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07-12-2016, 07:46 AM   #76
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In order for Ricoh Imaging to become the #3 camera company, they only have to surpass Sony. Competing at Canikon levels is not necessary
Pentax would get close to that target if they manage to grab around 10% DSLR market share.

07-12-2016, 07:48 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In order for Ricoh Imaging to become the #3 camera company, they only have to surpass Sony. Competing at Canikon levels is not necessary
Pentax would get close to that target if they manage to grab around 10% DSLR market share.
Pentax is the #3 camera company if we talk about DSLR. Sony does not have DSLR anymore.
07-12-2016, 07:54 AM   #78
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Yes, but I'm talking about competing on the ILC market here - Pentax as a DSLR brand, Sony as a MILC.
Since the claim was not about market share per se, I'm excluding the compacts. Depending on many factors, Pentax could still have a chance to surpass Sony... though the conditions are more difficult than they were when that statement was made.
07-12-2016, 08:51 AM   #79
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Sony still sells a68, A7ii and a99.

I think the market is
1 canon
2 Nikon
3 sony
4 Olympus
5 fuji
6 Panasonic
7 Pentax
8 leica

But maybe Pentax is #6 above Panasonic.

07-12-2016, 08:57 AM   #80
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And Pentax still sells the Q.
But as I said, the claim was not about market share, specifically.

By the way, in Japan the MILC market share was: #1 Sony, #2 Olympus, #3 Panasonic. Fujifilm X was never in top 3. According to BCNRanking, anyway.

Last edited by Kunzite; 07-12-2016 at 09:09 AM.
07-12-2016, 09:34 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
If I remember well, Ricoh said some years ago they want to make Pentax one of the three big camera makers in 5 years (or something like this, I can't remember word by word). This means not one, not two, but three FF camera if they want to compete with the others. And of course, advanced video.

And I think that they are capable to do it, with some efforts. How long will take, did they had changed the plan or they keep that goal, I don't know. But I'm confident that at least one FF will come not to late, probably next year. Will be a cheaper model, or will be a profi camera, will see.

The lenses are a bigger problem than a 20+Mp FF, but there is a side way, already used.
They actually said there is room for a third, alternative full-line (SLR) camera company, and it can be Pentax. The goal to compete with CaNikon on their terms is the Twenty Year Vision. The 3-5-7 year goals are to grow with internal financing (from cash flow) at one point per year increase in market share; while remaining profitable.

Deliberate. Disciplined. Brand Values. It's all there. (Except for the USA, where I hear they are concerned about dSLR sales).
07-12-2016, 12:23 PM   #82
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The reason K1 is 36Mp is to allow decent crop mode as an argument for Pentaxians to think of a smooth upgrade with their current DA lenses. Most of the K1 camera body redesign to FF (mirror box , shutter mechanism etc) is already done, and the 24Mpixels image processing already exists for higher frame rate in the K3 series. Given that a number of Pentaxians are arguing that FF is expensive and heavy, it is not to be excluded at all that Ricoh would strip down the K1 to make a light weight version with a 24Mp sensor inside (D750 light weight style), along with a set of Pentax made f4 zooms to complete the DFA28-105. That would finish to convert the ones who are reluctant to get into the full frame zone. The main argument of people not willing to get a full frame camera are 1) size 2) cost. Once those two objections are addressed nobody can argue anything. One a full frame system gets priced +30% over apsc, it does not make sense to stick with apsc, with the only exception of when shooting with long lenses. Of course that would not happen until the sales potential of the K1 is exhausted.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-12-2016 at 12:28 PM.
07-12-2016, 12:31 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
They actually said there is room for a third, alternative full-line (SLR) camera company, and it can be Pentax. The goal to compete with CaNikon on their terms is the Twenty Year Vision. The 3-5-7 year goals are to grow with internal financing (from cash flow) at one point per year increase in market share; while remaining profitable.

Deliberate. Disciplined. Brand Values. It's all there. (Except for the USA, where I hear they are concerned about dSLR sales).
There is since the market for dslr is still 9 million units this year. So even having 1 million of them would be great, but somehow that isn't happening, not for Pentax and not for Sony.

07-12-2016, 12:44 PM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
There is since the market for dslr is still 9 million units this year. So even having 1 million of them would be great, but somehow that isn't happening, not for Pentax and not for Sony.
In the interchangeable lens cameras, lens mount induce cost of change. So, losing market share does not happen overnight (it's a slow process) but gaining market share is even harder and slower. Given the amount that Fuji seems to invest in marketing, Ricoh would need to invest a lot more to regain market share. It's simple, where I bought my camera, Fuji mirrorless are filling three shelves, and Pentax has one small shelf, Nikon occupy one wall and Canon another wall. I have to tell the sales guys what to order because he has no clue about Pentax products, however, if I ask him about Fuji he knows everything because he's been educated by Fuji sales guy. It seems like Fuji are fighting (via Fujilove and sponsoring some guys doing photoworkshops etc) to grab market share tiny bit after bit with their small teeth but over time they are able to carve a small place. I don't see that much effort from Pentax, apart from sending a camera and lens without much of argumentation to go with it. I have the feeling that Ricoh/Pentax do not attack the market, while Sony and Fuji are doing it.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-12-2016 at 12:51 PM.
07-12-2016, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #85
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Clearly with the K-1, Pentax had a price point they were building to. Above the D610, but below the D810, with enough features to make people think that this is truly a D810-lite. In many respects, the camera is evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Much of the technology had already been tried out in the K3 II. They thought (rightly so from what I can see) that this was the best option for them.

