New glass - old glass. Which lenses should Pentax revisit?

**clackers** · 06-30-2017, 03:41 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

It is rare that a company makes huge improvements in a new lens all of a sudden.

Well, with no prior digital FF experience, Masakazu Saori's little design team at their own unhurried pace produced the 150-450 and 70-200 DFAs seemingly out of nowhere - much harder tasks than some MF 28mm f2 prime.

These are very big, industry-standard lenses rather than the little Limiteds we all know and love. Saori did the DA21 and DA70, for instance.

Look, there's nothing Zeiss do that other companies couldn't if they decided to compete in the high end market.

Cosina already manufacture Zeiss's lenses for them, so production and QA are not a problem. Sigma has recently made a pitch for the premium market and their Art series designs are superb.

If you still shot on Nikon, it would be more pragmatic to shoot the acclaimed AF 50mm Art on it than buy the MF 50mm f1.4 Otis.

Last edited by clackers; 06-30-2017 at 05:21 PM.

Kunzite · 07-01-2017, 03:27 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

I don't expect that Pentax has the lens R&D budget or elite designers that Zeiss/Nikon/Tamron/Canon have.

That is an interesting assumption - the assumption that Pentax/Ricoh Imaging's optical engineers are somehow inferior to those working for Zeiss/Nikon/Tamron/Canon. Especially since one elite designer now working for Tamron previously worked for Pentax. Maybe he leveled up when switching companies?

Pentax must be worse because it's Pentax.

**niceshot** · 07-01-2017, 05:29 PM

I dont think Fenwoodian is wrong here, as Pentax seems to subcontract most of their Lens to Tamron or Tokina.

**clackers** · 07-01-2017, 05:39 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by niceshot

I dont think Fenwoodian is wrong here, as Pentax seems to subcontract most of their Lens to Tamron or Tokina.

Well, that's not true.

Please show us your list of these lenses as evidence.

**niceshot** · 07-01-2017, 05:45 PM - **1 Like**

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/107 Read this Thread about Jun Hirikawa, as he was the Last true Lens designer worth talking about for Pentax. And He now works for Tamron

**clackers** · 07-01-2017, 06:47 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by niceshot

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/107 Read this Thread about Jun Hirikawa, as he was the Last true Lens designer worth talking about for Pentax. And He now works for Tamron

Your link doesn't work.

What rubbish.

Hirakawa did the FA*85, DA*55, FA*24, 10-17 Fisheye and FA77, but all the other great lenses in the lineup were designed by others, including the 150-450 and 70-200 modern lenses we're talking about. The new 28-105 from Pentax is much better than the one he designed years ago, so I would expect the new DFA 50mm and 85mm primes to exceed his too.

Saori's own credits include the classy kit lens upgrade DA16-45, the beloved DA18-135 WR, star rated glass in the DA*50-135, the Q system's Q6 zoom, and rare in Pentax land because most cameras have IBIS, the 90mm DFA f2.8 Macro zoom for the 645Z, with SR built into it.

So where are all these Tokinas and Tamrons you say make up most of our lenses?

**niceshot** · 07-01-2017, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Your link doesn't work.

What rubbish.

Hirakawa did the FA*85, DA*55, FA*24, 10-17 Fisheye and FA77, but all the other great lenses in the lineup were designed by others, including the 150-450 and 70-200 modern lenses we're talking about. The new 28-105 from Pentax is much better than the one he designed years ago, so I would expect the new DFA 50mm and 85mm primes to exceed his too.

Saori's own credits include the classy kit lens upgrade DA16-45, the beloved DA18-135 WR, star rated glass in the DA*50-135, the Q system's Q6 zoom, and rare in Pentax land because most cameras have IBIS, the 90mm DFA f2.8 Macro zoom for the 645Z, with SR built into it.

So where are all these Tokinas and Tamrons you say make up most of our lenses?

And you those in the class of Ziess Lens?

**clackers** · 07-01-2017, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by niceshot

And ...

Don't try to change the topic, Niceshot.

I repeat ..."So where are all these Tokinas and Tamrons you say make up most of our lenses?"

You can't be taken seriously in these matters unless you can back your claim.

biz-engineer · 07-02-2017, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

Heavy or light, manual focus or auto focus - are not the issues I'm bringing up. My point is two-fold: 1. "Good optical design is good optical design". Good optical design requires R&D resources and elite staff regardless of the lens' size or type of focus. I don't expect that Pentax has the lens R&D budget or elite designers that Zeiss/Nikon/Tamron/Canon have. 2. Lens improvements have historically been slow and incremental over time. It is rare that a company makes huge improvements in a new lens all of a sudden. Pentax has a long way to go with their lenses to be considered among the elite. That does not happen overnight, especially with only one or two new lenses being released every year or two.

