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07-15-2017, 04:32 PM - 1 Like   #31
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I *think* her eyes are in reasonable focus, but the image is too small, the ISO too high and a hand held head shot is not an appropriate test.

Put the camera on a tripod and shoot some static subjects. Shoot wide open, focussing on the same spot, first by PDAF (through the viewfinder) and then CDAF (live view). If the results are different then the PDAF needs adjustment. If they are both sharp the problem in the above shot is movement. If they are both soft then the lens is soft wide open. It could also be a combination of the two of course, or accurate focus on the wrong spot....

As far as hand held ambient light portraits go, I have been through a bunch of old shots for something comparable to your setup and found these taken years ago with a K-5 and Sigma 70-200 @ f/2.8

ISO 6400



ISO 100



If you pixel peep in flickr you will notice a dramatic difference in fine detail, despite what I think is reasonable focus in both shots.

Even the K-1 deteriorates a bit at ISO 6400



Again, movement and poor focus technique may have contributed a little, but I think it illustrates that there is no substitute for more light. With good technique, very natural results can be achieved with on-camera bounced flash.




Last edited by Sandy Hancock; 07-15-2017 at 04:57 PM.
07-15-2017, 04:59 PM   #32
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I had to give this post some thought today. I never thought I'd see the day when we decided the K5 had unacceptable noise at ISO 800, lol. I've got to say I think Sandy is right on, there is some camera movement and the scene isn't metered properly.

I think your best bet would be to work on your workflow before buying a new camera. The K5 is light years ahead of the K10D, especially when it comes to higher ISO. And yet many of us used it to shoot professionally back in the day. Here's a more recent shot from the K10D at ISO 800 with the DA 35 2.4, handheld at f/2.8 and 1/200. I knew the lighting was terrible, but white balance was part of my post workflow. The K5 could have done a much better job, if I'd had it with me at the time.


07-15-2017, 06:08 PM - 1 Like   #33
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You really need to shoot DNG/RAW if you are going to push your K-5 to 800 ISO. The Pentax JPEG engine is rather poor at handling noise and sharpening at ISO 800.

The K-1 is a significant upgrade over the K-5. ISO 800 on the K-5 is better than ISO 100 on a Canon 5DIII in terms of DR and how much you can pull out of an image with a loss in quality. Your Tamron 70-200mm lens is actually a great lens for portraits. The build quality and AF are sort of average, but optically it is an excellent value for the money. The K-1 with a D-FA* 70-200mm is simply an excellent combination.
07-15-2017, 06:49 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
You really need to shoot DNG/RAW if you are going to push your K-5 to 800 ISO. The Pentax JPEG engine is rather poor at handling noise and sharpening at ISO 800.
I shoot in RAW, but export from LR as JPEG.

---------- Post added 07-16-17 at 11:54 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
I *think* her eyes are in reasonable focus, but the image is too small, the ISO too high and a hand held head shot is not an appropriate test.
Thanks Sandy,
Beautiful shots May I ask your shutter speed for these?

As for the ISO being too high, what else would you suggest? I couldn't lower my f-stop on that lens (2.8 is the widest). SS was 1/100 - can you still get sharp shots below 1/100 using a tripod when shooting people? According to my EV meter on top, that ISO with that SS and f-stop was exposed correctly.

I will try the things you have suggested and see how I go.
Thanks again.

07-15-2017, 06:54 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by halonp Quote
I shoot in RAW, but export from LR as JPEG.
OK. The picture you posted you said SOOC which I assumed to mean "Straight Out Of Camera" meaning it was shot as a JPEG.
07-15-2017, 07:04 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by twilhelm Quote
The K5 is light years ahead of the K10D, especially when it comes to higher ISO. And yet many of us used it to shoot professionally back in the day. Here's a more recent shot from the K10D at ISO 800 with the DA 35 2.4, handheld at f/2.8 and 1/200. I knew the lighting was terrible, but white balance was part of my post workflow. The K5 could have done a much better job, if I'd had it with me at the time.


