/14 (or ~6.5/10) to the D600...

That back switch for af point selection left a lot to be desired. It was just poor design. It was just so bad that I never even bothered to use it. The tactile feedback on the buttons was completely nonexistent. It felt like a cd player from the 90s.

The k1 looks quite a bit better but it just doesn't seem like it's been given it's due attention. Pentax seems to have bought into the traditionalist school of thought that would have you believe that there is something bad about making things simple and easy (The k20 had much more of a learning curve than my nikon did despite being not suited for pro work.) Many upper level cameras have touch screens which makes a world of difference for things like image review. I always used found using the left and right buttons for cycling through your images to be a bit clunky and slow (yes, i realize that nikon does things the same) and hence why I love the NX1s use of a canon style scroll wheel for shooting through images.

DPreview noted that the tilt screen mechanism has all the elegance of "two desk chairs mating" and I think this is their issue. The back of the k1 looks crowded. It's like the time honored phrase of "don't work harder, work smarter. The led illuminiation is a great touch and probably one of my favorite features of the k1, but if it's activated by a button, and said button isn't itself back illuminated, most people will just use their smart phone to illuninate the camera. They should have gone for something like pressure sensitivity or something. You know, the camera detects when there is a low ambient light and when you open the side door, it automatically lights up. We live in an age of smart devices and if Pentax wants to stay competitive it needs to realize that people expect their cameras to be smart as well.

The third command dial is a neat idea, but it involves making a compromise that I wouldn't have made : making the the top deck lcd smaller. I use my top deck lcd all the time to change settings on the fly in the middle of a shoot. Samsung does this in a smarter way, with the i function on their lenses that allows you to use the scroll wheels instead of having to clutter things up with more controls.

[monochrome]

Derivative 'design' of K-01



Credit Steve Huff Photo
K-01 - Design Masterpiece or Design Fail

All design comments and opinions on K-1 can be withheld until we know sales numbers and read reviews of the actual final product. We'll also be able to judge the product success (market acceptance of the 'design') by following price stability. Predictive argument, especially dismissive hypothesizing, is really pointless, since it is often contingent on invalid assumptions.

For instance, where is it written that Pentax wants to supplant Canon or Nikon or Sony? What if Pentax actually prefers to remain a smaller, alternative, specialty brand, catering to a specific group of users who choose its particular combination of price and features as actively preferable? If that's the case (and I think it is, for the time being) any argument that K-1 in it's current form cannot supplant D800 or A7rll is at best misplaced, and at worst actively and intentionally disruptive and disinformative.

[jatrax]

Pentax seems to have bought into the traditionalist school of thought that would have you believe that there is something bad about making things simple and easy

This is fascinating..............

[Kunzite]

@neostyles:
I'm not missing the point, because there is none. Your posts are 100% hogwash.

I know Pentax. I had/have film cameras - manual and autofocus; and DSLRs from almost every series; I had access to many other of their cameras. I've experienced the evolution of their UI. Nothing is perfect, but Pentax' ergonomics and usability is excellent.
I also know the other brands; and - for example - I find the D600 rather mediocre. It's still using that "made for 3 hands" Nikon interface, and its grip is simply wrong. And it's uglier than a K-5 or K-3 series (won't say anything about the K-1 until I see it with my own eyes), not that it matters.
Obviously, many people here have access to both Pentax and other brands (e.g. Nikon) cameras. There's a Romanian saying describing what you're doing - you're "selling cucumbers to the gardener".

[neostyles]

I mean, dont get me wrong the K1 and newer pentax offerings look worlds better than the pentax cameras that I have shot with. I am glad pentax hasn't fallen for the "bigger is better" idea. Even if I had the money I would never want a D5. 90% of the reason I chose the NX1 is that I am getting the smaller size with modern aps c low light power. But it seems like if they put a little bit more effort into things, they could get to a modern standard of usability. It's not about having more controls it's about smarter usage of few controls to keep things clean and simple. The d600s AF control is a great example. One control gives you both access to af mode and every other af option you could want. With the K1, it's two buttons, which could possibly have you taking your eye off the subject mid shoot.

The pixel shift thing isn't a first either for pentax afaik. Olympus did it with their extra lengthy named OMD EM5 mark ii and it uses and electronic shutter so it's very fast.

I'm not missing the point, because there is none. Your posts are 100% hogwash.

That's like just saying "you're wrong." Reminds me of my photo teacher in college. He would just walk by you and tell you you did it wrong without bothering tell you why.

IMO, the K-01 is one of the bet looking cameras ever. I hate to sound negative, but this is an example of how to photo design a camera. I think they might have sold 3 of them.

