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03-15-2016, 02:56 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by christiandre Quote
crop image in wildlife or birding practice, on a k1, will give the same result than a full k5IIs image ?
No différence, strictly ?
Roughly, no. And under the assumption that you crop x1.5.
Cropping in post is "digital zooming" for all intents and purposes if you create same size output.
And you "zoom in" on the "noise spots" as well.

If you own a Canon 5Ds and crop to same resulting pixelcount you'll even have worse noise.

03-15-2016, 02:57 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by slip Quote
Would the high ISO performance be better with a crop sensor lens be better then K5iis?

Thanks

Randy
Given the pixel density is similar between K5iis and K1:

If the image is cropped to APS-C size, the ISO performance will be identical or very close to each other. No FF advantage here.

If the lens is able to cover the full circle ( no crop here), the noise is still similar but due to 36mp density when you shrink the size of shot to the same taken by k5ii, you will get one stop advantage.
03-15-2016, 05:23 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by enoeske Quote
Cropping it enlarges the noise/image ratio.
It does not such thing! Unless the lens is closer or further from the sensor, which I believe it is not (otherwise focus would be fubar).
The light coming in from a crop sensor lens will be exactly the same within that same area no matter how large the surrounding sensor might be. No matter what you put behind the lens, the physics of light does not change.

The FF area will have vignetting, but the inner crop area will not be affected!
03-15-2016, 05:29 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by slip Quote
Would the high ISO performance be better with a crop sensor lens on the K1 compared to the K5iis?
Same.

03-15-2016, 06:56 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by enoeske Quote
Cropping it enlarges the noise/image ratio.
Only if you compare K1 APS-C crop with K1 full frame, at the same final print size. Comparing K1 APS-C crop to K5iis native APS-C, with about the same pixel pitch, will not exhibit that behaviour.
03-15-2016, 09:25 PM   #21
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Huh? S/N is a ratio. Both the signal count and the noise count will be less with a cropped photo.

I'm starting to think this is all BS. I want to see photos.

---------- Post added 03-15-16 at 09:33 PM ----------

A quick quiz, without checking. Which has a larger depth of field.

100mm at 200cm distance 2.8 on full frame.
100mm at 200cm distance 2.8 on apsc.
03-15-2016, 10:27 PM   #22
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so... for wildlife or birding, compared with an K5IIs, the loss of range on a K-1 can't be offset by any other advantages... ISO will be the same on a K-1 crop mode... same ISO results with a post-software crop
don't need the flippy screen, pixelshift, gps, astrotracer, or extraordinary AF... maybe the viewfinder is a real advantage... but, but...
wildlife & birds (static subjets, no BIF) are my main interest in photography, around 80-85% of my trips with my 150-450 & DA300mm... I think I will reconsider the purchase of K1, and patiently wait for the K3-II successor...
03-15-2016, 10:49 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by christiandre Quote
so... I think I will reconsider the purchase of K1, and patiently wait for the K3-II successor...
Whilst its hard at this point, just wait for a few people on this forum to use their K1 for a month or two and you'll have more to go on then all the "uniformed waffle" that exists now.

03-16-2016, 02:16 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Huh? S/N is a ratio. Both the signal count and the noise count will be less with a cropped photo.

I'm starting to think this is all BS. I want to see photos.

---------- Post added 03-15-16 at 09:33 PM ----------

A quick quiz, without checking. Which has a larger depth of field.

100mm at 200cm distance 2.8 on full frame.
100mm at 200cm distance 2.8 on apsc.
Exactly!
People keep trying to sneak in their understanding (or misunderstanding) of "equivalence" and moving the camera or changing focal length, pixel density, print size, etc...
With all things being equal, cutting that cropped square out of the middle of the larger sensor will not change a thing. Physics of light does not change simply because it is hitting a larger or smaller screen.
03-16-2016, 02:34 AM - 2 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by enoeske Quote
Cropping it enlarges the noise/image ratio.
I call "bull" on that statement. If the K1 is cropped to the same res as a lower res sensor (which is the Apsc equal of the FF crop), in post processing, how can that possibly introduce noise. It doesn't.

