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12-17-2017, 01:16 AM - 3 Likes   #16
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I am so confused!

QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
I love my SLR and DSLR, but EVF mirrorless is undeniably the future. Perhaps not any time soon for Pentax, but other manufacturers have certainly taken notice.
Why is EVF "undeniably" the future??

Exactly what is wrong with seeing the world for real rather than using virtual reality?

Pentax has some of the finest optical viewfinders available in any slr camera and all anyone wants to do is dump it for second best.

I am so confused.

12-17-2017, 01:50 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
I love my SLR and DSLR, but EVF mirrorless is undeniably the future. Perhaps not any time soon for Pentax, but other manufacturers have certainly taken notice.
Tell Nikon that mirrorless is the future; it's their past.
The future is here today, and it's called a mobile or cell phone.
I remember when 110 film 'was the future' and then disk film and then APS-C Advantix film.
We live in a world of choices: Horses, gas or diesel, hybrids, or electric. Same with cameras and as long as their is love of vinyl records, polaroids, and SLRs, there will be a niche economy for everyone that isn't asking Seri, Alexa, or Cortana to take the photo for us.
Do you know how many different kinds of commercially produced pinhole cameras are now on the market?
12-17-2017, 11:18 AM   #18
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Actually I would rather see a K-1 II (or drop the baffling double number designation and call it the K-1a) rather than a K-2 (or whatever) full frame come out sooner rather than later. The camera really only needs a few tweaks and updates like maybe a few years newer processor plopped in it to help compensate for processing intensive image corrections before it writes the image to the card.
That would allow them to essentially reuse everything and just put faster chips and tweaked software into the current assembly line. Some of the external control choices are a bit odd to me as well but having not owned one yet (definitely soon though) I can't say how I would feel about them long term, and again that's mostly just button labeling and software since the locations are fine.
EDIT: Larger top LCD would be lovely as I use that more than the viewfinder displays or back screen (which I leave off) when changing settings, and that would require major design changes to move controls, so something to add to the next full redesigned model.

I do hear some noise about it being slightly behind on video features, but its neither a gopro (which are much cheaper and do an amazing amount) nor a proper interchangeable lens digital video camera so its not really worth a lot of effort to pack in those features unless its mostly just software.

I really don't want a higher MP sensor as unless you are crop crazy and need the pixel density its just numbers for marketing purposes, the raw file sizes are already getting so stupid huge that I am going to have to pick up a second hard drive.

P.S. I despise EVF mostly for battery reasons, running a screen and a sensor full time is not very efficient.

Last edited by PPPPPP42; 12-17-2017 at 11:34 AM.
12-17-2017, 12:59 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Tell Nikon that mirrorless is the future; it's their past.
CaNik are both rumoured to be releasing FF mirrorless in 2018,both want to hang onto their user base and $$$ony have taken some of their customers.

---------- Post added 12-18-17 at 07:07 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Leumas Quote
4. X-trans sensor:
Now this is probably a total impossibility
1/2/3 have some merit....but where on earth did this one come from?Theres more chance of Samsung or TowerJazz providing a sensor.

12-17-2017, 01:14 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
CaNik are both rumoured to be releasing FF mirrorless in 2018,both want to hang onto their user base and $$$ony have taken some of their customers.

---------- Post added 12-18-17 at 07:07 AM ----------



1/2/3 have some merit....but where on earth did this one come from?Theres more chance of Samsung or TowerJazz providing a sensor.
If they do go FF Mirrorless, they're gonna be in the same boat that Sony was in when they went mirrorless: having a new mount, they'll have their customers waiting for a long time for the f2.8 trinity & fast primes to come out, and even longer for 3rd party options.
12-17-2017, 01:51 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
they'll have their customers waiting for a long time for the f2.8 trinity & fast primes to come out
Probably not, the canon M series is supported by cheapish AF adapters for the EF mount.I cant see it being any different with a FF mirrorless.
12-17-2017, 02:25 PM   #22
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It's all been said before, elsewhere in the Forums as well as in this thread, but the success of the K-1 shows that having a substantial existing lens lineup is the most economical way (and probably the only way, for a small brand like Pentax) to introduce a new ILC body. That means a Pentax ILC mirrorless or, as has been said elsewhere, hybrid body must have the K-mount to succeed as a 35FF or APS-C offering.

