Tech Question: Why Are FF DSLRs So Large?

**monochrome** · 02-13-2017, 05:45 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by MarkJerling

Especially when the thing needs a service. Remember the days of plugs, points, filter and oil?

I remember doing that myself in the back yard.

*

GeneV · 02-13-2017, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Tony Belding

I understand this, but it doesn't really fit my own observations.

If you look at the smallest DSLR that Pentax has produced, which I believe is the K-S1, you'll see it's not much bigger than a 35mm SLR body. The constraints on making it any smaller are the K-mount, the optical viewfinder (mirror and pentaprism), and the LCD display. So, most of the factors that keep it from shrinking are those legacy standards that came down the 35mm film days. By way of comparison, my Olympus E-M5 doesn't have all that film legacy and is smaller than a 35mm SLR.

If "full frame" 135 format is our requirement, then consider the Sony A7.

For a pro who has to get the shot right, discrete controls are important. For others not. YMMV. I used a K-x for years, which is about the size of the K-S1. Like the A6000, these cameras lack the front adjustment wheel. It is annoying to many of us not to have a separate control for shutter speed and aperture. The A7 has large, well spaced controls and a front adjustment wheel, as does my A7R.

IMHO, the A7 series is a good fit, but could be improved by putting the EVF to the top rear corner, like the A6000, rather than adding what looks like a prism on the top. The corner EVF was a great idea, because not only is the camera more pocketable, your nose goes to the side of the body and does not smudge the rear LCD.

abhaskare · 02-15-2017, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Tony Belding

I'm partial to the control layout of the Fujifilm X-T1 series, where the primary controls are: shutter speed, ISO sensitivity, EV comp, and an aperture ring on the lens. It reminds me of the Pentax ZX-5n. I'm not sure why the rest of the industry moved away from that. (However, there are other things about the Fuji that I didn't like so much, which is why I don't have one anymore.)

---------- Post added 02-12-17 at 07:28 PM ----------

I habitually shoot raw with manual focus lenses, and there's a long, long list of camera functions that I no longer have to use or think about anymore.

+1
In case of AF, I only use center point AF and never felt the need for more points although I have 11 to access. With all the advances in multipoint AF, it many times gets wrong - like focussing a chair that is closer to you then the subjects at a distance. Why rely on a computer when u can easily make that decision!

GeneV · 02-24-2017, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Specifically which of the external controls that a professional photographer wants to actively and intentionally manage would you relegate to 'functions that a computer can do' to make the FF camera smaller?

(or are you suggesting cameras do away with jpeg image processing?)

Good question. Most of the jpeg processing settings are buried in menus even on the largest professional cameras. I certainly wouldn't want to see camera real estate taken up by a contrast or even a white balance control.

Essentials are shutter speed, aperture, metering/AE mode, exposure compensation and ISO in easy reach. A close second is the focus mode. (I'd really like to go back to a switch for AFS, AFC and Manual, as on the K10d.) There are many other features of modern cameras which are not essential, but which are made even less useful by being buried in menus. One of these is single/continuous shutter. I remember the switch on the winder, and it was pretty handy.

**monochrome** · 02-24-2017, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Good question. Most of the jpeg processing settings are buried in menus even on the largest professional cameras. I certainly wouldn't want to see camera real estate taken up by a contrast or even a white balance control.

Essentials are shutter speed, aperture, metering/AE mode, exposure compensation and ISO in easy reach. A close second is the focus mode. (I'd really like to go back to a switch for AFS, AFC and Manual, as on the K10d.) There are many other features of modern cameras which are not essential, but which are made even less useful by being buried in menus. One of these is single/continuous shutter. I remember the switch on the winder, and it was pretty handy.

I agree completely.

My pet peeve is that unless I tick a Menu box, AF.C reverts to AF.S when the camera sleeps. Then. If I tick the Menu box and then put the camera away without changing that selection, I'm still in AF.C the next time I use the camera.

GeneV · 02-24-2017, 07:12 AM

I also liked SR as an external switch for a similar reason. The wheel on the top of the K1 was a step in the right direction, but I would quibble with a few of the choices to include, such as exposure compensation, which is easily adjusted already. Wifi is also not something you need to activate or deactivate in the middle of a shot and crop is a bit of an iffy choice as well. The more things they add to that wheel, the more like a menu and less like a control for quick decisions it becomes.

**lithedreamer** · 02-24-2017, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

I also liked SR as an external switch for a similar reason. The wheel on the top of the K1 was a step in the right direction, but I would quibble with a few of the choices to include, such as exposure compensation, which is easily adjusted already. Wifi is also not something you need to activate or deactivate in the middle of a shot and crop is a bit of an iffy choice as well. The more things they add to that wheel, the more like a menu and less like a control for quick decisions it becomes.

Haha, clearly they were trying to appeal to diverse interests. I find it mostly adequate (except for HDR, that's useless).

