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04-11-2016, 07:03 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
No it's a good day when I can merely disagree with you and you get your knickers all in a twist! :P

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04-11-2016, 07:08 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If more dynamic range means bigger wells on DxO, how does a 16 MP K-5 show a DxO R mark of 14.1 MP while a Canon 6D scores 12.1? And a Canon 5D MarkIII scores 11.7.
Canon sensors have traditionally had poor dynamic range compared to Sony. I think this swamps the other part of the comparison. Comparing these vs. their own sensors with smaller pixels might reveal something - then again the comparison needs to be made across the same generations of sensors if possible.
04-11-2016, 07:37 AM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
OK, let me clarify. What I was trying to say, in a muddled way, was that a 24 MP sensor like the one in the Sony might have been a preferable choice for the K-1...
I tend to agree, though it would not have garnered points in the marketplace or with reviewers. It is my hope that Pentax will release a K-1b (light version) with a 24 Mpixel sensor and a few less features.


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04-11-2016, 07:45 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I tend to agree, though it would not have garnered points in the marketplace or with reviewers. It is my hope that Pentax will release a K-1b (light version) with a 24 Mpixel sensor and a few less features.


Steve
And I'd like a K-1b with the 16mm sensitive sensor from the D4s. Trouble is, after you do the basic camera, what niche do you fill next? I bet the K-1 has a 24 MP jpeg option.

04-11-2016, 07:56 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
It is my hope that Pentax will release a K-1b (light version) with a 24 Mpixel sensor and a few less features.
+1. A Pentax D750 would be nice.
Drop the weight, drop a few of the K-1 bells and whistles, drop the price.
04-11-2016, 08:20 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And I'd like a K-1b with the 16mm sensitive sensor from the D4s. Trouble is, after you do the basic camera, what niche do you fill next? I bet the K-1 has a 24 MP jpeg option.
Good luck on the 16mm sensor. I personally will probably hold out for built-in espresso or at least K-cup support.


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04-11-2016, 09:06 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Good luck on the 16mm sensor. I personally will probably hold out for built-in espresso or at least K-cup support.


Steve
Talking a 24 MP sensor is just as bizarre. You gain about 200 lw/ph, going from about 2700 lw/ph to 2900 lw/ph, so well less than a 5% increase, in resolution, so you've left behind everyone who wants a resolution boost. There are an awful lot of us for whom the only benefit to a larger sensor is added resolution. A 24 MP ff, loses the full 50% magnification and resolution but on the subject created by the compact sensor. At least the 36 MP K-1 is the equivalent of a K-5 in crop. Good enough for most circumstances. The loss in resolution on subject is limited to about 20%.

For a landscape photographer, the loss in resolution going to 24 MP would be disturbing. For a wildlife photographer, you're probably better off with APS-c.
04-11-2016, 09:50 AM   #53
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It is funny how we fuss about stuff that we have no control over and which causes little if any problems for us.

Anyway with my older digital cameras including the youngest Pentax K-01 I have looked at the noise on gross underexposure.
https://app.box.com/s/9fj2zj4pb622ke9z4na12nxxiqt4j7ea

What becomes noticable is that the most obvious and objectionable noise is not random.
It is apparent as fixed striations either horizontally or vertically.
This is known as fixed pattern noise (FPN)
Whether it is from the sensor itelf, or from the row/column amplifiers, I don't know, but suspect the latter.

On the above K-01 image, I held the camera in portrait to take an extra exposure to prove the noise was not on the white painted wall.
About seven horizontal striations are apparent. To take out the monitor, shrink the window a bit then move the image.

The noise being of FPN type, takes out the adc quantization noise and sensor well photon shot noise that most of the talking heads go on about.
I think those are more topical because thay are easy to put quantitave values to and in public domain, whereas fpn is more proprietary.