A lot of effort was put into the Q series, only to have it gradually peter out, and that had to have a new lens system, because of its small sensors. To the contrary, and in my opinion, not enough market research was put into the K-01 before it was released for sale, where its existing K-mount lens catalogue failed dismally to overcome buyer resistance to its radical styling, functional limitations and price. Where there may be some common ground is that the Q might have done better if it had incorporated an EVF, and the styling of the K-01 would have different with an EVF, and possibly have been changed enough to overcome the aesthetic challenge to some potential buyers.

On the other hand, I have a Fuji X-30 as well as a Q, and the Q wins hands down for IQ and flexibility, while the X-30 wins on compactness and convenience (it has an EVF). So, if there was to be a Pentax mirrorless without the K-mount, I'd make it a compact fixed zoom lens model with an EVF, but that would probably make it a Ricoh.
12-17-2017, 02:45 PM   #23
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Leumas:

1. Mirrorless K mount are a great idea, but not for a top of the line camera. Call it K-02 or K-S3 something like that in stead and give it APS-C.
2. I'm not convinced AF would be better, but the features are diferent and highly subjective what people prefer. Same with OVF vs EVF. That is why the mirrorless camera should have an OVF sibling.
3. Shure, let med emphasise 4K 60p HDR and full resolution at 8+ fps 12 bit. This would also improve pixel shift delay.
4. No thanks. ISO performance may seem better, but its really a compromise where you loose resolution and software compatibility. In my opinion the loss are bigger then the gains.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The subject of a FF Pentax mirrorless has been chewed on over and over and over on this site. The salient points remain:

Would be silly to do with K-mount, requiring a new mount
If done, it would be years before lens support would be adequate (witness how long it took Sony to spin up)
Mirrorless AF sucks, even with available on-sensor PDAF
Battery life
Might be more appropriate for medium format
Your point no. 2 kills your solution to your point no. 1. It would be silly to start with a new lens mount.

On sensor PDAF are slower then off sensor PDAF, but more presice. When sensor resolution increases, we need more presicion.


Last edited by Simen1; 12-17-2017 at 03:05 PM.
12-17-2017, 04:22 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Interesting...As an avid manual focus user, I find that available EVF are inferior, in my experience.



It took me five minutes with the A7 to say no in 2014 and even less time with the A7II in 2017. I guess that qualifies as refutation.

The subject of a FF Pentax mirrorless has been chewed on over and over and over on this site. The salient points remain:
  • Would be silly to do with K-mount, requiring a new mount
  • If done, it would be years before lens support would be adequate (witness how long it took Sony to spin up)
  • Mirrorless AF sucks, even with available on-sensor PDAF
  • Battery life
  • Might be more appropriate for medium format
There is a reason why Sony and Leica are the only players in this space.


Steve
Interesting.
I'd have to disagree with some of those points.

1. Why would it be silly to use K-mount? I think it would be silly NOT to use it, as like you said, a new mount takes too long for lens support, and disenfranchises your existing user base
2. Autofocus sucks? Everything I've read about the latest mirrorless cameras, i.e. X-T2, EM1 Mark II, A9 etc; those cameras are all reported to have superb auto-focusing that is far ahead of Pentax. Now some of the cheaper/older ones did indeed have crap auto focus, but those days are over.
3. Battery life? While the Sony camera's are known for crap battery life, others like the Fuji are known for exceptionally long battery life. I know someone who did over 1200 shots on a single charge.
So again, not an inherent mirrorless issue

And I believe the A7 and A7II aren't the best examples of a great EVF. I totally understand that there are bad EVF's out there.

---------- Post added 12-17-17 at 05:25 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
I love my SLR and DSLR, but EVF mirrorless is undeniably the future. Perhaps not any time soon for Pentax, but other manufacturers have certainly taken notice.
I agree.

---------- Post added 12-17-17 at 05:28 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
CaNik are both rumoured to be releasing FF mirrorless in 2018,both want to hang onto their user base and $$$ony have taken some of their customers.

---------- Post added 12-18-17 at 07:07 AM ----------



1/2/3 have some merit....but where on earth did this one come from?Theres more chance of Samsung or TowerJazz providing a sensor.
Honestly, just thinking of ways they could differentiate themselves from the competition, and X-trans came to mind. From my understanding it's software compatibility isn't as much of an issue anymore, and I love how it resolves color artifacting moire and the like.

