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08-01-2019, 04:59 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Let's take a look at your kit.

645Z with 400mm lens......that compared to fullframe and 500mm lens.....When cropping to a fullframe size.

So the K-1 and 150-450mm lens will not give you more reach. The Canon option will give you faster af and some advantages, but then how many good images do you need?

So I would suggest to take a KP with the 150-450mm lens that will give you a much longer reach compared to the 645Z and your longest lens. And you can leave the longest lens for 645Z at home.

Or take a look at this bay if you want to carry the weight.
RARE! [MINT IN CASE] SMC PENTAX-A* 645 600mm F/5.6 ED IF Lens From JAPAN #C17 | eBay
Isn't the KP a smallish camera and the 150-450 a huge lens? Is the combination balanced enough? What about the lack of LCD panel on top of the KP? Also, it appears that the camera buttons on the body of the KP and the camera menu are totally different from he 645Z.

As regards the KP, is the 1.4X rear converter suitable on the camera or will it cause substantial image degradation while using the 150-450 lens?

The 600mm will be too heavy. I would rather take the zoom.

08-01-2019, 06:22 AM   #17
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You can see everything on the back screen that a top LCD will show.
08-01-2019, 07:52 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
There are not really a large sampling of Pentax examples available on the web. I thought these were appropriate in terms of focusing and tracking. If you can catch an owl in flight, you should pretty much be able to catch just about anything moving, regardless the target, environment and setting. Yes, there is a difference in FPS, but again if you are judicious in shooting, you should be good.

The K70 and KP are reasonably close to the K1 in terms of dynamic range (especially with the Accelerator chip). The K70 and KP would provider higher FPS too.The APS-c will certainly get you closer, plus the 1.4x TC will work very well with both the bodies and the lenses.
_____

The 645z, K1 and K5 all have pretty much the similar pixel pitch. The K70 and KP each have a finer pixel pitch, and thus will provide a slightly better resolution across the sensor.


Thank you. Will check. The photonstophoto.com link is really informative.

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 08:03 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Ole Quote
The K-1 with a 450 mm lens has more reach than the 645Z with 400mm. Just as the KP will have even more reach with the 450mm.

The difference between the K-1 and the K-1 II is marginal. I myself prefer the K-1 "classic" - for one thing the battery lasts longer.

The 36MP resolution allows for tight cropping if needed.

Avoid shutter speeds with the K-1 or K-1 II in the range 1/90s - 1/180s due to blur introduced by shutter vibration. Most/all FF camreas of any brand seems to suffer from this. An APS-C body doesn't exhibit this issue (at least it isn't at a noticable level).
Thanks Ole. The K1 II has the following "extra stuff". Does it not make much difference in real world shooting?

- Better high ISO performance (important for low light).
- New Pixel Shift Resolution System

Thanks for the important suggestion on the shutter speed.

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 08:30 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
I think if I had the money and was purely using the system for wildlife, I'd have to go for the Canon - the 645Z can do everything else beautifully, but focusing speed and tracking can make or break a wildlife shot - and I'd probably throw in a 1.4x converter as well - Canon converters seem to be very good. That's from a lifelong Pentax user, but you have to be realistic.
I truly appreciate your frank admission. I guess somewhere deep down, we all agree that the Canon has an edge. But to repeat again....I am NOT looking for birds in flight. Just animals in the natural habitat, in their own social environment. I intend to be deliberate in my photography and not trigger-happy. If I make just one image worth showing to others in seven days, I will be happy. I just don't want to take reportage kind of pictures.

So maybe AF speed is not so much important. But "reach"' is certainly important. And 'buffer' is important. And I would like to photograph less, but if I get a great moment to photograph in an evolving interesting situation, a moment which affects me at a deeply emotional level, I want to photograph it through a glass and shutter that doesn't compromise on quality....just that one image is what I am looking for :-)

For balance of the time, I wish to sit around in the vehicle and watch the world with my Pentax binoculars :-) No frantic shooting of whichever animal comes around :-)

That said, an APS-C Canon with 100-400 with the 1.4X thrown in will give a great reach through a good glass but at a pretty high price. And which APS-C? Will my old Canon 50D be good enough to rise to the challenge? If yes, I will save money there and go for the 100-400 f4.5-5.6 L IS II USM Canon lens with the 1.4X converter. That will give me a reach of equivalent FOV of a 840mm lens at the longer end. That is tempting but only if the 50D is good enough to handle this lens and create good images.