There are a lot of assumptions here. One of the assumptions you make is that the quality of a lens depends 100% of skills of the lens designer. That could be otherwise. It could be that the quality of the lens greatly depends on the glass material employed for the lens elements as there are many grades of glass having a wide range of cost. It could also be that lenses aren't only designed for DSLR but for many different application and that C.A.D tools (Computer Aided Design) are now used to simulate lens parameters in order to optimize lens design without having to go through multiple iterations of prototyping. It could also be that the optical design artists of Zeiss of the 1960s are now retired and it could be that anyone can hire lens designers educated with the latest optical tech. So it might well be possible that camera lens design may not be such a differentiation, guess why Tamron and Sigma are now able to make lenses that compete head to head with Canon and Nikon.

Kunzite · 07-02-2017, 05:45 AM - **1 Like**

niceshot, I would appreciate if you'd stop making up "alternative facts". Same for your friend, Fenwoodian.
What you're doing is called FUD - you're trying to make people believe Pentax (Ricoh Imaging) is not capable of making the D FA* primes which are expected - the first by the end of this fiscal year. At least do your job completely, and tell us which is the brand we're supposed to jump to, in despair? Sony?

**pres589** · 07-02-2017, 06:57 AM - **1 Like**

Can we get this thread back on track? I'll start by saying Pentax needs to bring back the Super-Wide II AF from Sigma. It's the truth, you cannot deny it!

**jatrax** · 07-02-2017, 07:07 AM - **1 Like**

The use of computer design and programs that can run through many parameters to test without a prototype has changed many industries, not only lens design. Some might say it has taken the 'art' out of many things and replaced it with a more precise, more mathematical, yet sterile product. No one seems to argue that the FA Limiteds are wonderful lenses yet they consistently lose to other designs when tested mathematically. It is the 'art' or 'pixie dust' that makes them wonderful, not the computer program.

An example from a completely different industry might be worth examining. Back in the day fine wine (or even good wine) was an art. Wine makers with the skills to produce a great vintage were heavily recruited and considered critical to any winery. But things have changed, with the addition of computer programs and precise testing. These days, anyone with the equipment and a little skill can make award winning wine. Not that it is easy, you still need to do the work and be precise in your steps and have good grapes to start with. But if you follow the proven formula, do your testing and are diligent in following through you will get good or even great wine. Will it have the 'pixie dust' so to speak of fine wines of old? Unlikely. But it will be consistently 'good' though perhaps never as good to the taste as the rare vintage which sometimes seemed as much luck as art. But in testing it will most likely actually show as better than a vintage wine with 'pixie dust' because it was created with those tests in mind to meet the criteria of the tests, not the palate of the master vintner.

**pres589** · 07-02-2017, 07:16 AM - **2 Likes**

I think this horse has been beaten to death already, but I'll repeat it anyway; I think a lot of pixie dust gets lost when increased "correction" is a design priority in a lens. Computer tools help get correction into the design & brick wall scoring helps sell it to consumers.

Anyone know of a good k-mount 28mm f2.8 of f3.x Tessar?

**niceshot** · 07-02-2017, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

niceshot, I would appreciate if you'd stop making up "alternative facts". Same for your friend, Fenwoodian.
What you're doing is called FUD - you're trying to make people believe Pentax (Ricoh Imaging) is not capable of making the D FA* primes which are expected - the first by the end of this fiscal year. At least do your job completely, and tell us which is the brand we're supposed to jump to, in despair? Sony?

Nice attack on me, do me a favor refrain from talking to me.

Kunzite · 07-02-2017, 07:33 AM - **1 Like**

I won't. You're "speaking" on a public forum, and you're responsible for the claims you're making. For example:
- falsely claiming that "Pentax seems to subcontract most of their Lens to Tamron or Tokina." There are AFAIK 3 Tamrons-made and 1 Tokina-designed lens.
- when corrected, changing the subject by claiming that "Jun Hirikawa, as he was the Last true Lens designer worth talking about for Pentax" (at least write his name correctly!)
and after being corrected about that, trying to change subjects again.

If we don't speak up, "alternative news" would overwrite reality.

