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07-13-2016, 03:22 AM   #91
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My guess is that Pentax will eventually release a camera that is a little higher end than the K-1 but continue selling the K-1 but drop the price on it to 1500 dollars at that point.

I do like pinholecam's idea of a K-02 with a full frame sensor. It would be a perfect match for the FA limiteds.

07-13-2016, 03:46 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The 6D is actually sold for about 1530 USD / 1380 euro (or 6200 ron, from our largest camera store - F64).
I think you have to change your glases.

Until 31 jully there is the Canon cashback promotion and the price for 6D is 5424 RON (1356 USD / 1205 euro) at our largest camera store - F64. And is even cheaper in other stores.

Canon EOS 6D body - CMOS Full Frame 20 Mpx ( WiFi + GPS ) - F64


And if we talk about THE LACK of support from our official Pentax dealer...it will take a while until Pentax is going to be seen and gain some market share. I'm not sure if Ricoh International or our Pentax official dealer is to blame for the lack of advertising or for the lack of interest for their clients, but this lack of attitude is the result of poor sales in Romania.

Pentax K3 is also expensive in Romania for an enthusiastic photographer and for this I blame our Pentax official dealer because is not studying the market and is not adjusting the prices. Nikon D7100 si 22% cheaper than K3. And, with so much marketing around Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji and Olympus, we are lucky if there are a hand of people interested in Pentax.

Yes, K-1 is a lot more of a camera than 6D in terms of specs and features, but if an enthusiastic photographer has to vote with his wallet...in 99% of cases will chose 6D or D610 (or even D750) because the 6D is 38% cheaper than K1 and because it gives you the possibilities to:

- buy cheap new lenses from Tamron/Sigma or buy a lot of original lenses from the second hand market
- borrow lenses from their friends
- rent lenses from almost anywhere (I often rent tele lenses for BIF because I don't want to pay 2000$ for a 100-400mmL lens).

A Pentax full frame with 24, 26 or 28 mp and with 6 or 7fps, priced between K3 Mark II and K1 will probably be a good idea for the amateur photographers who are looking to upgrade from K3. At least in my opinion.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-14-2016 at 12:44 AM.
07-13-2016, 05:32 AM   #93
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Dan, we had such discussions about a thousand times already - the problem is, you're very sure of what you believe and won't bulge a bit, no matter what. Honestly I'm tired of this.

I'm not considering time limited cashbacks nor discounts available just for some people. Indeed, Fotohobby has it for a slightly lower price.

The discussion was about the K-1, and you wrongly claimed that "K1 is quite expensive for enthusiastic photographers around here" when in fact it has a good price for Europe. And you refuse to acknowledge that no amount of marketing can increase sales, when there are no available products for delivery.

You don't get the K-1, which is not the cheapest - yet its launch price isn't higher than that of the 6D or D610 - nor a high volume camera. You don't get that competing on price alone would be a losing proposition for Pentax; what we got instead - the K-1 - is a stroke of genius.

Last but not least, you seem to believe that all the problems you're mentioning would somehow be "fixed" just by the presence of a cheaper Pentax. Yeah, right.
07-13-2016, 06:23 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Dan, we had such discussions about a thousand times - the problem is, you're very sure of what you believe and won't bulge a bit, no matter what. Honestly I'm tired of this.
Well, people must know how things are in Romania for a Pentaxian. And is not just me who's complaining. On our local Facebook page you are the only one satisfied with the services of our Pentax official distributor. The rest of us are sick and tired about the lack of attitude and the lack of professionalism of that store.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm not considering time limited cashbacks nor discounts available just for some people. Indeed, Fotohobby has it for a slightly lower price.
Well, you should. Because there are time limited cashbacks and discounts available for Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji and Olympus almost in any month. Pentax official store didn't had an offer since last year, in May. You can check on their website if you want to start crying.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The discussion was about the K-1, and you wrongly claimed that "K1 is quite expensive for enthusiastic photographers around here" when in fact it has a good price for Europe. And you refuse to acknowledge that no amount of marketing can increase sales, when there are no available products for delivery.

You don't get the K-1, which is not the cheapest - yet its launch price isn't higher than that of the 6D or D610 - nor a high volume camera. You don't get that competing on price alone would be a losing proposition for Pentax; what we got instead - the K-1 - is a stroke of genius.
K1 has a good price for Europe, I didn't argue at all with this statement. I said that K1 is expensive for an enthusiastic photographer and this is true. Yes, 6D and D610 were priced around the K1 price when were launched, but now both can be bought way cheaper than K1. And I also said that K1 has a lot more features than 6D, but enthusiatic photographers are not interested in top specs. They want afordable full frames with good image quality and afordable lenses.

