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09-10-2018, 08:37 AM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I don't understand why the photos should be better or worse, since we are talking about user-interface only. "Better" arguments are purely personal opinion.
That's your personal opinion, other personal opinions may differ and be just as accurate and relevant..

If you're going to argue for a MILC, surely you have to have more than a personal opinion based on no definable criteria.
I tend to look at criteria like easier to use. For my viewfinder I want to see the subject. That is the primary function of the viewfinder. The Pentax OVF gives me information relevant to exposure, level etc. the opinion of the MILC crowd is it's worth sacrificing low light performance for added information. Yet I have trouble comprehending why I need that information.

In the discussion of MILC, my only question is, why would I pay for that? One of our forum members , who I totally trust uses an A9 instead of a K-1 for weddings. But he still likes his K-1 for other things. So my question would be "what is in it for me?"

If we aren't talking about that, as far as I'm concerned we aren't talking about anything but personal preference. Most on the forum made our decision to buy a camera with a mirror. We voted with our wallets. Next time we buy cameras we may see it differently. But, last time it took less than 15 minutes to determine EVF wasn't what I wanted for a view finder.

It was a step down in what i want from a view finder. Barely adequate by my standards. You can pass that off as personal preference, but it's that preference that MILC has to overcome to grow. Pleasing the`current fans for whom MILC works now for isn't going to grow MILC. It has to be better.

I doubt those of us who grew up on hand held light meters are ever going for MILC. We know how to function without much tech built into the cameras and won't want to change our optical work environment. I think a lot of youngsters grew up in doors on electronic devices as oppose to being out in the real world. Maybe they'll like MILC. I have trouble envisioning people like myself going for it. Especially if it just changes, but doesn't improve my working environment or IQ.

In my mind there is one issue. EVF seriously degrades in low light, especially with slower glass. OVF doesn't. That's not opinion, that's fact. At least it was 4 years ago, and I haven't heard different recently.

When I got my K-1, there was simply no MILC camera that gave me anywhere the value my K-1 did, and don't even try and do the 20 MP Canon or 24 MP Sony is just as good. That blows your credibility right there.

Why am I wrong in thinking MILC is nothing more than big bucks for less IQ for those of us who shoot a lot of landscape and wildlife? To me it seems to be money wasted on un-necessary frills. That's personal opinion. But it's an opinion MILC needs to change if it's going to grow.

Pentax themselves said, "it's not there yet". They are a conservative company. I have trust they represent my conservative values, in camera preferences.

Everyone wants to talk about Pentax doing MILC, no one seems to want to talk about what MILC has to do better to attract Pentax users. This should be a two way discussion. It's clearly the discussion taking place at Pentax, and their verdict. is "MILC isn't there yet." Apparently Sony standards are a bit lower.


Last edited by normhead; 09-10-2018 at 10:05 AM.
09-10-2018, 09:15 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well on this list....

The World?s Largest Public Companies List

Ricoh is currently #1205 and some years ago it was in the top 500. Ricoh has some trouble of their own. So throwing money in a camera venture to see what sticks is not on their agenda.
I am pretty certain Ricoh's business decision to purchase Pentax wasn't to throw some money at it to see what sticks. Ricoh has over 100,000 employees and is one of the largest companies in the world evidence by your link to the Forbes list.
09-10-2018, 09:49 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
I am pretty certain Ricoh's business decision to purchase Pentax wasn't to throw some money at it to see what sticks. Ricoh has over 100,000 employees and is one of the largest companies in the world evidence by your link to the Forbes list.
It is pretty clear that Ricoh is wanting to diversify. The copier business is not what it used to be and certainly if they can expand lines like the Theta and improve camera sales, it will help them hedge against further declines in the copier business.
09-10-2018, 10:30 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's your personal opinion, other personal opinions may differ and be just as accurate and relevant..

If you're going to argue for a MILC, surely you have to have more than a personal opinion based on no definable criteria.
I tend to look at criteria like easier to use. For my viewfinder I want to see the subject. That is the primary function of the viewfinder. The Pentax OVF gives me information relevant to exposure, level etc. the opinion of the MILC crowd is it's worth sacrificing low light performance for added information. Yet I have trouble comprehending why I need that information.
I'm not arguing for or against anything - other than for facts and truth. I'm hearing lots of opinions dressed as "truth" when what people are really saying is 'my experience is most valid'. I have never used a camera equipped with an EVF - although I'm quite certain that a EVF-equipped "Q" would be easier to use than my Q-7 is - but sometimes I repeat what I hear from MILC advocates because I feel that their views - not strawmen put up by OVF advocates - should be heard.

09-10-2018, 11:17 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
I am pretty certain Ricoh's business decision to purchase Pentax wasn't to throw some money at it to see what sticks. Ricoh has over 100,000 employees and is one of the largest companies in the world evidence by your link to the Forbes list.
Ricoh bought Pentax in 2011. That was about on the top of the market for camera's. Since then sales in camera's globally has been slashed to half of that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is pretty clear that Ricoh is wanting to diversify. The copier business is not what it used to be and certainly if they can expand lines like the Theta and improve camera sales, it will help them hedge against further declines in the copier business.
The camera business of Ricoh-Imaging keeps on shrinking over the past years. They not yet found a way to stop that (other then a single good quarter).

At the start Ricoh-Imaging (not yet using that name) was about 2 % of total sales of Ricoh. Now 7 years later the camera business has shrunk to be only 1 % of global sales of Ricoh.

Printing and copieing is loosing sales to the paperless world and in that same time camera's are loosing their ground fast to smartphones. Not the world Ricoh was hoping for, but it is reality.
09-10-2018, 11:39 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I anticipate we will see one or two of these threads a week for the foreseeable future.
As we have for much of the last several years. Same claims, same rebuttals, same fantasies, same recalcitrance.