Else I would rather bite the bullet and go for the KP or K3 II (if not the K1 II or K1) with the 150-450 plus the 1.4X rear converter. And if the second memory card slot is as important as it is said to be, then that pretty much seals the deal for the K3 II. It also has a better battery life. And I do not need the 819,200 ISO of the KP. I do not wish to go beyond ISO 6400 on any day.

Just to reiterate, one important reason I wish to continue with Pentax is that I dream of a day when I would be able to use the many 645 lenses I have on the K-mount Pentax with an adapter that allows AF as well as the IBIS.

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 08:38 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
Having tried wildlife, I would get the longest lens possible. If it is Pentax, K1 and 150-450 combo is not long enough. I would go with the Pentax KP and the 150-450. the KP crop factor would give you the extra reach. If it is Canon, I would get either the Sigma or the Tamron 150-600 and an APS-c Canon body. Those are the lenses you need for a safari type shooting. I tired a 400mm focal length and a full frame body and the lens was waaaaaaaay too short for wildlife. You need 600mm+ focal length.
I seem to be coming around to KP or K3 II with 150-450 plus the 1.4X rear converter, unless someone tells me that the Canon 50D I already have is good enough.

With the 50D (or say any good APS-C Canon), is it better to have the Sigma/ Tamron 150-600 or the Canon 100-400 with the 1.4X converter?

And how good is the Tamron 150-600? A lot of guys seems to be matching it to the Canon 7D in India.

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 08:41 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Leonine, check the 300mm plus Lens Club right here in this forum for superb Pentax wildlife photography.
Hi,

How do I check it? Can you pls send a link?

Wildlife in the Mara is sometimes pretty close. People say the 70-200 is for such moments. Then again, many a times, the action is far away and you need that long long lens (if you spot that action, that is :-)

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 08:48 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stemked Quote
I shot a lot of wildlife with the 150-450 and a Pentax 600mm f5.6 A. I have the K1, K3 and K5iis and usually go with the K3 for the crop factor. Remember if you crop a FF you are effectively getting fewer pixels than a APS image of the same view.

That said, if what you want to do is in flight birds, IMHO I would be looking into Sony, Nikon, or Canon. They just have better focusing systems that Pentax, I'm sorry to say. My wife has a Canon 7D and with the right lens it will catch more images of moving birds (no camera is perfect). With large birds I have no trouble catching them with the K3 and the 150-450, but small ones it is no contest.

---------- Post added 07-31-2019 at 11:39 PM ----------

PS If it IS landscapes, hands down, the K1 is the best body out there, hands down.
Hi,

As I said, I am NOT into photographing birds in flight. There is a sameness to those images and hundreds of photographers are doing that regularly.

For landscapes, I have the 645Z. K1 is outstanding for landscapes, I understand. But I need a body that is good for wildlife of the kind I have described earlier.

Also, do you mean that all things being equal, a cropped image made with K1 wont be wont be as good as same image with say K3 II? What about the crop mode of the K1 which I understand makes the Camera behave like an APS-C camera?

Last edited by leonine; 08-01-2019 at 08:32 AM.
08-01-2019, 08:53 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
I would also suggest that the KP might be better suited for your wildlife needs. It's smaller, cheaper, and provides more "reach" for a given focal length. Although I have a K-1 as well, I have found the DFA 150-450 to be a very capable and responsive combination on the KP - the AF worked fine tracking birds in flight in Antarctica, as well as other assorted wildlife on the trip.
Hi Sandy,

Great pics. I loved the one where two penguins are talking to each other. These are the kind of images that enthuse me. No head shots or a lion with a bloody mouth eating a carcass.... but a lion or a lioness snuggling with a cub, yes...that is the image :-)

The wet camera and lens.... you really do not have a problem with it? The other day I saw some guy on youtube pouring sand on a Pentax then washing it under a shower on the beach.

And between the Kp and the K3 II, why not the latter? Going by specs, the K3 II looks solid. What is it about the KP that everyone seems to like so much?

