Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-17-2016, 03:51 AM - 1 Like   #151
Pentaxian
aurele's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Paris, France
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,908
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Why?

I'm struggling to identify a good reason for a Pentax FF camera with no more than 24 MP, and (from the statement "beefed-up K3II") more of an action camera.

I know that the top-tier Canikons fit that description, but that puzzles me too. Surely it will be easier for Pentax to (say) have a high frame rate with an APS-C camera than with an FF camera? It would have a smaller and lighter mirror and shutter. And I would have thought that fast-behaving APS-C lenses are easier to develop than fast-behaving FF lenses.

(I am aware that an FF camera gives a more useful field of view at the 150mm end of the 150-450mm lens, and at the 70mm end of the 70-200mm lens. That is one of the things I like about the K-1. But I can't see why that would encourage Ricoh to go that way).

Is there are good reason why, if Ricoh wants to develop and launch a 20-24 MP camera that is "beefed-up", they shouldn't do this in an APS-C camera? For example, a future APS-C flagship?
People are often not really aware of the very numerous patents Canon owns about the shutter mechanism.

Having a blazing fast 10 or 12 FPS requires a very very very expensive shutter mechanism, compared to the 5-7 FPS ones. It requires a lot of precision and durability to endure the never endings accelerations and slow / brakes of the mirror.

It is cheaper and way easier to create a very fast APS-C shutter, compared to FF shutter. And i think legal problems related to patents don't help either.

The only good reason people think Ricoh would need to developpe a 24 megapickles FF, is just because people want a FF without poney-ing for it. They want the succes without the hassle, the thin body without the sweat. Story of mankind somehow

08-17-2016, 03:57 AM - 1 Like   #152
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Indiana
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 14,967
I just think that Pentax is really far away from being able to create a true "sports" camera. Sticking a slightly lower megapixel sensor in a K-1 body would allow for a little faster frame rate with a better buffer -- I suppose probably about where the K3 is. But it wouldn't make the K-1 a sports camera.

Truthfully, such a camera would sell small enough volume that it probably wouldn't really be worth Pentax's while. The biggest thing is that Pentax doesn't currently have a lot of "sports" optics -- really long lenses with fast apertures. Even if they released a D5 clone, the sports folks wouldn't come because of the lack of 300mm f2.8 and other lenses that they want. And the price would be too rich for most Pentaxians -- they would all gravitate to the K-1.
08-17-2016, 04:51 AM   #153
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,116
I also feel 18-24 mp is ideal for practical use. I use both now: 18 mp from my Leica M9 and 24 mp Sony A7. The K-5 files still have fine quality, but I don't like using dSLR viewfinders. If I get another camera it will likely be one of Leica's 24 mp offerings - probably the M-D.
08-17-2016, 04:59 AM - 1 Like   #154
Pentaxian
Barry Pearson's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Stockport
Posts: 870
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think that Pentax is really far away from being able to create a true "sports" camera. Sticking a slightly lower megapixel sensor in a K-1 body would allow for a little faster frame rate with a better buffer -- I suppose probably about where the K3 is. But it wouldn't make the K-1 a sports camera.
I suspect it would struggle to reach 8.3 fps just as a result of the smaller sensor, because it would still be handicapped by a larger mirror and shutter.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Truthfully, such a camera would sell small enough volume that it probably wouldn't really be worth Pentax's while. The biggest thing is that Pentax doesn't currently have a lot of "sports" optics -- really long lenses with fast apertures. Even if they released a D5 clone, the sports folks wouldn't come because of the lack of 300mm f2.8 and other lenses that they want. And the price would be too rich for most Pentaxians -- they would all gravitate to the K-1.
You make a very important point there. I've been outgunned by people with top-tier Canikon action cameras, and they always appear to have lenses to match. At a price to match!

Are the people who are "demanding" that Ricoh launches a sports-oriented FF camera, (or even APS-C camera), prepared to buy the expensive lenses needed to take full advantage of such a camera?

(I actually pre-ordered the D FA 150-450mm and 70-200mm lenses for action photography on K-3-series cameras before I had decide to get a K-1. So my answer may be "yes"! But if were to use a 20-24 MP sensor, I think I would want it APS-C size, to avoid anti-aliasing problems).

