[biz-engineer]

Yes, an optical viewfinder and a mirror are enough for me. Those two features are really awesome.

The optical VF yes. The mirror and shutter shock no thanks. I'd like to have the optical VF + mirror, get rid of mech shutter. I received an invitation for a touch & try of the Nikon Z8 at our local camera store , hosted by Nikon next week (on June 2nd), I'll be there to see how it handles , I'll also look at how they compare in terms of AF performance.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-25-2023 at 11:46 PM.

[James O'Neill]

The optical VF yes. The mirror and shutter shock no thanks. I'd like to have the optical VF + mirror, get rid of mech shutter. I received an invitation for a touch & try of the Nikon Z8 at our local camera store , hosted by Nikon next week (on June 2nd), I'll be there to see how it handles , I'll also look at how they compare in terms of AF performance.

I always wonder how well SR compensates for the camera's own mechanical vibration.
For a hand held shot shake from holding the camera is greater issue, and as said above if a new camera has more pixels we'll be able to see the imperfections of SR.
With the camera mounted on a tripod, timer or MLU mode take mirror slap out of the equation, and I think going all the way back the *ist-D we had a 2 second self timer which lifted the mirror at the start of the 2 seconds, and possibly this was in later film cameras. Live view and ES removes shutter shock. With a Bayer sensor making each output pixel from multiple sensor pixels a small amount of vibration is lost in the process (but for pixel-shift Ricoh used ES to remove it that and to avoid moiré we have the option to put some vibration into the process!), K3 owners have been able to find evidence of shutter shock, and with a small pixel pitch and a lighter body it would be easier to find. A FF sensor of 60MP or so might be able to detect it, but I doubt if many people will be bothered by it on many occasions.

[biz-engineer]

hand held shot shake from holding the camera is greater issue / timer or MLU mode take mirror slap out of the equation

On the K1, SR and ES are mutually exclusive, which is a bummer because the worst shutter effect is between 1/10 and 1/100 speed. Ideally, you would want to have ES to eliminate vibration and SR enabled hand held at those shutter speeds. The only way I found to avoid shake and vibration was to increase ISO, which increases noise. When using a flash, the sensor delivers amazing detail, the sharp light pulse of the flash freezes everything onto the sensor. I tried to use flash + pixel shift, but no matter how many tricks I used, I wasn't able to sync the flash to each PS exposure.

[EssJayEff]

really large prints will make people stand back, but then they will also get closer to see certain details. I see art lovers getting close to things all the time.

Exactly . . . and even more . . . a really strong image begs for closer inspection. Who just looks at a Van Gogh at proper viewing distance and then walks away without reveling more closely with the swirling brushstrokes and intermingling colors?

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Last edited by EssJayEff; 05-26-2023 at 05:47 AM. Reason: clarity

[James O'Neill]

On the K1, SR and ES are mutually exclusive, which is a bummer because the worst shutter effect is between 1/10 and 1/100 speed. Ideally, you would want to have ES to eliminate vibration and SR enabled hand held at those shutter speeds. The only way I found to avoid shake and vibration was to increase ISO, which increases noise. When using a flash, the sensor delivers amazing detail, the sharp light pulse of the flash freezes everything onto the sensor. I tried to use flash + pixel shift, but no matter how many tricks I used, I wasn't able to sync the flash to each PS exposure.

I've never fully understood why SR is disabled with ES. I know to my cost that ES also disables flash and I've never tried flash + PS

There will a set of shutter speeds where the frequency and duration of the vibration produces the biggest effect. But as someone who doesn't use live view handheld anyway, the lack of SR with ES doesn't bother me. Similarly if I can shoot with my 85 hand held at 1/25th and get usable pictures thanks to SR, I don't mind that any shake left after SR, camera vibration and the de-mosaic process all cost me a little sharpness. I guess having learned my photography with film, being able to use ISO 6400 seems like witchcraft, pictures with the 85 shot a 1/25th being usable most of the time much the same - I compare what I got on ISO 200 film with the usual "shutter >= 1/focal length" rule, I can get the same with a lot less light - 4 or 5 stops thanks to higher ISO and and 2 or 3 thanks to SR, and noticeably better in similar light (ie. Low ISO is better, I don't need to open the lens all the way to get a usable shutter etc). I've found pictures of people with the 85 at 1/25th show their movement, pictures of flowers at 1/25th show they move in the wind, so I need to be mindful of not expecting SR to stabilize the subject! I also need to remind myself that ISO 6400 is as grainy as the ISO 400 film of my youth, and it's OK to use it, and not compromise on other things to keep ISO really low.

