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09-02-2018, 07:56 PM - 1 Like   #1
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Is Pentax in the need of a M/L system?

Sony and now Nikon, Canon and Panasonic are beting to the FF mirrorless system some with all their chips and the otherones with a reasonable gamble, but the thing here is that they know that something is cooking there... and it makes me wonder if by not having a competent M/L camera (im not talking about the Q system or the K-01 ) will hurt Pentax in the future?? it makes me think back in time when the film era was switching into the digital and some great manufactures just got stock in time and could not get into the new game on time and eventually almost desappear, IMO for Pentax the fact of not having a FF camera by the time Canon and Nikon lauched their first digital FF cameras hurt the brand, and by not having it for such a long time hurt the brand even more if we see it in a marketing/commercial point of view, ofcourse for Pentax things were not that easy because all the the owners change including the Hoya "black hole" and all the history that we know..

But looking forward from now on, I just wonder if the mirrorless systems will be the next change in the game? will all makers start switching to this within the next years, I bet that they will not stop to make DSLRs the next year, the same as manufactures did not stop making film cameras when the first DSLRs came to the market.. but eventually they did... but, how bad will be the change? and how bad will not having a good mirrorless camera hurt Pentax? will this market "hit" be a knock out for our beloved brand? Im not talking if DSLRs are better than mirrorless or the other way... but just in a general point of view, we can't deny that something is going on, and big manufactures knows about this, and are betting.


Last edited by kooks; 09-02-2018 at 08:22 PM.
09-02-2018, 08:12 PM - 1 Like   #2
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Probably not. Ricoh seems very satisfied to stay a niche player and just make and sell good cameras without a lot of hype. I see where you are going with this but like I've said before this is not a soccer match. "Our" team does not have to win, just stay in business and make money. Nothing Pentax can do is going to move it up to the sales level of the big three. So they won't try, just make good cameras that sell to people who want what they make.


Will Pentax eventually (within the next 20 years) make a MILC? Probably, but don't hold your breathe. Everything we have seen indicates they are 100% focused on the DSLR and K-mount. If they are still making cameras in 10 years then maybe they will think about working on MILC.
09-02-2018, 08:21 PM   #3
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Who care, probably not
09-02-2018, 09:14 PM - 1 Like   #4
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What does fuel economy have to do with cameras?

Oh wait, this is Yet Another "Why Doesn't Pentax Get On The Mirrorless Bandwagon" thread. Moving on....

09-02-2018, 10:01 PM - 2 Likes   #5
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What Pentax needs is a smaller, lighter camera. If mirrorless is the best way to get the size and weight down (while keeping the APS-C sensor size), then so be it. But they could also make a smaller, lighter dSLR if they wanted to.

The FujiX-Forum has MANY members who came to Fuji mirrorless cameras because they don't want to lug around their big heavy Canon, Pentax or Nikon dSLR kits anymore. Some Fuji-X forum members sold their dSLR gear to pay for their new Fujis - others kept some of their old dSLR kit, but they are now spending their money on Fuji gear.

Other potential benefits of the mirrorless design are: fewer moving parts, quieter operation, no front-focus/back-focus issues, and WYSIWYG electronic viewfinders. The downsides of mirrorless designs are shorter battery life - due to the electronic viewfinders - which also tend to be smaller and fussier to use compared to optical viewfinders. For me, the tradeoff is worth it.

A lot of people mention Pentax as a "niche" player, but I don't see why their niche should not include a travel camera which is somewhat discreet, smallish, and lighter in weight, built around the APS-C sensor. I really don't care if it has a mirror or not.

Back in the film era, Pentax agressively marketed the MX and other "M" series cameras and lenses as smaller, lighter and more compact than the competition, so to me, that was part of their niche, and still should be. <see old MX advertisement, click here>

Last edited by runswithsizzers; 09-02-2018 at 10:06 PM.
09-02-2018, 10:33 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Is Pentax in the need of a M/L system?
If you are concerned about the sustaining of your K mount glass, worrying about Pentax not doing mirrorless is a contradiction. Why is that a contradiction?
Usually, the motive for having Pentax staying afloat is to be able to keep using the lenses you already own without having to spend money again into another system such as Canon, Nikon etc. That's why you're concerned by Pentax staying alive. Now, if you ask for Pentax to make a mirrorless with a different lens mount, that's basically equivalent for asking to switch systems, in that case, you should not give a damn and move to whatever brand you like. So, you're thinking logic is screwed.

