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08-18-2016, 05:23 AM - 1 Like   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
hey, kunzite...
Do you see the thread is growing? and what people are stating here? why do you think is that? is that because there is just no demand as you predicted it? LOL
I remember people insistently asking for a Pentax FF DSLR, for more than a decade. The result? Ricoh Imaging finally made it, yet they estimated the demand at no more than 7,000 units per month. Most likely that was an underestimation, but it shows that noise doesn't equal high demand.

Can you prove that, just by making a K-1 version with a smaller resolution sensor (but with faster read-out), fixed LCD and no Smart Function dial system Ricoh Imaging would double their FF market share? Of course you can't.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
and monochrome(+kunzite)
Why do you think, you would know about the plans of RICOH for a FF? Cards on the table peeps... - we wanna know and we want proof.
OK, this is an internet forum, so we all know it is no problem lying at people for ones own sake, but try to convince us, why you guys should know such things for sure?
Oh, you're getting rude and accusing us of lying; what a nicely behaved gentleman you are!
Breaking news: camera plans are made known to a restricted public in advance, and there are meetings and presentations, because the distribution network must be ready for the new products. I'm not talking about in-depth knowledge like technical specification, but at the very least, the existence of a future camera will be known. People are surprisingly tight-lipped, yet information should surface among Pentax enthusiasts such as selected people on this forum.
Just because you don't know doesn't mean other don't.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
Somewhat back in time, wheren`t exactly you two guys also doubting that there ever will be a Pentax FF?
(If not so, pardon me please. Maybe i mixed up something here. )
I'll speak only for myself (though monochrome's case is probably not very different). Though I'll have to ask you to debate ideas, and not persons.
I never doubted "that there ever will be a Pentax FF"; that's because "ever" is a too long time to make predictions.
I doubted that we'll see a Pentax FF about since Hoya started making their intentions known, and until Ricoh Imaging made their intentions known. I was right, but I'm not bragging about this since it was Hoya/Pentax itself who stated "no FF for now"; I merely listened to them.
I started believing we will see a Pentax FF from October 2012, when a highly ranked Pentax Ricoh Imaging official stated so in an interview. Not only that; I put my APS-C purchases on hold and started saving for the FF.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
Me for my part, I am pretty sure that there will be a "faster" FF camera (SLT od DSLR) when more lenses are available....
I said "no 24MP FF Pentax is planned right now". I'm not saying we'll never see a faster FF Pentax.
Actually, some performance improvements are to be expected in the future. What and when - I don't know. It could be a faster read-out high resolution sensor.

As for declaring the Flexible Tilt LCD "an useless gimmick", many will disagree with you. Actually, the only disadvantage is some increase in weight and camera thickness; otherwise you can just keep it flush with the body.
But, it is useful - if you're shooting with Live View, perhaps with the camera on a tripod, perhaps overhead in a crowded environment; and it's nice to be able to set the LCD's angle just enough so that annoying reflection is gone.

The AF button was introduced due to increased complexity - it doesn't only selects between M/AF-S/AF-C, but also the AF points selection modes (which are 7 in OVF mode and 5 in LV mode). It works nicely.
You can also have dedicated User Modes for action.

08-18-2016, 08:22 AM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
Me for my part, I am pretty sure that there will be a "faster" FF camera (SLT od DSLR) when more lenses are available....

I guess, RICOH will pull some more lenses out of their bag at first, and when the hype around K-1 and Mario&Luigi(150-450,70-200 -- 2000 each ) is gone and people are fed up with more fast and long lenses and have landed on planet earth again;
THEN... We will see nice kits that offer a sportive FF camera that has 20-24MP and lenses with F:4 throughout.
Just a guess. Could be sooner, though.
What is your prediction for when these things will happen? The above statement is so vague that it doesn't appear to be very useful!

For example, the current official Pentax FF roadmap shows 5 new lenses, (4 primes and a Fisheye zoom), coming in 2017 and beyond. Those don't include (for example) zooms with a constant f/4 maximum aperture. Are you predicting that road map is wrong? Or that the lenses that you think will come before or at the same time as your predicted camera will arrive in 2018 or later? Are you predicting a sporty FF Pentax in (say) 2018? 2019? (Or 2016 or 2017?)

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
speaking for my person(and maybe some others), the reason I am(we are?) behind this, is not that the K-1 is too expensive...
Nope.... its just that we feel the K-1 is not for us, when we look at the core specs, which are indeed what some would call "dubious" or "shady"...
(AGAIN: I would pay exactly the same 2 grand or 1,6(US) for a faster, lower res(around 20MP) PENTAX FF DSLR without useless gimmicks like the moonlander legs and crazy-wheels)
If you don't like those features, and the price of them isn't an issue, why not just not use them? After all, they are likely to make the camera more attractive for some people, if not you.