---------- Post added 12-17-17 at 05:36 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
Why is EVF "undeniably" the future??

Exactly what is wrong with seeing the world for real rather than using virtual reality?

Pentax has some of the finest optical viewfinders available in any slr camera and all anyone wants to do is dump it for second best.

I am so confused.

The ways OVF can't compete with a good EVF are:

  • No black out. this can help tremendously in subject tracking.
  • Real time exposure preview, removing the need for "chimping", and better ability to see in low light, as well as with slower lenses.
  • Real time focus and highlight peaking. I love this feature with live view on my K-1, but there are many times I wish I could use the viewfinder.


---------- Post added 12-17-17 at 05:39 PM ----------

I'm still waiting for more people to chime in with things they'd like to see on the next FF

Last edited by Leumas; 12-17-2017 at 04:30 PM.
12-17-2017, 05:08 PM - 2 Likes   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
Why is EVF "undeniably" the future??

Exactly what is wrong with seeing the world for real rather than using virtual reality?

Pentax has some of the finest optical viewfinders available in any slr camera and all anyone wants to do is dump it for second best.

I am so confused.
There's nothing wrong with an optical viewfinder. The same way there's nothing wrong with shooting film. They're both excellent things. I still own and shoot a film SLR and obviously a DSLR with an optical viewfinder which I likewise enjoy shooting very much. However, these facts do not preclude the other fact that EVF has been advancing far beyond what OVF can provide at its best. EVF allows a great deal of tools for manual focusing that OVF in a DSLR does not. For example: various focus peaking methods, zooming in several times, digital split image focus (Fujifilm). Another lovely thing that EVF provides is the ability to see the live histogram, the usefulness of which cannot be overstated.

EVF is not virtual reality any more than a digital photograph is virtual reality. The image viewed in the EVF is what the sensor is seeing through the lens. I have absolutely no issue using the rear screen on my Pentax Q-S1. Why should I be bothered by an EVF, which is essentially the same thing, but for eye-level usage?

You may not care for EVF, but they are certainly not a gimmick, they've truly come a long way.
12-17-2017, 07:15 PM - 3 Likes   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Leumas Quote
I'm still waiting for more people to chime in with things they'd like to see on the next FF
The perennial request is for a minimalist FF SLR in a more compact package. Think something like the below, with AF as an optional module. Think Epson R-D1, though as an SLR.



High magnification viewfinder is on the wish list as are focus aids.


Steve
12-17-2017, 07:18 PM - 2 Likes   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
For example: various focus peaking methods, zooming in several times, digital split image focus (Fujifilm). Another lovely thing that EVF provides is the ability to see the live histogram, the usefulness of which cannot be overstated.
You realize, of course, that all of those except for magnified live view to 1:1 are simulations, right?

QuoteOriginally posted by adjutant Quote
The image viewed in the EVF is what the sensor is seeing through the lens.
No, not quite; it is a highly compressed and massaged version with contrast and color balance far different than even the JPEG capture.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 12-17-2017 at 07:24 PM.
12-17-2017, 07:21 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Do you know how many different kinds of commercially produced pinhole cameras are now on the market?
At least a dozen and several more endeavors that simply make apertures and zone plates.


Steve
12-17-2017, 08:31 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The perennial request is for a minimalist FF SLR in a more compact package.
That lacking, something like a K-1L ("L" for Light):
  • 24 Mpx FF optimized for low noise and dynamic range
  • Lower price point than K-1
  • Fixed LCD or tilt only
  • Next gen SR (Ricoh has several recent patents)
  • More petite than K-1
  • No flash, no astrotracer to help accomplish above
  • Higher magnification viewfinder, if possible


Steve
12-17-2017, 10:33 PM - 1 Like   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
At least a dozen and several more endeavors that simply make apertures and zone plates.
Steve
Thanks Steve; yes I know. I was just trying to make the point that just because mirrorless is hot right now, doesn't mean DSLRs are doomed and who would have thought 100 years ago that in the 21st century more pinhole cameras would be sold commercially than any other time in the history of photography. B&H alone sells 40 different pinhole cameras.
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