The other possible reason for this post is envy. Brand A, B, C are doing that, why Pentax does not do the same?
You seem to be extremely sensitive to marketing media and social compliance, I suggest you get a Canon system so that you'll feel like being part of the main "sheep herd".

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-02-2018 at 10:44 PM.
09-03-2018, 12:21 AM - 2 Likes   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
If you are concerned about the sustaining of your K mount glass, worrying about Pentax not doing mirrorless is a contradiction. Why is that a contradiction?
Usually, the motive for having Pentax staying afloat is to be able to keep using the lenses you already own without having to spend money again into another system such as Canon, Nikon etc. That's why you're concerned by Pentax staying alive. Now, if you ask for Pentax to make a mirrorless with a different lens mount, that's basically equivalent for asking to switch systems, in that case, you should not give a damn and move to whatever brand you like. So, you're thinking logic is screwed.
The new Canon and Nikon mirrorless systems have (apparently fully functional) adapters to mount their existing SLR lenses. A user only needs to buy 1 adapter.

This means that these new cameras can be used a stand-alone new cameras, or as complements to existing cameras from those companies. Both the companies and their users can make the transition at their own pace. If users even choose to make the transition at all.

If Ricoh/Pentax provided a mirrorless mount & cameras, I would expect them to provide a suitable adapter. (If they didn't, they would indeed alienate existing users).
09-03-2018, 12:37 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
The new Canon and Nikon mirrorless systems have (apparently fully functional) adapters to mount their existing SLR lenses. A user only needs to buy 1 adapter.
Ok, what's the point of buying a smaller camera and adding an adapter to it? I've see the Canon EF/R adapter, it's huge. Offering a lens mount adapter to customers is the same as smoking the bee hive before harvesting honey..
if you see what I mean :-). Customers will anyhow end-up having to buy new lenses to benefit from the smaller size of their new mirror-less camera (which is one of the main argument for people getting a mirrorless system as opposed to getting a DSLR).


Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-03-2018 at 12:48 AM.
09-03-2018, 02:29 AM - 2 Likes   #9
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Ricoh simply doesn't have enough punch and too little consumer electronics experience to successfully go mirrorless. They would need to cooperate, but with whom? The electronic giants Panasonic and Sony have their own camera systems. JVC has become a marginal player. Samsung, we all know how that went... LG well they made a blatant much cheaper copy of the Theta, not a lot of love lost there. Ricoh has invested a lot in the K-1 and it's lens line-up, but it really came to late to the market. Now things are definitely shifting towards mirrorless. Ricoh should have developed a mirrorless full frame from the start and never the K-1 if they had wanted to play at that game. Now their only choice is to become THE dedicated dslr company, developing on its strengths. They can hope Canon and Nikon shift their focus so much on mirrorless there dslr line-ups will become neglected and Pentax will become the haven for traditional photographers, who like the OVF.

To me the attraction of mirrorless is not it's size, but the ability to manually focus with an EVF (I find myself using liveview a lot on the K-1, but it is a bit cumbersome and not fast). Also there are AF enabled adapters for mirrorless that can make any piece of ancient glass do AF.
09-03-2018, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Ok, what's the point of buying a smaller camera and adding an adapter to it? I've see the Canon EF/R adapter, it's huge.
I responded to establish the fact that introducing a new mount and system does not have to risk losing existing users of that maker's cameras and lenses.

Neither of us is able to say what proportion of existing Nikon (or Canon) users will buy their adapters.

Perhaps we will see some statistics in (say) a year or so.