I've found the articulated LCD very useful indeed. The 4-leg flexibility is a bonus; I could manage with some other form of articulation, but I happen to use the 4-leg flexibility pretty-well whenever I use the basic hinge. I wouldn't pay that much money for a system camera without some form of articulation.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
Nonetheless, I(we) love the PENTAX brand and will forever worship the "straight-ahead" and very purposive design of the K-5, that spared us those "bells and whistles" from Canikon-Land(that now seem inherit in the very peculiar K-1) and made it possible to alter settings on a DSLR Body lightning fast, without cluttering up the body with useless buttons or wheels...
Partly, i also liked the K-3. But somehow already this DSLR made me "yikes- OMG they are stepping into the wrong direction". FI: I still can not figure out, why the "af-mode" button is not sitting on the "AF/MF" lever but instead above(what would have left space for a headphone jack)
Are you suggesting that the rotating lever reverts to switching between AF.S, C, and MF, like the K-5-series?

That would prevent the choice between AF.S & AF.C being controlled by User Modes.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
AND talking about sports cameras and because somebody named Rondo or so mentioned it: With a FF camera that can do what the K-3 can do, we are pretty much there.
I used the K-3 and predecessors on rallye events and such... and i think the results are very appropriate and it gives a proper "lucky hit rate" with a burst rate around 7fps(though 10 would be better) and PENTAX is on the best way to deliver a very professional sports camera in the very near future...
An FF camera has a bigger mirror and shutter than an APS-C camera, so the top Pentax FF camera would be unlikely to match the frames-per-second of the top Pentax APS-C camera at any time. That is why, given Ricoh's limitations compared with Canikon, I think it will be the Pentax APS-C flagship (or whatever) that has the highest burst rate, not an FF camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
I just guess, PENTAX will have to rebrand or build an equivalent of the 150-600 Tamron lens with VC/optical-stabilization. (Yes, WITH VC!! i totally render in-body-SR useless above 135mm FL and especially when panning horizontally with a long tele....) If we really want to be more serious about SPORT...
I find in-body SR effective well above 135mm!

I agree that it appears than panning switches SR off. But is that inevitable with in-body SR, or is it simply a limitation of the current K-1 design? Given that I have the 150-450mm and 70-200mm lenses, I wouldn't be in the market for such a lens! Yet Ricoh would surely hope that people with those lenses are the sort of people who would buy such a camera. Making in-body SR better for panning would make that camera more attractive to a lot of action photographers.
08-18-2016, 10:28 AM   #168
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Tl;DR.

FWIW I'm the 'Be of Good Cheer, Pentaxians! Ricoh has a Plan and You will be Happy!' guy, but people here got so tired of the optimism that I took it down. Ricoh's plan is what it is, but what it for sure isn't is your plan.

I don't recall writing they wouldn't do a FF, but you're welcome to mine my post history if you want.

Here are some rumors. Read the ones about FF especially.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-18-2016 at 06:16 PM.
08-18-2016, 02:38 PM   #169
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FTF: never meant to be rude... but there is still no proof that you are part of that restricted public you are talking about. sry. but i highly doubt that. Where is proof...? What is it you represent in photo industry? Are you selling cameras? If yes on which level? Click-Click-Click

QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
An FF camera has a bigger mirror and shutter than an APS-C camera, so the top Pentax FF camera would be unlikely to match the frames-per-second of the top Pentax APS-C camera at any time. That is why, given Ricoh's limitations compared with Canikon, I think it will be the Pentax APS-C flagship (or whatever) that has the highest burst rate, not an FF camera.
think before writing. it is nearly there. the shutter moves and closes the same way in crop-mode. in crop-mode you have 6.5fps on your K-1 AFAIK. Click!
(but maybe you are right... why should they give you "more in the core" when they can have you with less costy but therefore more shiny and glistening bait.)

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The AF button was introduced due to increased complexity - it doesn't only selects between M/AF-S/AF-C, but also the AF points selection modes (which are 7 in OVF mode and 5 in LV mode). It works nicely.
Easy, ... Read, then answer... If you are talking about the K-3s "af-mode" button, I know what it does. (it offers functionality together with my good old buddies the back and front wheel. )
But why the hell doesnt it sit on the AF/MF lever where it would not take up additional space?(just like it is on the D500?) Click? And why do my 2 good old pals refuse to work as smart wheels in conjunction with other buttons on the K-1 and i have to except this hoaxy "come-on-hipster-buy-me-wheels" on top?
(i want to silently add here, that the D500 is in no way a good sample of how or how many buttons, wheels, sticks or whatsoever freaking things should be placed...not EVER! but exactly that is my whole story. that is(was) just not the PENTAX way... i just dont want to end up with PENTAX cameras that look and are clumsy like Canikons NO!)