The K10D was the first Pentax camera I owned

I guess I need to figure out how to get clean, sharp images in low light. I'm fairly confident with off-camera lighting, but for certain events I simply can't use off-camera flash in all situations.

I know this isn't technically great, but I know I can achieve sharp(er) photos using flash (this was just one off to the left + a reflector).
ISO100
ss 1/160
f1.7
Pentax 50mm


My problem is low light and noise - and more importantly, nailing my focus.

---------- Post added 07-16-17 at 12:05 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
OK. The picture you posted you said SOOC which I assumed to mean "Straight Out Of Camera" meaning it was shot as a JPEG.
Oh, sorry, I mean as in untouched or edited. (Or does converting to JPEG count as being edited?)
07-15-2017, 07:17 PM   #37
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The K-5 AF module really only works at F/5.6 so if you are shooting at a faster aperture the K-5 AF is not very consistent. The K-3 was the first Pentax camera to focus at F/2.8. Moving to a K-3/K-3II or KP will improve you AF accuracy at wide apertures under low light. The 24MP sensor without AA filter is very sharp and the noise is a very fine grain. The 24MP sensor takes noise reduction software very well. Have you tried NIK image processing software https://www.google.com/nikcollection/products/dfine/ ? Its free and all of the software does a great job. Define 2 noise reduction software is very good. DxO also does an excellent job processing RAW files with its Prime Noise Reduction, but its not free.

Great portrait by the way.


Last edited by Winder; 07-15-2017 at 07:22 PM.
07-15-2017, 07:26 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The K-5 AF module really only works at F/5.6 so if you are shooting at a faster aperture the K-5 AF is not very consistent. The K-3 was the first Pentax camera to focus at F/2.8. Moving to a K-3/K-3II or KP will improve you AF accuracy at wide apertures under low light. The 24MP sensor without AA filter is very sharp and the noise is a very fine grain. The 24MP sensor takes noise reduction software very well. Have you tried NIK image processing software Google Nik Collection ? Its free and all of the software does a great job. Define 2 noise reduction software is very good. DxO also does an excellent job processing RAW files with its Prime Noise Reduction, but its not free.

Great portrait by the way.
Thanks Winder,
No, I haven't tried NIK, Define 2 or DxO - but I'll add them to my growing list of things to check out/do.
And yes, I often shoot wider than F/5.6 so that's helpful to know about the K5 AF in low light.
Thanks again.
07-15-2017, 07:52 PM - 1 Like   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by halonp Quote
Thanks Winder,
No, I haven't tried NIK, Define 2 or DxO - but I'll add them to my growing list of things to check out/do.
And yes, I often shoot wider than F/5.6 so that's helpful to know about the K5 AF in low light.
Thanks again.
Pentax K-5 II / IIs Review - Autofocus | PentaxForums.com Reviews

It looks like the K-5II also has the upgraded AF.
07-15-2017, 07:56 PM   #40
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And these were taken on my Tamron - 28-75

Both shot at:
F3.2
SS 1/160
with 1 off-camera flash.

ISO for this one was 400. (SOOC {shot as RAW, exported as JPEG} and the edited version).
Was aiming for a 'moody' image. Slightly underexposed though. Edited version appears to have more noise, I didn't do any noise reduction during editing though.



Iso for this one was 800. (SOOC {shot as RAW, exported as JPEG} and the edited version.)
Again underexposed. I know I can do better given opportunities to correctly pose and light sufficiently, but for some wedding receptions and indoor events I can't always use my off-camera flash. And slowing my SS, opening my aperture and bumping up my ISO usually results in either blurred images (from SS being too low), out of focus (from wide aperture and movement) and lots of noise/lack of detail (from high ISO.)