08-17-2016, 06:48 AM   #155
mee
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,258
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
I suspect it would struggle to reach 8.3 fps just as a result of the smaller sensor, because it would still be handicapped by a larger mirror and shutter.



You make a very important point there. I've been outgunned by people with top-tier Canikon action cameras, and they always appear to have lenses to match. At a price to match!

Are the people who are "demanding" that Ricoh launches a sports-oriented FF camera, (or even APS-C camera), prepared to buy the expensive lenses needed to take full advantage of such a camera?

(I actually pre-ordered the D FA 150-450mm and 70-200mm lenses for action photography on K-3-series cameras before I had decide to get a K-1. So my answer may be "yes"! But if were to use a 20-24 MP sensor, I think I would want it APS-C size, to avoid anti-aliasing problems).
Even if Pentax had fast telephoto lenses in the lineup and a body oriented to sports shooting, the sports shooters wouldn't likely gravitate to Pentax due to no comparable professional services/support similar to what Nikon and Canon have.

Who is going to spend 4000-6000 on a body and 4000-12000 on lenses then rely on Precision or any of the other single point of failures to sit on their gear for weeks to months at a time? No one! that is who.
08-17-2016, 07:03 AM   #156
Pentaxian
RonHendriks1966's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,557
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Even if Pentax had fast telephoto lenses in the lineup and a body oriented to sports shooting, the sports shooters wouldn't likely gravitate to Pentax due to no comparable professional services/support similar to what Nikon and Canon have.

Who is going to spend 4000-6000 on a body and 4000-12000 on lenses then rely on Precision or any of the other single point of failures to sit on their gear for weeks to months at a time? No one! that is who.
A full set of professional gear for a sports photographer is more like 50.000 $ or more. You want service on that.
08-17-2016, 07:23 AM   #157
New Member




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 9
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Why?

I'm struggling to identify a good reason for a Pentax FF camera with no more than 24 MP, and (from the statement "beefed-up K3II") more of an action camera.

I know that the top-tier Canikons fit that description, but that puzzles me too. Surely it will be easier for Pentax to (say) have a high frame rate with an APS-C camera than with an FF camera? It would have a smaller and lighter mirror and shutter. And I would have thought that fast-behaving APS-C lenses are easier to develop than fast-behaving FF lenses.

(I am aware that an FF camera gives a more useful field of view at the 150mm end of the 150-450mm lens, and at the 70mm end of the 70-200mm lens. That is one of the things I like about the K-1. But I can't see why that would encourage Ricoh to go that way).

Is there are good reason why, if Ricoh wants to develop and launch a 20-24 MP camera that is "beefed-up", they shouldn't do this in an APS-C camera? For example, a future APS-C flagship?
The main reason why a FF well built DSLR is desired (by me ) is to make optimum use of our pka 35mm format lenses. If we want APS-C cropped images we can use our compacts and/or in my case Pentax Q, for which I have a superb selection of Taylor Hobson and Wollensak C mount adapted prime lenses. What for me would work is having a camera with a manual that once read can be put in a drawer. My Pentax Q manual is almost as thick as a Bible even though its NOT multilingual.
08-17-2016, 09:16 AM   #158
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,429
It is very difficult to get APS-C-format images with your compacts and Pentax Q - you could do it with stitching.
Can you think of better reasons why do you want FF, besides the vague idea of "to make optimum use of our pka 35mm format lenses"? If no, perhaps APS-C is the optimum solution, given your budget.

I guess Pentax could modify the K-1's mirror & shutter mechanism to reach 8 fps (up from the current 6.5)... but there would be consequences. Perhaps a lower reliability, perhaps a harsher mirror shock, perhaps lower burst exposure time for the AF system. I'd rather have a quieter, smoother shutter release, by the way.
But any such development must be balanced with other things - AF, processing, buffer size and clearing time, etc. (and, of course, lenses to match). A sports FF camera requires a lot of progress, which I'm afraid it just isn't possible in the short term. And there might not be a market for it.

I'm also favoring the idea of a faster APS-C, as the Pentax' "sports" option. The K-3 series with its 8+ FPS mirror is already a good start; work on it, uniform (but not dramatic) improvements all over the place, then incorporate some of these improvements in the next Pentax FF.