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Can you prove that, just by making a K-1 version with a smaller resolution sensor (but with faster read-out), fixed LCD and no Smart Function dial system Ricoh Imaging would double their FF market share? Of course you can't.
No. I cant. And AFAIR i didnt say that i could, or i would see it coming... :P But it is very likely that it would increase... not immensively but for sure very remarkably...
Its just that I really believe and feel it would have this "wow. a new FF digital for that price??" - "Sony A7"-tech-market-block-buster-effect.(IYKWIM)


OK aaahaand: the smart function dials have already existed on many PENTAX bodies...
like i mentioned it before, they could just work together with already existing buttons or 2 special buttons...like they do in conjunction with the AF button...
BTW... I am totally OK with moving display. and actually i am also OK with the moonlander
(despite its looking quirky it should make it massively solid. anyway, if it breaks it breaks and if such a DSLR hits the ground very hard, we all know it wont end good, no matter how you tilt or swivel your display... but so there was money and time invested in this mechanism, where a mechanism like on Panasonics GH4 would have done just right.(Yes i already played around with the K-1 for a few hours...)

Talking about just right. The internal SR is what i would call "just right" and you called "i find it well..." around 135mm and maybe a bit above. But you dont have any clue how much better it could be if you never had an IS, OS, VC or whatsoever called optically stabilized lens in your hands. I am also really a hardcore pentax user and god knows how much I fought for the PENTAX idea, but i swear onto my grandmothers grave... OS is way above what SR can do, planets if not galaxies...
I mounted the big gun, held it in my hands, switched the OS on, and despite that i get shaky hands very late in the evening, when i looked through the viewfinder, i immediately felt like the K-5 including lens just got mounted on a massive gimbal and somebody gave me a drug that made me totally relaxed...SR just cant keep up with that... ask anyone who knows his/her business...

i let the predicting do other people... I am just good at guessing.
And i guess the next FF will not take the "High-Resolution" road. Nonetheless I really hope for the faster readout...

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Ricoh's plan is what it is, but what it for sure isn't is your plan.
So does that mean i have to turn my plan around...? Invert Psychology... Maybe worth a try *rofl*
BTW, sry 4 tempting you... but i really thought you where among those nay sayers...
(i remember even when photos of the lenses where posted shortly after photokina 2014 with positive reports, everybody was just like "lets bash those f... FF addicts, they want to take away our "APS-C"ismostSANE-crown.
i dont mine history... i only do coins. but actually, if i only mine a bit and look at the present... maybe those FF-bashers where right....
it seems like it ruined the PENTAX idea of "convinience and reason"


and a tip for every pentaxian who jumped onto the boat in "the time of the great crack" ("K-5II to K-3"-transition)
read around the big words. (all that glitters is not gold)

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08-18-2016, 03:19 PM   #170
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Dude - it works this way. If I know I can't say. If I say I can't know. Again. No lulz here.

There isn't a cheaper FF planned. They're overwhelmed by the response to the K-1. It is literally sold out until December. FF lenses and accessories are where they're investing now. K-1 has already pushed everything else aside.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-18-2016 at 05:20 PM.
08-18-2016, 04:26 PM   #171
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Guys, why bother? Facts are unimportant to some. And replying is just feeding.
08-18-2016, 04:40 PM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Dude - it works this way. If I know I can't say. If I say I can't know. Again.
There isn't a cheaper FF planned.
Like I said before, I would be willing to pay the same as for the K-1.

FOR:
for less MP,
for less "display excentric",
for less wheels,

but therefore i want(i am sure along with many others, so it is not my plan:

USB 3.0/UHS-II or XQD,
faster readout(stills burst framerates),
bigger buffer,
higher ISO capabilities(but hey, that one comes for free, when you dont squish pixel on pixel so you maybe kill off your own mid-format)
the top-lcd back.

you will have to accept, that those specs would make such a camera more than desirable, and would prevent many Pentaxians from jumping ship.
In German we have kind of a Saying-Sprichwort: "Klingt komisch, is aber so." what would loosely translate to: "sounds funny, pal. but it is just like that."

if you do not remember:
I never complained about the pricing.

