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04-14-2021, 10:15 AM - 2 Likes   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Using more expensive higher specified sensor and other components in a camera and then cripple them to lower specification does not make much economical sense in manufacturing, as they can just buy cheaper lower specified components instead and save a lot of cost.
Sensors of the same size cost the same to manufacture, regardless on pixel count: silicon chip cost depends almost entirely on silicon area and number of manufacturing steps which is unrelated to pixel size. At constant DRAM, apparent buffer depth and speed of processing (image per second) just increases as much as the raw data is downsized. On the other hand, having to pay one time the R&D costs for two or three camera models is a huge saving , especially when camera sale volumes are very low. If the difference in camera resolution is made by firmware, users won't be able to tell if the sensor is the same between the 24Mpixel camera model and the 100Mpixels camera model. I'd sell a 24Mp, a 50Mp, a 75Mp and a 100Mp cameras that all have the same 100Mp sensor in them, but I'll tell my marketing department to say that it's not the same sensor in each cameras. Resolution selected by changing one parameter in firmware before compilation, that means with the R&D and tooling cost of one camera design, I can sell four different models!

04-14-2021, 10:51 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Sensors of the same size cost the same to manufacture, regardless on pixel count: silicon chip cost depends almost entirely on silicon area and number of manufacturing steps which is unrelated to pixel size. At constant DRAM, apparent buffer depth and speed of processing (image per second) just increases as much as the raw data is downsized. On the other hand, having to pay one time the R&D costs for two or three camera models is a huge saving , especially when camera sale volumes are very low. If the difference in camera resolution is made by firmware, users won't be able to tell if the sensor is the same between the 24Mpixel camera model and the 100Mpixels camera model. I'd sell a 24Mp, a 50Mp, a 75Mp and a 100Mp cameras that all have the same 100Mp sensor in them, but I'll tell my marketing department to say that it's not the same sensor in each cameras. Resolution selected by changing one parameter in firmware before compilation, that means with the R&D and tooling cost of one camera design, I can sell four different models!
You sly dog, you.
04-14-2021, 08:33 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Sensors of the same size cost the same to manufacture, regardless on pixel count: silicon chip cost depends almost entirely on silicon area and number of manufacturing steps which is unrelated to pixel size. At constant DRAM, apparent buffer depth and speed of processing (image per second) just increases as much as the raw data is downsized. On the other hand, having to pay one time the R&D costs for two or three camera models is a huge saving , especially when camera sale volumes are very low. If the difference in camera resolution is made by firmware, users won't be able to tell if the sensor is the same between the 24Mpixel camera model and the 100Mpixels camera model. I'd sell a 24Mp, a 50Mp, a 75Mp and a 100Mp cameras that all have the same 100Mp sensor in them, but I'll tell my marketing department to say that it's not the same sensor in each cameras. Resolution selected by changing one parameter in firmware before compilation, that means with the R&D and tooling cost of one camera design, I can sell four different models!
Even if they cost he same to manufacturer, Pentax would be changed a higher price for a higher specified sensor by the manufcturer.
As Pentax do not manufcturure the parts themself they will be paying a higher price for higher specified components.

But higher specified components often have a lower yeild in manufacturing, which also lead to a higher manufacturing cost. And often need new invesrments in manufacturing equipment which add to the cost.

This type of saving in R&D cost may be worth it if you sell products in a very small volume, but I doubt Pentax is there yet.

Last edited by Fogel70; 04-16-2021 at 03:12 AM.
04-16-2021, 01:21 AM   #109
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Probably the 45mpx Nikon (sony IMX309BQJ)

04-16-2021, 09:29 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Even if they cost he same to manufacturer, Pentax would be changed a higher price for a higher specified sensor by the manufcturer.
Yes, you are absolutely right, unfortunately
04-18-2021, 06:28 AM   #111
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Less order volume more price per unit
04-19-2021, 07:30 AM - 1 Like   #112
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61MP Sony sensor would be nice. Sigma FP L got one recently so it's not A7R-exclusive anymore. Pentax 4-frame PS would rule with it.