(I have a Q System with 2 cameras, 4 lenses, and the K-mount to Q-mount adapter. If Pentax released a new mount suitable for larger sensors such as FF, and I found one or more of the new mirrorless cameras was good for me, I would buy such an adapter).
09-03-2018, 03:30 AM - 1 Like   #11
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It is interesting that people mention size in this thread when talking about mirrorless when Z mount and the new Canon cameras aren't particularly small and the lenses definitely aren't. Nikon's 35mm f1.8 is considerably larger than the F mount 35mm f1.8 and Canon is releasing a 3 and a half pound 28-70 f2 lens to pair with it full frame MILC. Certainly there is nothing to indicate that mirrorless cameras are smaller than SLRs -- particularly not when you include the lenses.

As to whether Pentax should come out with a mirrorless camera, I think a lot would depend on their capabilities from a specification/technical standpoint combined with whether they think their is a niche in the market they can target that isn't currently occupied by one of the big players.

Watching Canon and Nikon release mirrorless cameras is instructive as they have been attacked for what seem like relatively small things. "One card slot? This camera's a failure! No battery grip? Ditto. The auto focus isn't as fast as the auto focus on the A9..." And apparently that is what is in store for any company that decides to release a mirrorless camera versus Sony's spec monster cameras.

Pentax could do it, but probably the only people interested are the same people that would buy the next generation K-1 when it's released. Kind of pointless in that situation.
09-03-2018, 03:30 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
To me the attraction of mirrorless is not it's size, but the ability to manually focus with an EVF
Typical Pentaxian want to use his old mf lenses, don't want to spend money, as a result Ricoh does the same LoL.
09-03-2018, 03:33 AM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Typical Pentaxian want to use his old mf lenses, don't want to spend money, as a result Ricoh does the same LoL.
Nope but digital and mirrorless has opened up new dimensions in photography. Nobody in his right mind had 60 plus lenses in the film age, nowadays lots of people have. I have a lot more fun getting ten legacy lenses instead of spending my money on a new and well corrected modern piece of glass.
09-03-2018, 03:42 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
I responded to establish the fact that introducing a new mount and system does not have to risk losing existing users of that maker's cameras and lenses.Neither of us is able to say what proportion of existing Nikon (or Canon) users will buy their adapters.Perhaps we will see some statistics in (say) a year or so.(I have a Q System with 2 cameras, 4 lenses, and the K-mount to Q-mount adapter. If Pentax released a new mount suitable for larger sensors such as FF, and I found one or more of the new mirrorless cameras was good for me, I would buy such an adapter).
And you did not understand that I wanted to highlight how camera companies make customers spend a lot more money than they originally intended. The adapter is a "foot in the door" technique, it's not ethical, it's a rip-off. If customer are aware of being ripped-off and they agree with it, then it fine. However, most customer are like the pavlov dog, they respond to DPR advertising and get ripped-off by buying things they don't need at all.

---------- Post added 03-09-18 at 12:45 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Nope but digital and mirrorless has opened up new dimensions in photography.
You can use focus legacy glass with LV + focus peaking on your Pentax, can't you? Can you please explain what is the new dimension of photography with a mirrorless camera?

Last edited by biz-engineer; 09-03-2018 at 03:47 AM.
09-03-2018, 03:57 AM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
And you did not understand that I wanted to highlight how camera companies make customers spend a lot more money than they originally intended. The adapter is a "foot in the door" technique, it's not ethical, it's a rip-off. If customer are aware of being ripped-off and they agree with it, then it fine. However, most customer are like the pavlov dog, they respond to DPR advertising and get ripped-off by buying things they don't need at all.

---------- Post added 03-09-18 at 12:45 ----------


You can use focus legacy glass with LV + focus peaking on your Pentax, can't you? Can you please explain what is the new dimension of photography with a mirrorless camera?
I could probably work faster through an EVF, also I will be able to steady the camera more shooting through a VF. Mirrorless will make much more lenses available (including rangefinder lenses) for my LBA. When I bought the k-1 I also could have gotten an A7 II, but I didn't think that was good enough yet. Since then a lot has improved. I am not selling my K-1 but I might get a Nikon Z6 Sony A7 III Canon R Panasonic Whatever in a year or two or three next to it. Time will tell, prices will drop. Maybe Ricoh will surprise us yet .
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