08-01-2019, 10:13 AM   #20
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@leonine, if you haven't done so already I'd recommend that you read our K-1 II vs. K-1 review. That should give you an indication of whether or not dynamic pixel shift and higher ISO are of value to your way of shooting.
08-01-2019, 10:32 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
I have shot wildlife with Pentax and Canon and overall Canon is the way to go. But for a African safari most of your shots will be of slow moving larger mammals the K1 will do just fine, if you are lucky enough to see a lion or cheetah chasing something then you will want the Canon.

If you think you will be shooting more wildlife in the future Canons lens lineup is so far ahead of Pentax, Pentax has just given up on the long lens and Sigma and Tamron don't offer their new big zooms in K mount.
Thank you. For the Cheetah chasing something, I guess I will just pan the camera the old fashioned way, get a blurry picture in the worst case and call it my masterpiece :-)
08-01-2019, 10:32 AM   #22
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Not really agreeing with some of what's been written here.
The kind of camera systems such as the Pentax K1 (or D810, or other full frame cameras with 40+ Mpixels) is that you can switch back and forth between full frame and crop mode. In crop mode at ISO800+ you get an image quality similar to what's you'd get with a Kp or K3, but you also get a very deep buffer with the K1 in crop mode (I get something like 50 crop shots before the buffer clogs on a K1, that way more than on a K3 if I remember correctly), and you get the 1.5x crop factor when you wish to get more frames per second and full coverage of AF points, and I don't think a Canon 5D can match that, except the Canon 5DSr. There is no system that can match the versatility of a high mega pixel count full frame camera: every other systems full frame 24Mp, apsc, u43 or medium format are less versatile.

For doing landscape and wildlife, you either have to carry two systems (apsc + full frame, or apsc + medium format), or carry a single full frame system with crop capability. I'd take a Pentax K1 (for the price) or a D850 or a 5DSr.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-01-2019 at 10:38 AM.
08-01-2019, 10:40 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the K-1 will work. For some reason everyone on this thread is gravitating to birds in flight although you expressly said that wasn't your interest, but showing animals in their natural habitat. For that, the K-1 and 150-450 would work nicely, but I would get a 28-105 too, or some sealed lens that covers at least a moderate wide angle.

Don't get me wrong, the 5D IV is going to be better for auto focus, I just think the K-1 and K-1 II are more than adequate for the things you would be shooting.
Thank you for putting things in perspective. No birds, just mammals :-)

Foe the wide angle part, I am carrying the 28-45, 90 and 300 lenses with the 645Z. I also have that beautiful manual focus 150mm f/3.5. But I need to reduce weight so may not take it. The landscape photography is going to be even more slow and deliberate. The 300 mm f/4 could be useful for a bit of wildlife too.

08-01-2019, 10:49 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by leonine Quote
Thank you for putting things in perspective. No birds, just mammals :-)
What happens with wildlife in general is that they sensitivity to human approach isn't related to the size of the animals but related to their eye sight, hearing, smell and how comfortable they are with human beings. That's the reason why for safari / mammals, camera makers designed lenses such as 100-400 zooms (originally, Nikon 200-400 f4 is aimed at professional safari imaging). With a 100-400 you can zoom-in / out for optimal framing. With buffalo you end-up zooming out to 200mm or less. Birding (small subjects) on the other hand, is something different that require 600mm equivalent FL and more.
08-01-2019, 11:06 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'd go with my K-3. The 8 FPS and 23 shot buffer are what I use. That and a 150-450 would be fine. Many of my own wildlife images are taken with my 60-250.
The 5D IV isa going to be better for tracking, but even shooting wildlife, I rarely find tracking is necessary.

The 5D is also better for clearing the buffer, buffer size etc., many many advantages.
If money is no object the 5D IV is the better choice.

The frustration of using a K-1 waiting for the buffer to clear is often excruciating for my style of shooting. The K-3 isn't a lot better, it just has a bigger buffer.