Besides continuous improvements and refining, I'd like to see Ricoh Imaging/Pentax innovating - perhaps there's time to challenge the conventional DSLR mechanics.

08-17-2016, 10:32 AM   #159
Site Supporter
jatrax's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,290
QuoteOriginally posted by harryzero Quote
What for me would work is having a camera with a manual that once read can be put in a drawer.
Nothing in a modern DSLR requires more knowledge of photography than a film SLR. The same principals apply. If you want an all manual 35mm digital, buy the K-1 put it in 'M' and have fun.

I do sympathize about the manual, I bought a Sony RX-100 and spent literally days poring over the manual. I finally decided it was a waste of time as I was never going to remember everything when I needed it. So I put the camera in Av mode learned to change the ISO and the aperture setting and just have fun. If you think Pentax cameras are complex please have a look at Sony. But my point is, don't worry about all the 'stuff' that you don't need or understand, just focus on what you do need.

K-1 has video, never used it. K-1 has HDR, never used it. K-1 has a bunch of filters and effects, never used any of it. K-1 has Astrotracer, never used it. K-1 has a whole bunch of things I have not used and likely never will. So what? It takes awesome pictures, uses my old K-mount glass and feels really good in my hands.
08-17-2016, 10:42 AM   #160
Lens Buying Addict
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,497
asahi man states emphatically - there is NO PLAN to bring another FF body spec.'ed ABOVE or BELOW K-1.

Look to APSc.
08-17-2016, 11:10 AM - 1 Like   #161
Pentaxian
Barry Pearson's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Stockport
Posts: 870
QuoteOriginally posted by harryzero Quote
The main reason why a FF well built DSLR is desired (by me ) is to make optimum use of our pka 35mm format lenses.
In other words, to help you avoid spending any more money with Ricoh!

I hope it is obvious that Ricoh won't put extra development effort in helping people avoid buying new lenses from Ricoh.
08-17-2016, 12:00 PM   #162
New Member




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 9
Thanks once again for all your comments, particularly jatrax who ' confesses' to being unlikely to use a multitude of features available on his K1; whilst being very pleased with his purchase.
I am being persuaded. Still torn between my recently acquired siege mentality and live life (carefully) while you can.
08-17-2016, 06:06 PM   #163
mee
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,258
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
A full set of professional gear for a sports photographer is more like 50.000 $ or more. You want service on that.
Even more so to the point, yes.

---------- Post added 08-17-16 at 08:12 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
asahi man states emphatically - there is NO PLAN to bring another FF body spec.'ed ABOVE or BELOW K-1.

Look to APSc.
Yes, I am one of those waiting to see what crops (pun intended) out of Photokina.

I did another cost analysis and determined a comparable FF system is out of my desired budget... and APS-C does a fine job for hobbytime anyways.

I also did a little research, on ebay, of older FF DSLR bodies from Nikon and Canon.. One can get an original 5D for a couple hundred dollars, D700 for around 500-600.. roughly the same for a D600. If someone is jonesing that badly for a FF system, I'd just look at one of those, build the lens lineup, and then upgrade bodies when the next hottest model is released. For those waiting for a sub 1k FF DSLR from Pentax, I strongly suspect you will be waiting several years.. and only for the K-1 to drop substantially in price - there is no motivation to undercut the K-1 with a newer body for less money. So either wait for Pentax prices to drop, or look for a used Canon or Nikon on ebay.
08-18-2016, 03:07 AM   #164
Veteran Member
Tan68's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Photos: Albums
Posts: 396
QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
... shoot more picts now ...
Picts are people, too :^|
08-18-2016, 03:43 AM   #165
Banned




Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 19
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Let me put it this way: you don't know "the demand is there" for another 24MP FF DSLR....
But it doesn't matter, because no 24MP FF Pentax is planned right now.
hey, kunzite...
Do you see the thread is growing? and what people are stating here? why do you think is that? is that because there is just no demand as you predicted it? LOL

and monochrome(+kunzite)
Why do you think, you would know about the plans of RICOH for a FF? Cards on the table peeps... - we wanna know and we want proof.
OK, this is an internet forum, so we all know it is no problem lying at people for ones own sake, but try to convince us, why you guys should know such things for sure?