07-01-2017, 06:47 PM - 1 Like	#156
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by niceshot https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/107 Read this Thread about Jun Hirikawa, as he was the Last true Lens designer worth talking about for Pentax. And He now works for Tamron Your link doesn't work. What rubbish. Hirakawa did the FA85, DA55, FA24, 10-17 Fisheye and FA77, but all the other great lenses in the lineup were designed by others, including the 150-450 and 70-200 modern lenses we're talking about. The new 28-105 from Pentax is much better than the one he designed years ago, so I would expect the new DFA 50mm and 85mm primes to exceed his too. Saori's own credits include the classy kit lens upgrade DA16-45, the beloved DA18-135 WR, star rated glass in the DA50-135, the Q system's Q6 zoom, and rare in Pentax land because most cameras have IBIS, the 90mm DFA f2.8 Macro zoom for the 645Z, with SR built into it. So where are all these Tokinas and Tamrons you say make up most of our lenses? Last edited by clackers; 07-01-2017 at 06:53 PM.

07-01-2017, 07:26 PM	#158
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by niceshot And ... Don't try to change the topic, Niceshot. I repeat ..."So where are all these Tokinas and Tamrons you say make up most of our lenses?" You can't be taken seriously in these matters unless you can back your claim. Last edited by clackers; 07-01-2017 at 07:32 PM.

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06-30-2017, 03:41 PM - 2 Likes	#151
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by Fenwoodian It is rare that a company makes huge improvements in a new lens all of a sudden. Well, with no prior digital FF experience, Masakazu Saori's little design team at their own unhurried pace produced the 150-450 and 70-200 DFAs seemingly out of nowhere - much harder tasks than some MF 28mm f2 prime. These are very big, industry-standard lenses rather than the little Limiteds we all know and love. Saori did the DA21 and DA70, for instance. Look, there's nothing Zeiss do that other companies couldn't if they decided to compete in the high end market. Cosina already manufacture Zeiss's lenses for them, so production and QA are not a problem. Sigma has recently made a pitch for the premium market and their Art series designs are superb. If you still shot on Nikon, it would be more pragmatic to shoot the acclaimed AF 50mm Art on it than buy the MF 50mm f1.4 Otis. Last edited by clackers; 06-30-2017 at 05:21 PM.

07-01-2017, 03:27 PM - 1 Like	#152
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Fenwoodian I don't expect that Pentax has the lens R&D budget or elite designers that Zeiss/Nikon/Tamron/Canon have. That is an interesting assumption - the assumption that Pentax/Ricoh Imaging's optical engineers are somehow inferior to those working for Zeiss/Nikon/Tamron/Canon. Especially since one elite designer now working for Tamron previously worked for Pentax. Maybe he leveled up when switching companies? Pentax must be worse because it's Pentax.

07-01-2017, 05:29 PM	#153
niceshot Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,564	I dont think Fenwoodian is wrong here, as Pentax seems to subcontract most of their Lens to Tamron or Tokina.

07-01-2017, 05:39 PM - 1 Like	#154
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by niceshot I dont think Fenwoodian is wrong here, as Pentax seems to subcontract most of their Lens to Tamron or Tokina. Well, that's not true. Please show us your list of these lenses as evidence.

07-01-2017, 05:45 PM - 1 Like	#155
niceshot Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,564	https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/107 Read this Thread about Jun Hirikawa, as he was the Last true Lens designer worth talking about for Pentax. And He now works for Tamron

07-01-2017, 07:02 PM	#157
niceshot Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,564	Originally posted by clackers Your link doesn't work. What rubbish. Hirakawa did the FA85, DA55, FA24, 10-17 Fisheye and FA77, but all the other great lenses in the lineup were designed by others, including the 150-450 and 70-200 modern lenses we're talking about. The new 28-105 from Pentax is much better than the one he designed years ago, so I would expect the new DFA 50mm and 85mm primes to exceed his too. Saori's own credits include the classy kit lens upgrade DA16-45, the beloved DA18-135 WR, star rated glass in the DA50-135, the Q system's Q6 zoom, and rare in Pentax land because most cameras have IBIS, the 90mm DFA f2.8 Macro zoom for the 645Z, with SR built into it. So where are all these Tokinas and Tamrons you say make up most of our lenses? And you those in the class of Ziess Lens?