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02-13-2017, 05:45 AM - 1 Like	#61
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by MarkJerling Especially when the thing needs a service. Remember the days of plugs, points, filter and oil? I remember doing that myself in the back yard. *

02-13-2017, 08:08 AM	#62
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Tony Belding I understand this, but it doesn't really fit my own observations. If you look at the smallest DSLR that Pentax has produced, which I believe is the K-S1, you'll see it's not much bigger than a 35mm SLR body. The constraints on making it any smaller are the K-mount, the optical viewfinder (mirror and pentaprism), and the LCD display. So, most of the factors that keep it from shrinking are those legacy standards that came down the 35mm film days. By way of comparison, my Olympus E-M5 doesn't have all that film legacy and is smaller than a 35mm SLR. If "full frame" 135 format is our requirement, then consider the Sony A7. For a pro who has to get the shot right, discrete controls are important. For others not. YMMV. I used a K-x for years, which is about the size of the K-S1. Like the A6000, these cameras lack the front adjustment wheel. It is annoying to many of us not to have a separate control for shutter speed and aperture. The A7 has large, well spaced controls and a front adjustment wheel, as does my A7R. IMHO, the A7 series is a good fit, but could be improved by putting the EVF to the top rear corner, like the A6000, rather than adding what looks like a prism on the top. The corner EVF was a great idea, because not only is the camera more pocketable, your nose goes to the side of the body and does not smudge the rear LCD.

02-15-2017, 08:27 AM	#63
abhaskare Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Phoenixville, PA Posts: 136	Originally posted by Tony Belding I'm partial to the control layout of the Fujifilm X-T1 series, where the primary controls are: shutter speed, ISO sensitivity, EV comp, and an aperture ring on the lens. It reminds me of the Pentax ZX-5n. I'm not sure why the rest of the industry moved away from that. (However, there are other things about the Fuji that I didn't like so much, which is why I don't have one anymore.) ---------- Post added 02-12-17 at 07:28 PM ---------- I habitually shoot raw with manual focus lenses, and there's a long, long list of camera functions that I no longer have to use or think about anymore. +1 In case of AF, I only use center point AF and never felt the need for more points although I have 11 to access. With all the advances in multipoint AF, it many times gets wrong - like focussing a chair that is closer to you then the subjects at a distance. Why rely on a computer when u can easily make that decision!

02-24-2017, 06:46 AM	#64
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by monochrome Specifically which of the external controls that a professional photographer wants to actively and intentionally manage would you relegate to 'functions that a computer can do' to make the FF camera smaller? (or are you suggesting cameras do away with jpeg image processing?) Good question. Most of the jpeg processing settings are buried in menus even on the largest professional cameras. I certainly wouldn't want to see camera real estate taken up by a contrast or even a white balance control. Essentials are shutter speed, aperture, metering/AE mode, exposure compensation and ISO in easy reach. A close second is the focus mode. (I'd really like to go back to a switch for AFS, AFC and Manual, as on the K10d.) There are many other features of modern cameras which are not essential, but which are made even less useful by being buried in menus. One of these is single/continuous shutter. I remember the switch on the winder, and it was pretty handy.

02-24-2017, 06:52 AM	#65
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by GeneV Good question. Most of the jpeg processing settings are buried in menus even on the largest professional cameras. I certainly wouldn't want to see camera real estate taken up by a contrast or even a white balance control. Essentials are shutter speed, aperture, metering/AE mode, exposure compensation and ISO in easy reach. A close second is the focus mode. (I'd really like to go back to a switch for AFS, AFC and Manual, as on the K10d.) There are many other features of modern cameras which are not essential, but which are made even less useful by being buried in menus. One of these is single/continuous shutter. I remember the switch on the winder, and it was pretty handy. I agree completely. My pet peeve is that unless I tick a Menu box, AF.C reverts to AF.S when the camera sleeps. Then. If I tick the Menu box and then put the camera away without changing that selection, I'm still in AF.C the next time I use the camera.

02-24-2017, 07:12 AM	#66
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	I also liked SR as an external switch for a similar reason. The wheel on the top of the K1 was a step in the right direction, but I would quibble with a few of the choices to include, such as exposure compensation, which is easily adjusted already. Wifi is also not something you need to activate or deactivate in the middle of a shot and crop is a bit of an iffy choice as well. The more things they add to that wheel, the more like a menu and less like a control for quick decisions it becomes.

02-24-2017, 11:28 AM	#67
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	Originally posted by GeneV I also liked SR as an external switch for a similar reason. The wheel on the top of the K1 was a step in the right direction, but I would quibble with a few of the choices to include, such as exposure compensation, which is easily adjusted already. Wifi is also not something you need to activate or deactivate in the middle of a shot and crop is a bit of an iffy choice as well. The more things they add to that wheel, the more like a menu and less like a control for quick decisions it becomes. Haha, clearly they were trying to appeal to diverse interests. I find it mostly adequate (except for HDR, that's useless).