I think that sounds fair monochrome. I would be curious as to whether sales of the K1 are actually bigger than previous cameras. I dont think it's too much of a stretch to say that pentax would rather the person who is looking for a new camera buy a K-1 instead of a D750. The tilt screen is evidence enough that they are trying to compete.

[monochrome]

We can ignore threads, too.

[BigMackCam]

But it seems like if they put a little bit more effort into things, they could get to a modern standard of usability. It's not about having more controls it's about smarter usage of few controls to keep things clean and simple

You didn't reply to my last post, Neo... As I (and someone after me) indicated, we're happy with the way Pentax cameras operate. Is it your "modern standard of usability" they're not meeting? If so, that's fine and acknowledged. I'm not asking this to be argumentative - I really believe that the way the K-1 and its predecessors operate is because that's how the current user base likes them...

[jatrax]

look worlds better than the pentax cameras that I have shot with.

Just curious, what was the last Pentax camera you shot with?

[rawr]

I thought folks would have learnt from the 'Non-Pentax Cameras' thread that arguing with neostyles was like arguing with someone on the TV set ...

[Kunzite]

That's like just saying "you're wrong." Reminds me of my photo teacher in college. He would just walk by you and tell you you did it wrong without bothering tell you why.

IMO, the K-01 is one of the ugliest cameras ever. I hate to sound negative, but this is an example of how to not design a camera. I think they might have sold 3 of them.

Why should I bother explaining when you don't listen?

For example, I told you before that the K-01's styling was done by a designer (a real one). It's an atypical camera, though IRL it doesn't look bad at all.
I also tried to hint you that the pretty iPhone is completely un-ergonomic as a camera. The SLR design is restricted by its function, and we'd rather have it this way: those cameras are tools, first and foremost.
I also mentioned 645z's excellent grip, IMHO worlds better than any Canon/Nikon I've ever held. I find it incredible, despite its weight the camera stays in my hand as glued.

Was there any sign of you acknowledging these points?

[neostyles]

Well lets see my first pentax ever was the ist ds. Then I owned a k10, and finally a k20. They were nice for what they were I guess. Nice colors, and pretty compact. I shot pentax for almost 3 years. I might still be shooting with them if they had shown more willingness to modernize and focus on human aspect of things.

Is it your "modern standard of usability" they're not meeting?

No, at the risk of sounding egotistical, I think it's largely the photo industry's standard. Connectivity has changed the industry, making it easier than even to connect your camera to your other devices. Touch screens have made it 10x faster to pull focus, changes setting, etc. Sony and samsung even allow you to charge your cameras over usb power. So, no more switching out batteries. Just plug it in and you are ready to go. There are even some DIY ways to attach a power bank to the hot shoe for endless hours of shooting. Man power banks cost about the same (if not less) of the official batteries and will give you several times the charge. Most of the time the battery grip will suffice but it's nice that we not have that option. There is more. The sony systems have cross brand compatibility. So, you can stick a canon flash on an a6000 and it would fire fine, without any special adapters or anything. Think about this. This is huge. It almost got me to go with sony.

For example, I told you before that the K-01's styling was done by a designer (a real one). It's an atypical camera, though IRL it doesn't look bad at all.
I also tried to hint you that the pretty iPhone is completely un-ergonomic as a camera. The SLR design is restricted by its function, and we'd rather have it this way: those cameras are tools, first and foremost.
I also mentioned 645z's excellent grip, IMHO worlds better than any Canon/Nikon I've ever held. I find it incredible, despite its weight the camera stays in my hand as glued.

Was there any sign of you acknowledging these points?

Everything is done by designers, dude. Canonikon has designers, etc I dont know if you notice, but the design of the K-01 wasn't exactly a huge success. In fact, it was universally panned. The iPhone doesn't need to be ergonomic at least not in the same way an slr does. You hold a phone differently than you do a camera. I did mention this, i guess you just missed it. Form follows function, at least it should in the most basic sense. Cameras are held with one hand so they need to be designed to comfortably do so. It's design that made apple's brand more than just tech item, and one of the most recognized and sought after brands in the world. The iPhone doesn't need to have a grip like an slur does but it completes its function with form beautifully. It's simplicity at it's finest. Apple products have won just about every design award out there. Steve jobs said the user experience should come first and then the tech should come after that, not the other way around as pentax seems to be doing.

The 645 may have a great grip I won't argue with that as I've never used it.


Cameras may have been "just tools" back in the time of ansel adams where they were so big that you needed a mule to take yours around, but no one wants to pay thousands for something that looks ugly. Cameras aren't nails and chisels where we keep them in our shed. My camera is a part of me. I take it almost everywhere I go. And the "pro" looks get compliments all the time and have even landed me gigs.