Yes, "you are so correct". Marketing is the worst way to sell products. How stupid Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji and Olympus must be because they all put money and effort in their marketing. Is way better to stay hidden in your store, without publicity and without sales (like our Pentax official dealer is doing).

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Last but not least, you seem to believe that all the problems you're mentioning would somehow be "fixed" just by the presence of a cheaper Pentax. Yeah, right.
Enthusiastic photographers from Romania are interested either in high-end APS-C cameras either in affordable full frames cameras. If you do some research in our local stores maybe you would know that.

A consumer Pentax full frame with some cheap f4 lenses will have more sales in Romania than K1. 6D for example is the back up camera for almost any weeding photographer here, in Romania. And if you look at what Canon model has an enthusiastic photographer in his hand you will see a 6D in most of the cases.

So yeah, a lot of Pentaxians keep telling you that you are a little far from reality when you speak about romanian Pentax strategy in increasing sales, but you keep walking on your path.


Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-14-2016 at 12:46 AM.
07-13-2016, 06:48 AM   #95
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Oh? "People must know"? Dan, we're here on the Pentax Full Frame section, discussing about if a 24MP Pentax FF DSLR is feasible, and to be expected. You are very much off topic with your angry crusade. And I don't understand why this crusade of yours, since you gave up on Pentax.
If you think I'm fully satisfied with our distributor, you're not paying attention (but when did you?)

Why would I cry? Because I've got an excellent Pentax for a very good price, and not a 6D? For Pete's sake...

The K-1 is not targeted at those bargain-enthusiasts looking for the cheapest FF; it's not realistic to ask that from Pentax. The 6D and D610 are 3-4 years old cameras made from recycled components; the D610, especially, is just a minor update of the D600. A brand new Pentax attempting to match the street prices of those old cheap Canikons? And if they somehow do that (trough much crippling and cost cutting), then you'd lower the bar, and your "enthusiasts" would suddenly start looking for the even cheaper second hand equipment. Pentax can't be allowed to win.
IRL, the K-1 serves a very important role, it's targeted at those of us willing to spend reasonable amount of money (who might also buy higher-end lenses); so we won't be lost to the competition. Being the cheapest is not that important.

Yes, I am correct; I often was, in our discussions. And your strawman is lame.

Last edited by Kunzite; 07-13-2016 at 06:55 AM.
07-13-2016, 07:36 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Personally , I rather they venture into a milc version with relevant k adapter or the K01 concept and symmetric lens designs to keep the profile small
A good idea keeps good when time passes. ...

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/189624-24-megapixel...ml#post1992561
07-13-2016, 07:48 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Oh? "People must know"? Dan, we're here on the Pentax Full Frame section, discussing about if a 24MP Pentax FF DSLR is feasible, and to be expected. You are very much off topic with your angry crusade. And I don't understand why this crusade of yours, since you gave up on Pentax.
If you think I'm fully satisfied with our distributor, you're not paying attention (but when did you?)
Pfff, please! The only thing I agree with is that we are starting to go off topic. I didn't gave up on Pentax. I wish that Ricoh could see this discussion and investigate a little the situation in Romania regarding Pentax products. I want to see Pentax cameras and lenses advertised in Romania, as I want to see photographers being able to rent Pentax cameras and lenses. I will be the first in line to rent a K1 with 150-450mm.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why would I cry? Because I've got an excellent Pentax for a very good price, and not a 6D? For Pete's sake...

Yeah, why would you cry? There are "a lot" of discounts for Pentax products in Romania. See for yourself by clicking this link Promotii

And there are a lot of romanians (enthusiastic photographers) who can afford to buy a K1... For Pete's sake, wake up! What's the point in having a very good camera (Pentax K1) if no one knows about it, except from some Youtube reviews? Professional photographers from Romania are not going to change their current cameras for K1, no metter how good it is. They need support, lenses and service. We don't have any in Romania. They may change the boat in 4-5 years, if something change locally, because in terms of cameras, lenses and accesories I assume Pentax will be covered in the next few years.