If they had tried to be the cheapest on the market, the amount of revenue would have been significantly smaller and it would have squeezed their APS-C line up besides. If they had pegged it too high, they wouldn't have sold enough.

The D800 sensor that is in the K-1 is an oldy, but a goody. It does give a lot of ability to crop and has nice dynamic range at base iso. It is also cheaper than all of the other full frame sensors out there, except for the 24 megapixel sensor mentioned in this thread.

As to the whole video aspect, I think Pentax has not had the resources to devote to it and so they figured they would check that box but not do a whole lot with it. At some point down the road, maybe they will invest more in it, but I guess that time hasn't come yet.
07-12-2016, 02:12 PM   #86
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Don't forget that while they used technology already tried in the APS-C range, they also had to work a lot on getting the FF basics - larger body, mirror&shutter mechanism, SR, viewfinder, AF, etc.
OTOH the D610 - whose launch price was no lower than K-1's - is just an updated D600, which itself is far from being Nikon's first FF DSLR. There just wasn't enough cost cutting to make a "Pentax D610" work.

As you said, the result is a D810-lite, and that's an amazing accomplishment IMO.
07-12-2016, 02:54 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As you said, the result is a D810-lite, and that's an amazing accomplishment IMO.
I think most agree K1 is an amazing camera, D800 level but priced lower, and still being pentax.
I also believe there will be a 2nd FF body from pentax soon, maybe fall 2017, even spring, not full-loaded and cheaper. and later a more advanced FF body.
But maybe 24MP sensor will not be found in any of these coming cameras, I am afraid. Pentax still does not have big enough market share to produce a 24mp camera only for a small portion of Pentax users. I am sure pentax sees the needs of lower resolution better high ISO low light cameras, but if it can only sell a few thousands units, they can not make enough profit from it at low enough price; but if they price it higher, market might complain it being too expensive for a 24mp camera! -- unfortunately, that is the fact at internet era: all reviews are based on numbers, not feelings or experiences, and buyers trust numbers too.
Plus the issue of needing AA filter on 24mp sensor. AA filter might scare away many other potential buyers as well.

After realized this, I bought K1.
07-12-2016, 03:52 PM   #88
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Spring 2017, no, we would already know about it - and it's too soon.
Fall 2017, "not full-loaded and cheaper", highly doubtful IMO - the K-1 is too affordable (considering that what we're seeing is its launch price).

My bet is on a somewhat more advanced camera, but perhaps we'll have to wait on the K-1's replacement/update for that. OTOH, Pentax should have some significant announcements in 2017... I wonder what...
07-12-2016, 05:13 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Spring 2017, no, we would already know about it - and it's too soon.
Fall 2017, "not full-loaded and cheaper", highly doubtful IMO - the K-1 is too affordable (considering that what we're seeing is its launch price).

My bet is on a somewhat more advanced camera, but perhaps we'll have to wait on the K-1's replacement/update for that. OTOH, Pentax should have some significant announcements in 2017... I wonder what...
I don't know, Pentax/Ricoh are very good at keeping things quiet until just before release...spring is definitely possible without us knowing, but I doubt it.

You might be right Re a more advanced camera, but it would need a significant jump in AF to appeal to sports shooter, and I don't think that'll be achievable any time soon.

In my opinion, 2017 will be a year of lenses. The 645 line could use some leaf-shutter lenses (although I don't know if they plan any), and there will almost definitely be more FF lenses (primes and maybe a range of f4 zooms).

Perhaps even a new 645 in 2017?
07-12-2016, 07:47 PM   #90
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I don't think there is a need to get to 24mp again.
Its a step back in sensor capability and change the economy of scale Pentax can get with sticking to the same sensor.
The 24mp exmor does not compare with the 36mp.
Just different... I can see it between my A7K and K1.

What the 24mp is better at is hiding flaws in technique and lens.
Not necessarily a bad thing.

However, the 36mp K1 file reduced to 24mp size looks more or less the same as the 24mp from the A7k ('K' being a Kolari modified sensor which actually has better o/p and no AA filter than a standard A7).
So with 36mp, all one needs to do is downsample and the edge sharpness issues with such lenses, or shake issues all "go away"
With file size still big enough for most needs.


So I think Pentax will release a cheaper non mag alloy 36mp camera.
But not a 24mp.

Personally , I rather they venture into a milc version with relevant k adapter or the K01 concept and symmetric lens designs to keep the profile small

Last edited by pinholecam; 07-13-2016 at 06:38 AM.
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