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11-02-2016, 08:19 PM - 1 Like   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
This forum tends to want to plug its ears and yell 'la-la-la' at anything deemed even remotely negative to the brand. However, if Pentax is reading this forum as they seem to have indicated, then they need to know the truth.

It's the opposite, Mee.

I don't know why, but there's a streak of negativity and pessimism not found in other single-brand forums I've looked at - hence, the 'Pentax Is Doomed' trope.

This attitude started the legendary 'Why I Will Not Buy a K-3' thread, right?

Some of it was due to guys no longer shooting Pentax but hanging around anyway, just to cause trouble ... Jogiba, JSherman, Neostyles, Osv, et al - many of these people were banned. You can probably throw RonHendricks in there, too.


Last edited by clackers; 11-02-2016 at 09:25 PM.
11-02-2016, 08:23 PM - 2 Likes   #32
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I can get to five pretty easily. In no particular order:

1. Ergonomics
2. Build quality from entry level up
3. Limiteds!
4. WR from entry level up
5. SR from entry level up
6. Legacy lens support
7. Colours (in the images, not of the bodies )
8. Value for money

All still hold true in the full frame era.
11-02-2016, 08:36 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It's the opposite, Mee.


I don't know why, but there's a streak of negativity not found in other single-brand forums I've looked at - hence, the 'Pentax Is Doomed' trope.


This attitude started the legendary 'Why I Will Not Buy a K-3' thread, right?

ahh yes.. that thread. That thread started off with someone upset by seeing 'Ricoh' printed on the rear of the camera and fear it would spread to the front.

That said, 'Ricoh' wasn't printed on subsequent bodies, so it seems to have been 'heard' by corporate.

It was the community that then decided to try and attack the OP and/or argue whether or not the Ricoh brand labeling mattered (much defending). So it kind of makes my point.. it only went silly after around page 4 or so where it quickly fell off the rails.
11-02-2016, 09:16 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
ahh yes.. that thread. That thread started off with someone upset by seeing 'Ricoh' printed on the rear of the camera and fear it would spread to the front.

That said, 'Ricoh' wasn't printed on subsequent bodies, so it seems to have been 'heard' by corporate.

It was the community that then decided to try and attack the OP and/or argue whether or not the Ricoh brand labeling mattered (much defending). So it kind of makes my point.. it only went silly after around page 4 or so where it quickly fell off the rails.
I'll write you down as a supporter of the OP's contention, then, Mee!

I don't think he was a troll like others I've mentioned, he has a right to state a belief, but others have a right to disagree. If you offer an opinion on the Internet, be sure you think it through, that's how it works.


Last edited by clackers; 11-02-2016 at 09:27 PM.
11-02-2016, 10:07 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I'll write you down as a supporter of the OP's contention, then, Mee!

I don't think he was a troll like others I've mentioned, he has a right to state a belief, but others have a right to disagree. If you offer an opinion on the Internet, be sure you think it through, that's how it works.
Disagreements shouldn't involve personal attacks. These end up in personal attacks, name calling, suspicion, mocking.. that's how it works. But that is not how it should work. Mods generally let it fly too.. so wear your oven mitts when stating any opinion less than glowing online.
11-02-2016, 10:09 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The truth is, if one is not kissing Pentax's feet, they're going to get personally attacked here. It doesn't matter if it is well thought out or not. I've seen it time and time again. Wear your oven mitts when coming to PF.
It's pretty easy for most of us mee. Don't attack other people's gear. It's funny, you have one of the most negative attitudes on the forum. And you insult everyone who's more positive than yourself, which is pretty much everyone.

QuoteQuote:
The truth is, if one is not kissing Pentax's feet, they're going to get personally attacked here.
So you're saying all of us who aren't getting personally attacked are kissing Pentax's feet? Is that it?

Or you are saying that those of us who like Pentax for "well thought out" reasons and get attacked for it are not worth mentioning?

Do you really think negative attitudes towards Pentax are all the truth and all the positive expressions are fan boys?

Do you think someone who says "The truth is, if one is not kissing Pentax's feet, they're going to get personally attacked here." belongs on this forum?

Anyone who thinks their opinions are the truth, and that others are "kissing Pentax's feet" is almost certainly in need of professional counselling.
11-02-2016, 11:05 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Disagreements shouldn't involve personal attacks. These end up in personal attacks, name calling, suspicion, mocking.. that's how it works.
You've been on the receiving end yourself?