Over the years, I've been satires with my K-3 images....
Wildlife | Flickr
Wild-Birds | Flickr

But with money to burn, I might give a 5D a try. After all, buying one and selling it won't be a problem if you don't mind losing a bit of money and you decide it's not for you.
Dear normhead,

K3 seems to be the way to go if it is Pentax. With 150-450 and 1.4X converter. Looks like a good compromise without sacrificing quality in any way. Do you have any experience of using the 1.4X with the 150-450? Any visible image quality loss?

What would you advise me if I say that I would use my existing Canon 50D and Tamron 150-600 G2? It is available @ USD 1100 in India. The K3 with150-450 together will cost USD 3200 and the K1 with 150-450 will cost USD 3900. A Canon 5D Mk IV with the 100-400 lens and 1.4X converter will cost USD 5100 :-( So if I use the 50D with the Tamron, I will save USD 4000 and can go to Africa twice more

Is the 50D worth taking a chance with? Unfortunately, in India, it is not easy to just test the Tamron lens and return it, unless you are borrowing from a friend. From a camera shop or the company showroom, you just have to buy it.

Saw your pics of birds and wildlife on Flickr. Great work. Particularly liked the one marked 2018-01-29-park-Cross-bills-2. The bird looks angry at something. The one marked Endangered-Eastern-Red-Wolf is also awesome. Which camera-lens combinations did you use for these pictures and from approx what distances?

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 11:07 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by KiloHotelphoto Quote
You can see everything on the back screen that a top LCD will show.
Well yes

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 11:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Ole Quote
@leonine, if you haven't done so already I'd recommend that you read our K-1 II vs. K-1 review. That should give you an indication of whether or not dynamic pixel shift and higher ISO are of value to your way of shooting.
@ Ole, I will go through the comparison. Thank you.

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 11:22 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Not really agreeing with some of what's been written here.
The kind of camera systems such as the Pentax K1 (or D810, or other full frame cameras with 40+ Mpixels) is that you can switch back and forth between full frame and crop mode. In crop mode at ISO800+ you get an image quality similar to what's you'd get with a Kp or K3, but you also get a very deep buffer with the K1 in crop mode (I get something like 50 crop shots before the buffer clogs on a K1, that way more than on a K3 if I remember correctly), and you get the 1.5x crop factor when you wish to get more frames per second and full coverage of AF points, and I don't think a Canon 5D can match that, except the Canon 5DSr. There is no system that can match the versatility of a high mega pixel count full frame camera: every other systems full frame 24Mp, apsc, u43 or medium format are less versatile.

For doing landscape and wildlife, you either have to carry two systems (apsc + full frame, or apsc + medium format), or carry a single full frame system with crop capability. I'd take a Pentax K1 (for the price) or a D850 or a 5DSr.
@biz-engineer, What you have written puts a different spin on the whole discussion. The crop mode shooting mode of K1 gives 50 shots before the buffer clogs???? That is phenomenal. Why does Pentax not talk about this part of K1 in their marketing campaign? It is really surprising. Also, in a crop mode, the FOV of the 150-450 changes to 225-675, right? That is like adding a 1.4X converter to a FF camera Am I getting it right?

Also, you have given apsc + full frame, or apsc + medium format as two possible options. Why not FF like K1 in APS-C mode (for wildlife) and MF (for landscapes)?

Is there any other camera which gives this feature of shifting from FF to APS-C on a whim, or is it a typical Pentax innovation?

Thanks for these valuable inputs.
08-01-2019, 11:34 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by leonine Quote
Is there any other camera which gives this feature of shifting from FF to APS-C on a whim, or is it a typical Pentax innovation?
It's not unique to Pentax. Full frames sensors have been designed to feature cropped readouts, either for photography or video.
08-01-2019, 11:48 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
What happens with wildlife in general is that they sensitivity to human approach isn't related to the size of the animals but related to their eye sight, hearing, smell and how comfortable they are with human beings. That's the reason why for safari / mammals, camera makers designed lenses such as 100-400 zooms (originally, Nikon 200-400 f4 is aimed at professional safari imaging). With a 100-400 you can zoom-in / out for optimal framing. With buffalo you end-up zooming out to 200mm or less. Birding (small subjects) on the other hand, is something different that require 600mm equivalent FL and more.
This is a very valuable information @biz-engineer.