Here is one from the Olympus E_PL1, an older and smaller camera which has more apparent FPN, this time both horizontal vertical FPNs are apparent.
https://app.box.com/s/yfm80we95zz8yecks87dp4glrma0zmzk

04-11-2016, 10:13 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
For a landscape photographer, the loss in resolution going to 24 MP would be disturbing.
I dunno...I am pretty happy (in a disturbed way) with 24 Mpickles per 3:2 frame right now for my landscape work, but would like those pickles scattered over a little more real estate at capture time. Yes, crop mode pixel count would be in the K10D range and yes, that would restrict maximum print size to 16x20 or less for high quality prints using DA series glass, but sometimes sacrifices (such as sticking a K-S2 in the bag for crop sensor shooting or simply leaving the DA glass at home) must be made.


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04-11-2016, 10:16 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I dunno...I am pretty happy (in a disturbed way) with 24 Mpickles per 3:2 frame right now for my landscape work, but would like those pickles scattered over a little more real estate at capture time. Yes, crop mode pixel count would be in the K10D range and yes, that would restrict maximum print size to 16x20 or less for high quality prints using DA series glass, but sometimes sacrifices (such as sticking a K-S2 in the bag for crop sensor shooting or simply leaving the DA glass at home) must be made.


Steve
But you didn't answer the big question, why not just buy a K-3?

QuoteQuote:
Anyway with my older digital cameras including the youngest Pentax K-01 I have looked at the noise on gross underexposure.
The solution to this is don't grossly underexpose your work. Check the darn histogram. Proper exposure is always necessary, it's not an option for good photos. You run into all kinds of issue grossly underexposing with any camera.
04-11-2016, 11:38 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
But you didn't answer the big question, why not just buy a K-3?
Maybe because I already own one


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04-11-2016, 11:53 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Maybe because I already own one


Steve
Well then, why not buy a K-3II?
Smarty pants.
04-11-2016, 11:54 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Talking a 24 MP sensor is just as bizarre. You gain about 200 lw/ph, going from about 2700 lw/ph to 2900 lw/ph, so well less than a 5% increase, in resolution, so you've left behind everyone who wants a resolution boost. There are an awful lot of us for whom the only benefit to a larger sensor is added resolution.
Perhaps I am guilty of looking at this from the limited perspective of my own personal needs, and not giving enough weight to others. It's an easy trap to fall into.

I also find the K-1, as presented, kind of daunting. Even though it's a lot of camera for the money, and undoubtedly a bargain by FF DSLR standards, it's also the most expensive camera body I've ever seriously contemplated getting. So perhaps it's "overkill" for my needs, but at the same time it's a full-frame Pentax, and I can't help wanting it.
04-11-2016, 02:09 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
Perhaps I am guilty of looking at this from the limited perspective of my own personal needs, and not giving enough weight to others. It's an easy trap to fall into.

I also find the K-1, as presented, kind of daunting. Even though it's a lot of camera for the money, and undoubtedly a bargain by FF DSLR standards, it's also the most expensive camera body I've ever seriously contemplated getting. So perhaps it's "overkill" for my needs, but at the same time it's a full-frame Pentax, and I can't help wanting it.
The overkill things is probably pretty much the same for most of it. Seriously, I think finding clients to buy 60 inch prints would be really hard for me, they would certainly be too big for my house. And I doubt, I ever need more than 40" prints for my house 30x20" is just fine to date. So, do I really need 36 MP? No, but if it's there, for $600 more than 24 MP I might go for it. A 24 Mp camera for say $1400? I'll just stick with my K-3, thanks but no thanks.
04-11-2016, 02:57 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The solution to this is don't grossly underexpose your work. Check the darn histogram. Proper exposure is always necessary, it's not an option for good photos. You run into all kinds of issue grossly underexposing with any camera.
Exactly.
My first point was, as I said, "It is funny how we fuss about stuff.." But maybe you articulated it better.

My second point was that if fixed pattern noise (fpn) dominates all of my ( admittedly older) digital cameras, why would I fuss about dynamic range issue generally?

And I would add another question:
If most users of these cameras users are content with 24 bit monitors (jpg style etc) , and post stuff to be looked at from internet browser,
then was not the dynamic range OK from a 2004 digital camera?
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