Show me a link, Mee, I'd be interested to see what you think was said about you that should be censored or prohibited ... not everyone is out to have cups of iced tea with each other, even though that would be nice, of course. I'd buy.
11-03-2016, 12:27 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I don't know why, but there's a streak of negativity and pessimism not found in other single-brand forums I've looked at - hence, the 'Pentax Is Doomed' trope.
I've seen a lot of negativity about Nikon AF
!!! Some people criticize Nikon vs Canon. Some people make the switch (a lot of them don't) from Canon to Nikon to Canon, or Nikon to Canon to Nikon, just because they are so needy to have the perfect camera that a tiny thing make them dump $5K. You have apsc dslr, switch to full frame. You have full frame, ahhrrr FPS too low gear too large, switch to mirrorless. You have mirrorless AF too bad battery life too low, switch to D500. You have D500, dynamic range too low, switch to A7rII or D810. If you are in sales, a customer who want to have it all, is the perfect cow to milk to dead. After you spend $10K in Canikon gear, the salesman is happy and you can only bite your fingers for having spent so much money to take pictures.

---------- Post added 03-11-16 at 08:41 ----------

oh there's also why Canon sucks :-)


11-03-2016, 02:27 AM - 2 Likes   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
ahh yes.. that thread. That thread started off with someone upset by seeing 'Ricoh' printed on the rear of the camera and fear it would spread to the front.

That said, 'Ricoh' wasn't printed on subsequent bodies, so it seems to have been 'heard' by corporate.

It was the community that then decided to try and attack the OP and/or argue whether or not the Ricoh brand labeling mattered (much defending). So it kind of makes my point.. it only went silly after around page 4 or so where it quickly fell off the rails.
Clearly Pentax has flaws. If you looked at it/read it, you would see that the particular thing that Zapp linked to was specifically oriented towards APS-C cameras. The lens variety mentioned was for APS-C specific lenses, not full frame ones and indicated that Pentax has 24 crop lenses versus other brands having fewer. Regardless of the reason for it, there are many people for whom crop cameras are ideal and that lens selection for APS-C is nice to have available. That said, I am convinced that Ricoh is working on more full frame lenses and that by this time next year there will be a more complete full frame line up.

As to the whole rebadged Tamron thing, the lenses work, I haven't had issues with them and only two of the five are Tamron rebadges. The 28-105, 70-200, and 150-450 are Pentax designed and built.

As far as I know, Nikon also uses Precision, for what its worth and unless you pay for professional service, I don't think you get much better service than what Pentaxians get.

Anyway, I don't find it particularly useful to bash any brand -- not Sony, Canon, Nikon or any of the others out there. Each one has examples of hyperbole on their web site, plenty of advertising-speak, and each one glosses over any weaknesses they might have. Ricoh isn't different in that respect, but I still find their gear to be high quality and give good bang for the buck.

Last edited by Rondec; 11-03-2016 at 05:26 AM.
11-03-2016, 04:07 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
If we're going to be honest, neither are the fanatically positive threads too.
Fanatically positive threads, on this forum? Please give some links. I expect them to be something like "My new shiny Sony is much better than the Pentax junk".

I'll share an outrageous idea, hear it out: long time users of a brand should be generally happy with said brand. That - rather than unhappiness and forever looking for problems - is the normal state. Because if you're unhappy with a brand, you should find another with which you'll be happier - otherwise we're talking about masochism.

Nothing is perfect, so there will be complaints; equipment always has limitations so there will be discussions about that, and how to work around.
But a constant stream of negativity, coming form a few users - some not being Pentaxians any longer? That isn't normal.
And if they're making up stuff? (like, for example... "fanatically positive threads"?)

So I'll throw your words back at you: be honest.
11-03-2016, 04:23 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Anyway, I don't find it particularly useful to bash any brand -- not Sony, Canon, Nikon or any of the others out there. Each one has examples of hyperbole on their web site, plenty of advertising-speak, and each one glosses over any weaknesses they might have. Ricoh isn't different in that respect, but I still find their gear to be high quality and give good bang for the buck.
+1
11-03-2016, 06:14 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by narual Quote
Color variation in this case was referencing the many shades of paint or plastic the consumer level Pentax bodies are available in.
oh, never woulda thunk that, thanks. my ks2 has orange bottom and gets lotsa compliments! however, just like many choose leica for 'color rendition' in results, i think one can make that choice with pentax, and that may be ultimately even more important than my orange bottom!
11-03-2016, 06:19 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
You've been on the receiving end yourself?

Show me a link, Mee, I'd be interested to see what you think was said about you that should be censored or prohibited ... not everyone is out to have cups of iced tea with each other, even though that would be nice, of course. I'd buy.
You've been here as long as I have and you haven't seen the attacks on people? Look in this very thread.