I know I can do better given opportunities to correctly pose and light sufficiently, but for some wedding receptions and indoor events I can't always use my off-camera flash. And slowing my SS, opening my aperture and bumping up my ISO usually results in either blurred images (from SS being too low), out of focus (from wide aperture and movement) and lots of noise/lack of detail (from high ISO.)

Another question, how exactly does exposure compensation work if you're shooting in M? I didn't think you could set exposure compensation if you are shooting in M.
I'd always thought it was better to shoot at a lower ISO and brighten in editing rather than correctly expose (by raising your ISO only) and risk getting noisy images.
But then I see photos like Brooke's with settings like:
ISO3200
f4
1/320
shot with the K5
and they look beautifully sharp and smooth, so I know it must be possible

---------- Post added 07-16-17 at 12:57 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote

It looks like the K-5II also has the upgraded AF.
OK, thanks.

---------- Post added 07-16-17 at 01:28 PM ----------

One last comparison...
This photo was taken in the EXACT same spot as the 1st file I shared.
Both taken on my Tamron 70-200mm

Both shot at:
F2.8
1/160

This was at 4:58pm in Spring with an ISO of 200.


This one was taken at 4:20pm in Winter with an ISO of 800.


The only difference was seasons (I know winter is darker, so I bumped up my ISO) but given I'd photographed here before without need of flash, I thought I could just bump up my ISO and produce similar results.
Also I did get the older girl to tilt her head up to get better lighting in some of the other photos.
07-15-2017, 09:13 PM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by halonp Quote
May I ask your shutter speed for these?
All the EXIF details are in flickr if you click on the images.
07-15-2017, 09:40 PM - 1 Like   #42
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If you're going to increase the exposure in post-processing you might as well just increase the ISO, because up to ISO 3200 you should get less noise that way (as opposed to low ISO and then increasing it in software). You can even try it out as an experiment. You can shoot in Av mode which would be easier, and use the ISO range limiting feature in case you don't want to go past a certain number.
07-15-2017, 09:53 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by automorphism Quote
If you're going to increase the exposure in post-processing you might as well just increase the ISO, because up to ISO 3200 you should get less noise that way (as opposed to low ISO and then increasing it in software). You can even try it out as an experiment. You can shoot in Av mode which would be easier, and use the ISO range limiting feature in case you don't want to go past a certain number.
Thanks Automorphism,
I'll try it out and compare my results.
07-16-2017, 05:10 AM - 1 Like   #44
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My K-5 had horrible auto-focus in artificial lighting, and bad focus in low light. AF Adjust could not help. I believe you are experiencing the same issues.

Some of your exposure choices seem off. I suggest a simple check on your technique. Choose your camera settings, then shoot the same photo in Green mode, to see what the camera programming elects to do. You should be able to do better than Green Mode consistently. If not, you can take a tip from the Green mode settings.

PS I like with the suggestion above to use TAv instead of M-mode in natural light. The K-5 should produce acceptable images up to ISO 3200, no problem, with a bit of noise reduction and assuming correct focus.

I rescind that advice however if you use P-TTL flash. P-TTL is terrible when used with auto ISO. With flash, I select an appropriate ISO and aperture, and let the camera determine shutter speed (Av with manual ISO). If I'm worried about motion blur, I use X-mode instead of Av. I trust Pentax metering to expose well enough that i can fine-tune in raw without excessive noise or clipping.

Last edited by audiobomber; 07-16-2017 at 05:32 AM.
07-16-2017, 03:25 PM   #45
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OK, how's this test.

All shot using a tripod.
Also used a shutter trigger to avoid movement.
Focus set on Tinkerbell sticker on vase.
All exposed according to meter on camera top.
Auto, Manual and 2 TAv images.

Image 1:
AUTO
ISO3200 F2.8 SS1/60
Full and cropped image.



Image 2:
MANUAL
Exact same settings as above. (ISO3200 F2.8 SS1/60)



Image 3:
TAv
F3.2 SS1/125 ISO3200



Image 4:
TAv
F2.8 SS1/160 ISO3200

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