So if I understood your earlier post correctly, I should actually be taking the K1 and the 150-450, and use it as such, with the additional feature of switching the FOV to a 225-675 in the crop mode with the insane buffer of 50 frames.

That just seems to cover all the bases It is indeed heartening.

And there is a video which @interested_observer recommended of this nice guy Li at
. What Li says is to dive deep in the camera menu, go to Hold AF Status and change the default value to High, and maybe one's apprehensions about the Pentax autofocus not being good enough would vanish....well almost :-)

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 11:56 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It's not unique to Pentax. Full frames sensors have been designed to feature cropped readouts, either for photography or video.
That means the Canon 5D can also operate in the Crop mode? And still your K-1 can give a buffer of 50 crop frames which the 5D Mk IV cannot match even in its own APS-C mode? That is even if the 5D in FF mode has a better frame rate of 7 FPS compares to 4.6 FPS of the K1 in FF mode? This is indeed interesting? What could be the reason for this?
08-01-2019, 01:08 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by leonine Quote
I seem to be coming around to KP or K3 II with 150-450 plus the 1.4X rear converter, unless someone tells me that the Canon 50D I already have is good enough.

With the 50D (or say any good APS-C Canon), is it better to have the Sigma/ Tamron 150-600 or the Canon 100-400 with the 1.4X converter?

And how good is the Tamron 150-600? A lot of guys seems to be matching it to the Canon 7D in India.

KP is the better camera for stills. I owned two 7D Canons and the KP quality is far better. I am guessing the 50D is in the same class as 7D image wise. My 7D was fine up to ISO 400. Beyond that especially getting in the 1600 ISO and beyond, the image quality just fell apart. You have no idea what situations you are going to walk into on the safari. So KP kit will be better but pricier. The 50D and Tamron or Sigma combo will be cheaper since you already own the 50D. If this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, then bring the camera that is going to get you the best image. BTW, you have to think about weight too. Adding a 645Z with lenses is going to be a lot. If it were me (given my age and wanting to travel light)... and how good the KP is, I would probably bring the KP with a few lenses and leave the 645Z home!
08-01-2019, 01:14 PM   #29
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Keep in mind that with Pentax 150-450mm and 1.4x TC you may loose the af. There are cameras with af points sensitive to f8 that can also track moving subjects, but those cameras are expensive.
08-01-2019, 01:23 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
KP is the better camera for stills. I owned two 7D Canons and the KP quality is far better. I am guessing the 50D is in the same class as 7D image wise. My 7D was fine up to ISO 400. Beyond that especially getting in the 1600 ISO and beyond, the image quality just fell apart. You have no idea what situations you are going to walk into on the safari. So KP kit will be better but pricier. The 50D and Tamron or Sigma combo will be cheaper since you already own the 50D. If this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, then bring the camera that is going to get you the best image. BTW, you have to think about weight too. Adding a 645Z with lenses is going to be a lot. If it were me (given my age and wanting to travel light)... and how good the KP is, I would probably bring the KP with a few lenses and leave the 645Z home!
The high ISO performance of the 10 year old CMOS sensor 50D is nothing to write home about. I will be restricted to ISO 400. At ISO 800, I will be pushing it.

So whatever I could do with the 50D, it would be in broad daylight as the lens would be stopped down to f/8 or so for decent results and that would give a shutter of about 1/500 at base ISO. But broad daylight is also the time by which most mammals are lazy. They get into action mostly at times when the daylight isn't broad.

The cameras and lenses will be kept in the vehicle. 3 guys per a big open vehicle. Space and weight is not a constraint. The weight still needs to be reduced because after 15 kg, the flight to the Mara charges you for every kg. Besides, I am afraid that too much of gear will distract.

I expect the 28-45 or the 90 mm to be on the 645Z most of the times and one more camera with telephoto.

Perhaps, the choice is now between K1 or K3. I am awaiting some more tips and advice to a few specific questions that I have asked.

---------- Post added 08-01-19 at 01:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Keep in mind that with Pentax 150-450mm and 1.4x TC you may loose the af. There are cameras with af points sensitive to f8 that can also track moving subjects, but those cameras are expensive.
Hello Dan,

With the 1.4X TC, I will lose AF or I may lose AF?
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