---------- Post added 08-18-16 at 04:43 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Guys, why bother? Facts are unimportant to some. And replying is just feeding.
yeah, facts like: there will never be a PENTAX full frame, ... believe me... I belong to the restricted public...

a dollar for everytime i read that on some forum, and i would buy me a new mercedes
08-18-2016, 04:44 PM   #173
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ivorianebony - tl;dr.
Just wait for Photokina, then CP+ - you'll see I am right. Why am I right, it doesn't matter - and I won't justify nor explain anything to someone who practically accused me of lying. I'm not trying to prove anything, and I'm definitely not trying to prove anything to you.

08-18-2016, 06:39 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
think before writing. it is nearly there. the shutter moves and closes the same way in crop-mode. in crop-mode you have 6.5fps on your K-1 AFAIK.
The K-3 was launched in 2013 with 8.3 fps in crop mode. (Its only mode).

The K-1 was launched in 2016 with 6.5 fps in crop mode. (Its high-fps mode).

As I said, and still say: "... so the top Pentax FF camera would be unlikely to match the frames-per-second of the top Pentax APS-C camera at any time".
08-18-2016, 07:49 PM   #175
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When I ponder, say a K5II with a FA31 on it versus a K-1 with a FA43 on it, it hits me that the K-1 basically takes up the same sorta room and is similar in weight (I use both at different times from the same small Domke FXB bag) I also believe that one has to accept in a brand like Pentax that each camera will have a range of features and capabilities that won't be needed by everyone..... but are simply needed in a simplified smaller camera range to ensure a broad appeal and efficient scale of production and price etc.

I also feel Ricoh are doing "just enough" to meet average requirements without over reaching in a declining market. We are very fortunate they even did something I reckon (FF wise)

Last edited by noelpolar; 08-18-2016 at 07:54 PM.
08-18-2016, 08:34 PM - 1 Like   #176
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Just like the K1 can't shoot a moving target like a guy on bike, so too Pentax won't meet the moving target of Pentax forum entities who wants every feature except whatever new camera they release will have.




Add... And not pay for it.
08-19-2016, 03:11 AM - 2 Likes   #177
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This thread has turned into idle speculation. As far as I can tell, there are two things that I am sure of.

(1) Pentax is not planning to release another full frame camera any time soon. Full Stop. Will they eventually? Of course. Will that eventual camera have better features than a K-1? I think most definitely. But that will be because it is launched a couple of years from now.

(2) The vast majority of ideas for new full frame cameras in this thread wouldn't significantly decrease the price of the camera. The K-1 is about perfectly targeted with regard to price and features in the marketplace. Bump the price higher and you lose sales, drop the features lower and you lose sales. All of it is a calculation, of course, but it looks to me like Pentax should be pretty satisfied with their results on the K-1 front.
08-19-2016, 01:57 PM   #178
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look at the stock chart. - they should do.


the jack of all trades attempt failed.

We need a Spotmatic effect.

if you dont know, that was a camera that sold app. 4 million units in a time where such a thing was thought impossible.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
This thread has turned into idle speculation.
Such threads exist out of speculation


...ah i could talk against a wall also... bye
08-19-2016, 11:19 PM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivorianebony Quote
he jack of all trades attempt failed.

We need a Spotmatic effect.

if you dont know, that was a camera that sold app. 4 million units in a time where such a thing was thought impossible.
No we don't!

What was relevant was the context and the competition in those days. Features didn't come on chips and/or firmware. Many aspects of image quality arose from the film used rather than the camera. The competition was far less varied than it is nowadays. There weren't so many millions of people owning SLRs in those days.

The experience of the Spotmatic has little if any relevance to today's market for dSLRs.

(The first SLR I used (1967) was a Spotmatic S1A. I still own two SP500 (cut-down) Spotmatics, and a number of other Pentax film SLRs. I owned two Pentax LX cameras with lots of extra equipment, until they were stolen. The K-1 is a vastly more powerful tool for photography than any of those!)
08-20-2016, 01:26 AM   #180
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Hmm... I cannot find the exact year when Pentax sold their 4th million SLR camera, but it should be around 1973-1974. It goes like this: 1st million in 1966, 2nd million in 1969, 3rd million in 1971 and 5th in 1976 (source: PENTAX history timeline - RICOH IMAGING EUROPE S.A.S).
The Spotmatic line - because it was indeed a line of products - was introduced in 1964, and ended in 1975 with the introduction of the K-mount.

But, while 4 million SLR cameras in a decade (1966 to 1976) was market-leading for those times, these days it corresponds to a market share of about 4%. Around 9.7 million SLRs were made and shipped last year (and 3.2 mirrorless ILCs).

So, what does it means to have "a Spotmatic effect", these days? Volumes are different, the market is different, competitors' positions are different, the products are very different. Camera makers are no longer pioneering (because SLRs are mature technology), and Canon and Nikon are well entrenched in their dominant position.
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