---------- Post added 03-16-16 at 07:35 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by christiandre Quote
"Cropping it enlarge the noise/ image ratio"
....Even with a software crop ?
Exactly, it's just a crop, no modification of the image whatsoever.

---------- Post added 03-16-16 at 07:39 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Same.
It won't be the same. If the new K-1 sensor has blistering high ISO performance, which it can be expected to have, it will be better than the K5. Same pixels, same size crop, better technical advancement.

---------- Post added 03-16-16 at 07:41 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by amoringello Quote
Exactly!
People keep trying to sneak in their understanding (or misunderstanding) of "equivalence" and moving the camera or changing focal length, pixel density, print size, etc...
With all things being equal, cutting that cropped square out of the middle of the larger sensor will not change a thing. Physics of light does not change simply because it is hitting a larger or smaller screen.
You are right, a crop is just a crop, it doesn't change a thing about the pixels, if the FF sensor is equal to the scaled up version of the Apsc sensor.

---------- Post added 03-16-16 at 07:42 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
[/COLOR]A quick quiz, without checking. Which has a larger depth of field.

100mm at 200cm distance 2.8 on full frame.
100mm at 200cm distance 2.8 on apsc.
Same DOF there, no difference.
03-16-2016, 03:26 AM   #26
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Take a large noisy picture, watch it on full screen. Crop out a portion in the middle, enlarge that portion to full screen and you will se more noise. That’s how it works.

The noise was there from the beginning but smaller, you couldn’t see it as well as you do after the crop and enlargement, the same goes for the details in the picture. Cropping doesn’t create details, but you see it better.
03-16-2016, 03:52 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
If the new K-1 sensor has blistering high ISO performance, which it can be expected to have, it will be better than the K5. Same pixels, same size crop, better technical advancement.
The K-1 uses the same sensor as a D800E, which is still listed as current in Sony's sensor department. I don't have the link that showed this but I saw it posted elsewhere. If there is any improvement in the supporting electronics, there will be a minor increase in SNR.

Given his shooting interests, the OP should do exactly as he says, wait for the K-3 upgrade. There is a reason that birders doggedly waited years for the 7D II and D500, despite a plethora of FF bodies on offer.
03-16-2016, 04:18 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Take a large noisy picture, watch it on full screen. Crop out a portion in the middle, enlarge that portion to full screen and you will se more noise. That’s how it works.

The noise was there from the beginning but smaller, you couldn’t see it as well as you do after the crop and enlargement, the same goes for the details in the picture. Cropping doesn’t create details, but you see it better.
Logical & relevant
03-16-2016, 04:32 AM - 2 Likes   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by christiandre Quote
Logical & relevant
But how on earth does this have any relevance to the topic.

If the new sensor has new tech behind it (software, chipset etc) thus making its performance better, how does taking a centre crop from an image make it "the same" as an older crop sensor of 16mp.

When Ricoh got their hands on the 44x33 sensor from Sony, they did a better job than the other two companies of getting the absolute best ISO performance from it. You can bet they did the same this time with the K1.

If I am wrong, what people are basically saying and what Ricoh is basically doing is selling us the same old tech from 5-7 years ago, rebadged and in a pretty dress and new shoes and we will be lapping it up. I doubt that.
03-16-2016, 04:49 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
But how on earth does this have any relevance to the topic.

If the new sensor has new tech behind it (software, chipset etc) thus making its performance better, how does taking a centre crop from an image make it "the same" as an older crop sensor of 16mp.
It’s the same thing. Take a FF picture, watch it on the screen, crop out the middle (to make it APS-C) enlarge and you will see more noise then you did before the crop. It will be equal to the K5, minus some probably rather small improvements in tech.


QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
When Ricoh got their hands on the 44x33 sensor from Sony, they did a better job than the other two companies of getting the absolute best ISO performance from it. You can bet they did the same this time with the K1.

If I am wrong, what people are basically saying and what Ricoh is basically doing is selling us the same old tech from 5-7 years ago, rebadged and in a pretty dress and new shoes and we will be lapping it up. I doubt that.
No they are selling a sensor that is twice the size of an APS-C sensor, that in its own will improve the picture quality. But if you are only going to use half of it than you are throwing away the advantage. (Again, minus some probably rather small improvements in tech.)
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