Some people value their purchased products like they're an extension of themselves or their family. They're not family. They're chunks of metal and plastic.

It would be similar to getting bent out of shape over someone saying your Stanley made hammer has aspects you don't value and you flipping the table and foaming at the mouth as a result.
11-03-2016, 06:21 AM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's pretty easy for most of us mee. Don't attack other people's gear. It's funny, you have one of the most negative attitudes on the forum. And you insult everyone who's more positive than yourself, which is pretty much everyone.



So you're saying all of us who aren't getting personally attacked are kissing Pentax's feet? Is that it?

Or you are saying that those of us who like Pentax for "well thought out" reasons and get attacked for it are not worth mentioning?

Do you really think negative attitudes towards Pentax are all the truth and all the positive expressions are fan boys?

Do you think someone who says "The truth is, if one is not kissing Pentax's feet, they're going to get personally attacked here." belongs on this forum?

Anyone who thinks their opinions are the truth, and that others are "kissing Pentax's feet" is almost certainly in need of professional counselling.
i think what hes saying is pretty simple to grasp, and i have made the same observation: there are many who post here frequently who brook no criticism of pentax. period. and they express that not in well thought out reasoning--which is fine--but in thinly veiled--and often not so thinly veiled--ad hominim attacks on the poster and/or ridiculous characterizations of the original criticisms/observations. even a cursory review of this thread amply demonstrates that point. in this respect, unfortunately, this forum does not distinguish itself from most other forums, where users conflate their gear with their ego, or their family, to be defended to the death. i think if we stick to reasoned debate, there would be no issue at all.
11-03-2016, 06:36 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Clearly Pentax has flaws. If you looked at it/read it, you would see that the particular thing that Zapp linked to was specifically oriented towards APS-C cameras. The lens variety mentioned was for APS-C specific lenses, not full frame ones and indicated that Pentax has 24 crop lenses versus other brands having fewer. Regardless of the reason for it, there are many people for whom crop cameras are ideal and that lens selection for APS-C is nice to have available. That said, I am convinced that Ricoh is working on more full frame lenses and that by this time next year there will be a more complete full frame line up.
Obviously on both accounts (Pentax has flaws and Ricoh is working on more FF lenses). But my claim wasn't ever that APS-C didn't have it's value (where did you get that from me?). I should know as I'm currently using an APS-C system.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As to the whole rebadged Tamron thing, the lenses work, I haven't had issues with them and only two of the five are Tamron rebadges. The 28-105, 70-200, and 150-450 are Pentax designed and built.
Yes they work fine, there is nothing wrong with their quality, but that is missing my point entirely.


QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As far as I know, Nikon also uses Precision, for what its worth and unless you pay for professional service, I don't think you get much better service than what Pentaxians get.

Anyway, I don't find it particularly useful to bash any brand -- not Sony, Canon, Nikon or any of the others out there. Each one has examples of hyperbole on their web site, plenty of advertising-speak, and each one glosses over any weaknesses they might have. Ricoh isn't different in that respect, but I still find their gear to be high quality and give good bang for the buck.
Well, yes, Nikon uses Precision but they also use a handful of other repair facilities across the country. Your pick.

We don't have a pick. Nor do we have Professional service in the same manner as Nikon or Canon, since you mentioned it.

It is interesting how you've gone into defensive mode over the brand, as a result of a minor amount of negativity towards the brand. It again furthers my point.. since I wasn't bashing the brand.

Let me make it clear, *I* wouldn't be using the brand's products if I didn't value them. However, I also know the dangers of coveting them. And, having experience in the aspects I found needing work, see the brand still has it's work cut out for it. Brand fanboys don't see that and want to cultivate an environment where everything is rosy and fine. And I'm seeing that even in this thread, by the responses. Instead of either accepting or dismissing the claims, people miss the points and attack the point maker as a result of them sensing a disturbance in the force. It makes for a rather one way discussion on the forums as it is only friendly here if you take your number, get in line, and keep your head down. No soup for you!

---------- Post added 11-03-16 at 08:37 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rbelyell Quote
i think what hes saying is pretty simple to grasp, and i have made the same observation: there are many who post here frequently who brook no criticism of pentax. period. and they express that not in well thought out reasoning--which is fine--but in thinly veiled--and often not so thinly veiled--ad hominim attacks on the poster and/or ridiculous characterizations of the original criticisms/observations. even a cursory review of this thread amply demonstrates that point. in this respect, unfortunately, this forum does not distinguish itself from most other forums, where users conflate their gear with their ego, or their family, to be defended to the death. i think if we stick to reasoned debate, there would be no issue at all.

Thank you, sir! On the nose.
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