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09-10-2018, 11:53 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm hearing lots of opinions dressed as "truth" when what people are really saying is 'my experience is most valid'.
Truth is that the Sony product gives me vertigo. Truth is that I don't find focus peaking, dynamic range blinkies, DOF simulation,* or brightness simulation helpful. Truth is that EVFs have improved.

My opinion is that EVFs have not improved enough. My opinion is that they and non-SLR cameras are fine and appropriate to task. My opinion also is that there are few tasks were either are uniquely superior. The combination of truths and my opinions combine to make my attitude toward new product announcements for MILC somewhat jaded.

One more truth...I might be seriously interested in a low tech medium format digital mirrorless.


Steve

* DOF in the EVF display is computer simulation and may actually be more accurate than that in an optical viewfinder where DOF is often exaggerated due to low magnification.


Last edited by stevebrot; 09-10-2018 at 11:58 AM. Reason: completeness
09-10-2018, 12:14 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Truth is that the Sony product gives me vertigo. Truth is that I don't find focus peaking, dynamic range blinkies, DOF simulation,* or brightness simulation helpful. Truth is that EVFs have improved.

My opinion is that EVFs have not improved enough. My opinion is that they and non-SLR cameras are fine and appropriate to task. My opinion also is that there are few tasks were either are uniquely superior. The combination of truths and my opinions combine to make my attitude toward new product announcements for MILC somewhat jaded.

One more truth...I might be seriously interested in a low tech medium format digital mirrorless.


Steve

* DOF in the EVF display is computer simulation and may actually be more accurate than that in an optical viewfinder where DOF is often exaggerated due to low magnification.

Consider that the EVF user is giving up an optical viewfinder to get a redundant LiveView screen.
09-10-2018, 02:17 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Consider that the EVF user is giving up an optical viewfinder to get a redundant LiveView screen.
Not redundant if conditions make the LV difficult to hold or view.
09-10-2018, 02:29 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The copier business is not what it used to be and certainly if they can expand lines like the Theta and improve camera sales, it will help them hedge against further declines in the copier business
If camera sales and profits increased 10 fold it would not even start to make a dent in what Ricoh is losing out on in the copier business. Ricoh's camera business is minuscule.

https://www.ricoh.com/IR/financial_data/financial_result/data/fy2019/p_1q.html
09-10-2018, 02:39 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by pschlute Quote
If camera sales and profits increased 10 fold it would not even start to make a dent in what Ricoh is losing out on in the copier business. Ricoh's camera business is minuscule.

Financial Data > Financial Results | Global | Ricoh
In a thread somewhere, someone pointed out where Rich is going with their investment to make up for the decline is copiers. It wasn't cameras.
09-10-2018, 02:49 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Ricoh bought Pentax in 2011. That was about on the top of the market for camera's. Since then sales in camera's globally has been slashed to half of that.

The camera business of Ricoh-Imaging keeps on shrinking over the past years. They not yet found a way to stop that (other then a single good quarter).

At the start Ricoh-Imaging (not yet using that name) was about 2 % of total sales of Ricoh. Now 7 years later the camera business has shrunk to be only 1 % of global sales of Ricoh.

Printing and copieing is loosing sales to the paperless world and in that same time camera's are loosing their ground fast to smartphones. Not the world Ricoh was hoping for, but it is reality.
Their current CEO has recognised and acknowledged that, hence the changes in his time in the job. However, if you look at the detail of their current quarterly report, you get a less pessimistic view of the future for cameras, although it is grouped under “Other” products:
“Sales in the Other segment decreased by 0.5%, as compared to the previous corresponding period, to ¥44.6 billion. While the semiconductor business sell-offs caused a decrease in sales, due to improvement of profitability relating to industrial optical components/modules and cameras, operating profit in the Other segment increased by ¥0.4 billion, as compared to the previous corresponding period, to ¥0.4 billion.”

Now, there’s nothing that can be directly read from that in relation to any individual item in the Other segment, aside from the fact that their semiconductor business was losing money and is now divested.

Elsewhere, you find that the copier business is being reshaped, with less emphasis on stand-alone paper copiers and indications of a move to business imaging inputs that don’t necessarily rely on paper, plus a new 3D-printer business whose market is still small but probably growing. Ricoh is now in the growth phase (styled “Ignite” in their strategy) of their change program, so I wouldn’t be too pessimistic about their prospects.
09-10-2018, 02:56 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Not redundant if conditions make the LV difficult to hold or view.
Add in the caveat that the conditions make an OVF impossible to use and you have hit on the perhaps one in a thousand situations where the EVF is not redundant.
09-10-2018, 03:00 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Add in the caveat that the conditions make an OVF impossible to use and you have hit on the perhaps one in a thousand situations where the EVF is not redundant.
My percentage is some what higher, but our styles are different.
09-10-2018, 05:17 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Printing and copieing is loosing sales to the paperless world and in that same time camera's are loosing their ground fast to smartphones. Not the world Ricoh was hoping for, but it is reality.
I'm not so sure of that. The part about what they were expecting. We have used Ricoh copiers at our office as long as I've been there. They are well aware of 'paperless' and have an entire suite of solutions that cover scanning, storing and retrieving documents digitally. I got a several hour demo of the system and while it was more (and more expensive) than we need I was impressed.

The demo was in 2013 I think. I made a comment at the time about them buying Pentax. The reply was that they were very excited by this because of a number of technologies Pentax had for optical scanning related to document storage. Now the people I was talking with were 'business solution' people, not camera people so I've no idea if what they said had any validity. They seemed to only vaguely understand that Pentax was a camera. Their focus was on document handling. But Ricoh is well aware of the marketplace for their core products and view themselves as far more than a 'copier' company.
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