07-02-2017, 05:28 AM	#159
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by Fenwoodian Heavy or light, manual focus or auto focus - are not the issues I'm bringing up. My point is two-fold: 1. "Good optical design is good optical design". Good optical design requires R&D resources and elite staff regardless of the lens' size or type of focus. I don't expect that Pentax has the lens R&D budget or elite designers that Zeiss/Nikon/Tamron/Canon have. 2. Lens improvements have historically been slow and incremental over time. It is rare that a company makes huge improvements in a new lens all of a sudden. Pentax has a long way to go with their lenses to be considered among the elite. That does not happen overnight, especially with only one or two new lenses being released every year or two. There are a lot of assumptions here. One of the assumptions you make is that the quality of a lens depends 100% of skills of the lens designer. That could be otherwise. It could be that the quality of the lens greatly depends on the glass material employed for the lens elements as there are many grades of glass having a wide range of cost. It could also be that lenses aren't only designed for DSLR but for many different application and that C.A.D tools (Computer Aided Design) are now used to simulate lens parameters in order to optimize lens design without having to go through multiple iterations of prototyping. It could also be that the optical design artists of Zeiss of the 1960s are now retired and it could be that anyone can hire lens designers educated with the latest optical tech. So it might well be possible that camera lens design may not be such a differentiation, guess why Tamron and Sigma are now able to make lenses that compete head to head with Canon and Nikon.

07-02-2017, 05:45 AM - 1 Like	#160
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	niceshot, I would appreciate if you'd stop making up "alternative facts". Same for your friend, Fenwoodian. What you're doing is called FUD - you're trying to make people believe Pentax (Ricoh Imaging) is not capable of making the D FA* primes which are expected - the first by the end of this fiscal year. At least do your job completely, and tell us which is the brand we're supposed to jump to, in despair? Sony?

07-02-2017, 06:57 AM - 1 Like	#161
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,529	Can we get this thread back on track? I'll start by saying Pentax needs to bring back the Super-Wide II AF from Sigma. It's the truth, you cannot deny it!

07-02-2017, 07:07 AM - 1 Like	#162
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	The use of computer design and programs that can run through many parameters to test without a prototype has changed many industries, not only lens design. Some might say it has taken the 'art' out of many things and replaced it with a more precise, more mathematical, yet sterile product. No one seems to argue that the FA Limiteds are wonderful lenses yet they consistently lose to other designs when tested mathematically. It is the 'art' or 'pixie dust' that makes them wonderful, not the computer program. An example from a completely different industry might be worth examining. Back in the day fine wine (or even good wine) was an art. Wine makers with the skills to produce a great vintage were heavily recruited and considered critical to any winery. But things have changed, with the addition of computer programs and precise testing. These days, anyone with the equipment and a little skill can make award winning wine. Not that it is easy, you still need to do the work and be precise in your steps and have good grapes to start with. But if you follow the proven formula, do your testing and are diligent in following through you will get good or even great wine. Will it have the 'pixie dust' so to speak of fine wines of old? Unlikely. But it will be consistently 'good' though perhaps never as good to the taste as the rare vintage which sometimes seemed as much luck as art. But in testing it will most likely actually show as better than a vintage wine with 'pixie dust' because it was created with those tests in mind to meet the criteria of the tests, not the palate of the master vintner.

07-02-2017, 07:16 AM - 2 Likes	#163
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,529	I think this horse has been beaten to death already, but I'll repeat it anyway; I think a lot of pixie dust gets lost when increased "correction" is a design priority in a lens. Computer tools help get correction into the design & brick wall scoring helps sell it to consumers. Anyone know of a good k-mount 28mm f2.8 of f3.x Tessar?

07-02-2017, 07:23 AM	#164
niceshot Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,564	Originally posted by Kunzite niceshot, I would appreciate if you'd stop making up "alternative facts". Same for your friend, Fenwoodian. What you're doing is called FUD - you're trying to make people believe Pentax (Ricoh Imaging) is not capable of making the D FA* primes which are expected - the first by the end of this fiscal year. At least do your job completely, and tell us which is the brand we're supposed to jump to, in despair? Sony? Nice attack on me, do me a favor refrain from talking to me.

07-02-2017, 07:33 AM - 1 Like	#165
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I won't. You're "speaking" on a public forum, and you're responsible for the claims you're making. For example: - falsely claiming that "Pentax seems to subcontract most of their Lens to Tamron or Tokina." There are AFAIK 3 Tamrons-made and 1 Tokina-designed lens. - when corrected, changing the subject by claiming that "Jun Hirikawa, as he was the Last true Lens designer worth talking about for Pentax" (at least write his name correctly!) and after being corrected about that, trying to change subjects again. If we don't speak up, "alternative news" would overwrite reality.