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05-28-2016, 02:11 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
My Nikon sb-26 has a repeating flash mode, you can set the number of flashes per second, power and so on. Just tried it with the K-1 in PS mode. The flash mode works and generates a number of flashes, I set it to 5 flashes at 10hz which means 5 flashes spaced over 1/2 second. Triggered manually it worked but unfortunately the K-1 refuses to trigger the flash when in PS mode.
Well that's simple then...you just need to buy a second K-1, leave it out of PS mode, and have it trigger the flashes while the other K-1 takes the pictures!

05-28-2016, 02:31 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I may be mistaken, but flash triggering is still mechanical in Pentax cameras. I expect for this dream to come true, there will be quite a lot of redesigning.
QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Pardon my ignorance, but what does that mean?
Cameras with fully mechanical shutters have a set of contact points that "make" the flash circuit as part of the shutter action. Cameras with electronic shutters may use electronic or mechanical sync timing. I had assumed that electronic shutter Pentax SLRs from the M series forward feature electronic sync timing, but perhaps I am wrong.


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05-28-2016, 02:50 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Well that's simple then...you just need to buy a second K-1, leave it out of PS mode, and have it trigger the flashes while the other K-1 takes the pictures!
Might be easier to just trip the flash by hand. But regardless not much use to me as I have enough continuous lighting that the SB-26 by itself is not going to make much difference. I just wanted to see if it work.
Seems to me this is a case of Pentax preventing an action that for many will cause poor results. No problem with that, but the option to trigger flash in PS mode would allow those with the gear and knowledge to make it work to try.
05-28-2016, 08:15 PM   #34
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Just to confirm the K-1 will not fire a Cactus RF 60 multi mode when in PS.

05-29-2016, 07:13 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Pardon my ignorance, but what does that mean?
Again, I would be happy to be wrong, but I think Pentax flash triggering is done by a mechanical contact when the shutter opens. What this tells me, in reference to this discussion, is that to enable pixel shift with flash, the shutter would have to cycle four times.
05-29-2016, 07:42 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Again, I would be happy to be wrong, but I think Pentax flash triggering is done by a mechanical contact when the shutter opens. What this tells me, in reference to this discussion, is that to enable pixel shift with flash, the shutter would have to cycle four times.
I never would have imagined the flash would be mechanically triggered, but I suppose that's one way to make sure that the flash and shutter are perfectly timed. I can understand why it would have been that way in the past on older cameras, but it seems like they should have modernized it at some point in the digital age...especially if it means that PS cannot be used with strobes, as the Olympus implementation can.
05-29-2016, 08:24 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by wizofoz Quote
Just to confirm the K-1 will not fire a Cactus RF 60 multi mode when in PS.
Do you have two Cactus V6 as well?

If so, you could use the "starter pistol" method to trigger the RF60 in multi mode (or any other flash on a V6) in sync with the K-1 in PS mode.
05-29-2016, 10:04 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by wizofoz Quote
Just to confirm the K-1 will not fire a Cactus RF 60 multi mode when in PS.
It is not supposed to fire ANY flash in PS.


Steve

05-29-2016, 10:42 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
I never would have imagined the flash would be mechanically triggered
Flash sync is handled by the shutter. For vertical run metal shutters both mechanical and electronic aspects are essentially off-the-shelf from makers such as Copal and Seiko. It has been that way for vertical metal shutters since forever. Whether the sync is triggered by travel of the leading curtain or by some sort of lock sequence using both leading and trailing curtain travel or is purely electronically timed depends on the vendor and design goals. The current Pentax behavior may be accounted for using either of the last two options.

FWIW, full mechanical sync is still used on several current model film cameras. Examples include Voigtlander R3m, Nikon FM-10, and Leica MP/M-A bodies.


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05-29-2016, 11:02 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
I never would have imagined the flash would be mechanically triggered, but I suppose that's one way to make sure that the flash and shutter are perfectly timed. I can understand why it would have been that way in the past on older cameras, but it seems like they should have modernized it at some point in the digital age...especially if it means that PS cannot be used with strobes, as the Olympus implementation can.
Electronic triggering of the flash is significantly more accurate than any mechanical system could ever dream of. Consider the old-fashioned points in a car's ignition system compared to modern fully electronic ignition systems.

The mechanical bounce of the contacts and the inertia of the mechanical moving parts make mechanical systems unlikely to achieve timing accuracy better than 5 milliseconds. Five nanoseconds timing accuracy is easily achievable in an electronic system.
05-29-2016, 11:44 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by doodlebug Quote
Electronic triggering of the flash is significantly more accurate than any mechanical system could ever dream of. Consider the old-fashioned points in a car's ignition system compared to modern fully electronic ignition systems.

The mechanical bounce of the contacts and the inertia of the mechanical moving parts make mechanical systems unlikely to achieve timing accuracy better than 5 milliseconds. Five nanoseconds timing accuracy is easily achievable in an electronic system.
I'm not sure why this really matters to the discussion? Is this a deflection?
05-29-2016, 12:05 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by doodlebug Quote
The mechanical bounce of the contacts and the inertia of the mechanical moving parts make mechanical systems unlikely to achieve timing accuracy better than 5 milliseconds.
Glad you made that point, because it is the physical location of both leading and trailing curtains that is critical for sync timing. X-sync accuracy is always in reference to the leading curtain clearing the image frame. There is a strong case for determining that event in real time rather than an off-set from the "start curtain travel" event. Whether this is done using contact points, feelers, reed switch, inductive pickup, or optical sensor makes little difference.


Steve

(...ignition and injection timing on my car's engine are coordinated from an inductive pickup on the cam shaft...)

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-29-2016 at 12:15 PM.
05-29-2016, 12:05 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I'm not sure why this really matters to the discussion? Is this a deflection?
Rat hole...

...unless someone is trying to make a case that flash in the sequence is something that "should be easily addressed with a firmware update"...even then, probably still a rat hole.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-29-2016 at 12:11 PM.
05-30-2016, 01:53 AM   #44
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Hasselblad has a user adjustable delay between shots on its multishot cameras. The point is to allow studio strobes time to recycle between the four shots (on a four shot setting similar to the K1). I assume that with the K1, Pentax would have to do two things: add a delay for recycling and resetting the shutter, and also add an instruction to fire the flash other than by pushing the shutter button.

Last edited by qdfb; 05-30-2016 at 04:29 AM.
06-01-2016, 05:26 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by qdfb Quote
Hasselblad has a user adjustable delay between shots on its multishot cameras.
Indeed they do, which would be a usable workaround under studio conditions for the current situation we are in with PS.
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