What's the point in having a new Pentax K-70 launched and no one knows about it, not even our official Pentax dealer? You don't belive me? See the news section on their website Photomania
They didn't had the decency to write a short article about the release of a new affordable Pentax camera.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The K-1 is not targeted at those bargain-enthusiasts looking for the cheapest FF; it's not realistic to ask that from Pentax. The 6D and D610 are 3-4 years old cameras made from recycled components; the D610, especially, is just a minor update of the D600. A brand new Pentax attempting to match the street prices of those old cheap Canikons? And if they somehow do that (trough much crippling and cost cutting), then you'd lower the bar, and your "enthusiasts" would suddenly start looking for the even cheaper second hand equipment. Pentax can't be allowed to win.
IRL, the K-1 serves a very important role, it's targeted at those of us willing to spend reasonable amount of money (who might also buy higher-end lenses); so we won't be lost to the competition. Being the cheapest is not that important.
Who said anything about K1 and K1's target? There are 20-30 amateur photographers like you in Romania who will buy this camera because they are familiar with Pentax and they can afford to buy it and maybe another 10-15 professional photographers interested in K1 because is cheaper than D810. You call this a target for K1?

We are talking about a consumer camera from Pentax with 24, 26 or 28 mp, at least 6-7 fps and priced between K-3 Mark II and K1 to compete with 6D and D610. I said that a consumer full frame camera from Pentax with these specs and priced between K-3 II and K1 will sell better than K1 in Romania. Being the cheapest is not that important, but not being known in the market is much worse.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yes, I am correct; I often was, in our discussions. And your strawman is lame.
Yes you were, in your own mind perhaps. Each and every single Pentaxian from our local facebook page can testify that you are not right in those discussions, but if you sleep well at night knowing you're right, so be it.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-14-2016 at 01:15 AM.
07-13-2016, 08:34 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The K-1 is not targeted at those bargain-enthusiasts looking for the cheapest FF; it's not realistic to ask that from Pentax. The 6D and D610 are 3-4 years old cameras made from recycled components; the D610, especially, is just a minor update of the D600. A brand new Pentax attempting to match the street prices of those old cheap Canikons? And if they somehow do that (trough much crippling and cost cutting), then you'd lower the bar, and your "enthusiasts" would suddenly start looking for the even cheaper second hand equipment.
Pentax does that to. I think all camera makers do that. Just to name the Usb 2 with the slow traffic, the 86.000 metering, slow card writespeed. It's not all new under the hood. Some is development from some years ago. Notting wrong in it.

07-13-2016, 08:46 AM   #99
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Dan, once again you're getting personal, once again you're using strawmen against me. Stop it; it's disgusting.

I'll reiterate my points, so people here can see how "outrageous" they are:
1. The K-1 has a good price (incl. in Romania). This is not decided relative to some bargain-hunting Romanians.
2. It's not realistic to ask Pentax to make a FF DSLR at a launch price similar to 3-4 years old entry level Canikons. If the 6D and D610 will be replaced at Photokina, you will see that even Canikon won't do it.
3. K-1's sales are limited by production, not marketing - and I expect a shortage worse than we saw until now. No amount of extra marketing expenses (because there were such expenses, even if you do not acknowledge them) can sell even one extra camera - because none is available.

I won't point out to all your lies (which you consider absolute truths); you won't listen anyway. If you'd listen, you'd know by now that I think there's a lot to improve (at local, regional, and global level).

---------- Post added 13-07-16 at 06:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Pentax does that to. I think all camera makers do that. Just to name the Usb 2 with the slow traffic, the 86.000 metering, slow card writespeed. It's not all new under the hood. Some is development from some years ago. Notting wrong in it.
I never claimed it's "all new under the hood"; the question is, it's done to what degree?

Pentax didn't had a FF-compatible body; they didn't had a FF viewfinder system (including the folding mirror required for the 100% pentaprism); nor a FF SR system; the 86,000 segments metering system were never integrated to a FF pentaprism; nor the viewfinder information system. So many things required just to have a camera. Then, the AF was re-made; the LCD has the Flexi-tilt system; the sensor has 36MP; there's a new processor; and so on.
OTOH the D610, as I said, is a D600 with minor changes. Not much R&D expenses to be recovered from there.