Somewhat back in time, wheren`t exactly you two guys also doubting that there ever will be a Pentax FF?
(If not so, pardon me please. Maybe i mixed up something here. )

Me for my part, I am pretty sure that there will be a "faster" FF camera (SLT od DSLR) when more lenses are available....

I guess, RICOH will pull some more lenses out of their bag at first, and when the hype around K-1 and Mario&Luigi(150-450,70-200 -- 2000 each ) is gone and people are fed up with more fast and long lenses and have landed on planet earth again;
THEN... We will see nice kits that offer a sportive FF camera that has 20-24MP and lenses with F:4 throughout.
Just a guess. Could be sooner, though.

speaking for my person(and maybe some others), the reason I am(we are?) behind this, is not that the K-1 is too expensive...
Nope.... its just that we feel the K-1 is not for us, when we look at the core specs, which are indeed what some would call "dubious" or "shady"...
(AGAIN: I would pay exactly the same 2 grand or 1,6(US) for a faster, lower res(around 20MP) PENTAX FF DSLR without useless gimmicks like the moonlander legs and crazy-wheels)

Nonetheless, I(we) love the PENTAX brand and will forever worship the "straight-ahead" and very purposive design of the K-5, that spared us those "bells and whistles" from Canikon-Land(that now seem inherit in the very peculiar K-1) and made it possible to alter settings on a DSLR Body lightning fast, without cluttering up the body with useless buttons or wheels...
Partly, i also liked the K-3. But somehow already this DSLR made me "yikes- OMG they are stepping into the wrong direction". FI: I still can not figure out, why the "af-mode" button is not sitting on the "AF/MF" lever but instead above(what would have left space for a headphone jack) and overall i dont have a clue why they add button and changed lever function for video, when the system itself is lacking so much for doing proper video(headphone jack for instance, etc., etc.)
What i really liked about the changes on the K-3 was the placing of the light-measuring method and the lockable wheel.
I am pretty sure that not only from a design perspective, (to a certain point) LESS is MORE, when it comes to the "touchable interface elements" of a camera.

AND talking about sports cameras and because somebody named Rondo or so mentioned it: With a FF camera that can do what the K-3 can do, we are pretty much there.
I used the K-3 and predecessors on rallye events and such... and i think the results are very appropriate and it gives a proper "lucky hit rate" with a burst rate around 7fps(though 10 would be better) and PENTAX is on the best way to deliver a very professional sports camera in the very near future...
Often it is also very much about what settings you have made on the camera ...(where some settings can interfere with the functionality you want to reach)... that it just won`t work out for you at fast action. I learned that pretty soon, and now i know how to set up everything...


I just guess, PENTAX will have to rebrand or build an equivalent of the 150-600 Tamron lens with VC/optical-stabilization. (Yes, WITH VC!! i totally render in-body-SR useless above 135mm FL and especially when panning horizontally with a long tele....) If we really want to be more serious about SPORT...

following photos are maybe a bit too dark, i just pulled them out of LR without editing. but i think they proof that PENTAX DSLRs will do sports if you let them. I shot them with SIGMAs 70-300... I guess SR was off and weather on the day of the rally photos was bad'n'hazy.

Here:
Attached Images
View Picture EXIF
PENTAX K-5 II  Photo     
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
24mp full frame, 24x36mm, body, camera, d610, dslr, expenses, features, ff, files, frame, full-frame, image, k-1, k1, level, pentaprism, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, pixel, price, sensor, system, time, viewfinder, volume
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Irix 15mm f/2,4 for full frame K-mount Simen1 Pentax News and Rumors 457 03-04-2017 07:55 AM
Sony Alpha a7 Mirrorless Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP $398 Adorama interested_observer Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 9 04-24-2016 11:14 PM
For Sale - Sold: Tamron 28-75mm 2.8 Full Frame K Mount EricBrown Sold Items 6 03-23-2016 06:58 AM
Pentax Full Frame to Support All K-mount Lenses PF Staff Homepage & Official Pentax News 8 12-12-2015 04:21 AM
Leica announces 'M' 24MP live view full-frame CMOS rangefinder with movies jogiba Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 22 09-30-2012 01:17 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:30 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top