04-19-2021, 11:56 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
61MP Sony sensor would be nice. Sigma FP L got one recently so it's not A7R-exclusive anymore. Pentax 4-frame PS would rule with it.
I have been thinking about this. I went from -I'm not interested- to -It could be actually pretty nice-.

You'v got high performance with K-3III and more demanding shots with K-1III. Sure resolution would be quite big for 61 MP and demanding in many ways. But if 26 MP BSI what they now have with K-3III it is very nice based on examples we have seen. It could be even more so(someone said pixel ratio is about the same?).


So why not.
04-19-2021, 12:29 PM - 1 Like   #114
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MK3 deserves the 61MP chip. 45MP would have been nice in MK2 in 2018. I have not sold a single K-lens since getting a GFX set, 61MP MK3 would be a brutal match against GFX or 645Z. Definitely interested to do such comparison.
04-19-2021, 12:34 PM   #115
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Looking forward to that.
04-21-2021, 08:27 PM   #116
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I keep looking at mf and wondering if I can justify it to my wife or myself anytime soon))
04-22-2021, 03:42 AM - 1 Like   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
MK3 deserves the 61MP chip. 45MP would have been nice in MK2 in 2018. I have not sold a single K-lens since getting a GFX set, 61MP MK3 would be a brutal match against GFX or 645Z. Definitely interested to do such comparison.
With how good the processing is in Pentax cameras, plus the lack of OSPDAF giving a bit of extra IQ, I can imagine that a MK3 with the 61MP chip and good glass would strut all over the FF competition.

Also really looking forward to the DFA 21 (and to winning the raffle on the D FA* 50 because it's the only way I'm getting near that chunk of glass) to get some high-standards prime lens quality taste... although the 77 and 43mm Limiteds are already razor sharp and have zero issues with the 36MP chip on the K-1.
04-22-2021, 04:21 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Sensors of the same size cost the same to manufacture, regardless on pixel count: silicon chip cost depends almost entirely on silicon area and number of manufacturing steps which is unrelated to pixel size. At constant DRAM, apparent buffer depth and speed of processing (image per second) just increases as much as the raw data is downsized. On the other hand, having to pay one time the R&D costs for two or three camera models is a huge saving , especially when camera sale volumes are very low. If the difference in camera resolution is made by firmware, users won't be able to tell if the sensor is the same between the 24Mpixel camera model and the 100Mpixels camera model. I'd sell a 24Mp, a 50Mp, a 75Mp and a 100Mp cameras that all have the same 100Mp sensor in them, but I'll tell my marketing department to say that it's not the same sensor in each cameras. Resolution selected by changing one parameter in firmware before compilation, that means with the R&D and tooling cost of one camera design, I can sell four different models!
You are missing an important point.

Manufacturing techniques change as a function of reduction in size of electronics, and therefore the process is not guaranteed to be the same when doubling the pixel count (or reducing the cell size by 50%) the same is true of the micro lens manufacture over the individual sensors, which may scale somewhat linearly.
Also, you need to consider yield. As complexity goes up, yield falls, and don’t kid yourself, I am willing to bet every camera has some definable quantity of dead receptors already, so yield is important in deterring the cost.

It is not just about how much a 24x36 mm slice if silicon crystal costs.
04-22-2021, 04:39 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
You are missing an important point.

Manufacturing techniques change as a function of reduction in size of electronics, and therefore the process is not guaranteed to be the same when doubling the pixel count (or reducing the cell size by 50%) the same is true of the micro lens manufacture over the individual sensors, which may scale somewhat linearly.
Also, you need to consider yield. As complexity goes up, yield falls, and don’t kid yourself, I am willing to bet every camera has some definable quantity of dead receptors already, so yield is important in deterring the cost.

It is not just about how much a 24x36 mm slice if silicon crystal costs.
I think Biz was talking about firmware-locking pixel binning. You are essentially making the 100MP sensor only, then the 25MP chip is just doing 2x2 binning for example. Bonus points if you use different colour filter arrays to make sure nobody hacks the 100MP output of the "25MP" camera .
04-22-2021, 06:45 AM   #120
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I guess the current semiconductors shortage in electronics world would affect K-1 successor development? You can't buy a gpu anywhere close to msrp since last November..
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