Last edited by Kunzite; 07-13-2016 at 08:54 AM.
07-13-2016, 09:22 AM   #100
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Let's calm down and go back to the topic
I guess we went to a wrong direction, by assuming a lower resolution camera has to be a cheaper and lower end camera.
At least I don't think so. If there is a k1 alternative available, said 24mp sensor, better lowlight performance by say 1.5-2 stops than K1, and has everything exactly same as K1 and sells for same price, I will buy it without hesitating. I don't do birding often, so intensive cropping is not for me. I still shoot as I was in film era, frame carefully and take single picture, retake if necessary. I guess there are quite a few of us still doing similar way, so higher resolution's benefit is not that obvious to us, and we do see the much bigger files and slower processing. --- that is the reason some of us want a lower resolution camera, NOT because it will be cheaper.
07-13-2016, 10:11 AM   #101
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Did you get your K-1 repaired?
07-13-2016, 10:21 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Did you get your K-1 repaired?
Thank you for asking. No, the damage was beyond reasonable repair -- main chip board and SR system were damaged, plus the body cover and screen, and a lot of labor fee. It costs more than $1000 to fixed it. my credit card covers $1000 for the damage, but I had to mail the camera to them. I used the $$ for purchasing a 2nd one but the AF system had problem. Just got the replacement yesterday, haven't upgraded the firmware and set it up yet.
07-13-2016, 10:26 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Dan, once again you're getting personal, once again you're using strawmen against me. Stop it; it's disgusting.
"...using strawmen against me..." Be careful with this statement, you started to sound like Tony Northrup and we all know how appreciated he is in the Pentax land.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'll reiterate my points, so people here can see how "outrageous" they are:
1. The K-1 has a good price (incl. in Romania). This is not decided relative to some bargain-hunting Romanians.
No one argues with you here. K1 is a professional camera aimed to proffesional photographers, which is why enthusiastic photographers are not interested in K1.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
2. It's not realistic to ask Pentax to make a FF DSLR at a launch price similar to 3-4 years old entry level Canikons. If the 6D and D610 will be replaced at Photokina, you will see that even Canikon won't do it.
It was not realistic with K1, yet the launch price was excellent for such a featured camera (around 25% cheaper than D810 or 5D mark III). So, please tell me, why is it not realistic to make a 24mp consumer camera at 1300-1500$? Only because you said so... Yeah, right!

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
3. K-1's sales are limited by production, not marketing - and I expect a shortage worse than we saw until now. No amount of extra marketing expenses (because there were such expenses, even if you do not acknowledge them) can sell even one extra camera - because none is available.
K-1's sales are limited in Romania because no one is interested in selling this camera as a proffesional camera and in consequence, people compare K1 with 6D and D610, which is wrong. And I think this was the point of this thread, that Pentax should come up with a great consumer camera priced between K-3 II and K1.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I won't point out to all your lies (which you consider absolute truths); you won't listen anyway. If you'd listen, you'd know by now that I think there's a lot to improve (at local, regional, and global level).
Pfff, come on man. You forget that people from Pentax Facebook page are joking about you saying that either you work for Focus94 (our official Pentax dealer) or you try to became some sort of Pentax ambassador? Don't worry, it's nothing personal. You are more than welcome to come shooting with me and my friends. We are a group of 5-6 persons, with different brand cameras. I have a Canon 6D, Razvan has a Pentax K-3 II, Cristian has an Olympus OM-D, Radu has a Nikon Df and a D810 and Tudor has a Sony Nex 7 and A6000 (I think). So...a mixed group and a lot of fun. We appreciate the results we get from our cameras and we never talk about which camera is the best or the worse.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 07-14-2016 at 12:42 AM.
07-13-2016, 10:28 AM   #104
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Dan, I will attempt to discuss with you again after you will acknowledge even one of my points. Otherwise it's futile.

QuoteOriginally posted by grahame Quote
Thank you for asking. No, the damage was beyond reasonable repair -- main chip board and SR system were damaged, plus the body cover and screen, and a lot of labor fee. It costs more than $1000 to fixed it. my credit card covers $1000 for the damage, but I had to mail the camera to them. I used the $$ for purchasing a 2nd one but the AF system had problem. Just got the replacement yesterday, haven't upgraded the firmware and set it up yet.
Sorry to hear that... hopefully, third time's a charm.
07-14-2016, 10:26 AM   #105
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Pentax will not care that someone wants a 24MP FF camera to save some money within the near future... It took them forever to offer the first FF camera with 36 MP and a decent price. Check out lenses and lens prices for the FF system. If you want to pay less it is not for you. They have a full range of APS-C lenses and need to update these cameras as well with similar pixel counts. Pentax pricing will refelect their sales. As long as people buy Pentax why on earth should they lower the price. This whole discussion is quite pointless.
I would have been happier with 24 MP, but Pentax market research will show that 36 MP will last longer int he market and is able to make a statement.
Pentax should offer an APS-C high-end update soon. I would expect an K1 update within 2 years with K1 dropping in price - this will be your entry level camera. Pentax does not really lack cameras right now, they lack lenses. And the medium format line also needs attention.
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