[biz-engineer]

I've never fully understood why SR is disabled with ES. I know to my cost that ES also disables flash and I've never tried flash + PS

Simplify firmware I guess. I've used flash with ES, with the flash triggered manually, and it works, but having the flash sync with ES by the camera would require a extra firmware module (e.g if ES and shutter speed between A and B, then trigger flash after D time delay).
Same for SR + ES combined. ES is 1/4th s. exposure time, so it may not work for every subject. You may have the settings completely open, including combinations of settings that aren't working well. Ricoh have chosen to not let the user select modes that could produce bad results, probably to avoid a massive number of cameras being returned or sent to repair center because users don't understand the limitations of certain settings.

---------- Post added 26-05-23 at 17:36 ----------

Beside. For me it's astonishing that Ricoh stuck with a single FF camera model for so long, because full frame is really where the money is these days, and most new lenses released by Ricoh were full frame lenses. Since 2015/2016, Ricoh released as many as 9.5 brand new full frame lenses (if we count the 100 macro AW as a half new lens), but a single camera body design (K1II doesn't really count as a new camera). This is quite surprising knowing that camera tech usually improves faster than lens tech.

[Wheatfield]

Simplify firmware I guess. I've used flash with ES, with the flash triggered manually, and it works, but having the flash sync with ES by the camera would require a extra firmware module (e.g if ES and shutter speed between A and B, then trigger flash after D time delay).
Same for SR + ES combined. ES is 1/4th s. exposure time, so it may not work for every subject. You may have the settings completely open, including combinations of settings that aren't working well. Ricoh have chosen to not let the user select modes that could produce bad results, probably to avoid a massive number of cameras being returned or sent to repair center because users don't understand the limitations of certain settings.

---------- Post added 26-05-23 at 17:36 ----------

Beside. For me it's astonishing that Ricoh stuck with a single FF camera model for so long, because full frame is really where the money is these days, and most new lenses released by Ricoh were full frame lenses. Since 2015/2016, Ricoh released as many as 9.5 brand new full frame lenses (if we count the 100 macro AW as a half new lens), but a single camera body design (K1II doesn't really count as a new camera). This is quite surprising knowing that camera tech usually improves faster than lens tech.

The 100 macro is a new optical formula. That makes it a new lens.

[madison_wi_gal]

I just tried my rented K-1 II plus ES plus my 100 Macro and I wondered why SR was off in Live View. I decided to disable the disable SR thingie.

[Wheatfield]

For me, something that nobody talk about, about larger prints: print size has an effect on how the image look, I can't explain, but size itself convey something. It's not necessarily about details/resolution. We could print the same image as various size and ask a random group of people to answer a list of questions.

There used to me an old horse (it doesn't get out of the barn much any more), that if you can't make it good, make it big. The implication is that size will overwhelm the viewer into thinking there is something there that isn't just because of the size.

[gatorguy]

There used to me an old horse (it doesn't get out of the barn much any more), that if you can't make it good, make it big. The implication is that size will overwhelm the viewer into thinking there is something there that isn't just because of the size.

LOL! I've done that with old photo reproductions for large prints, off the top of my head up to approx. 6x4 feet, going to sports bars and restaurants. The originals usually but not always looked ok, but you can imagine how they blowup. Yet the client loves'em.

[EssJayEff]

It also used to be that making large prints was one way artists and other professionals could distinguish their work from others using cell phones and lower megapixel cameras. That, too, may have passed.

[pschlute]

It also used to be that making large prints was one way artists and other professionals could distinguish their work from others using cell phones and lower megapixel cameras. That, too, may have passed.

I agree. The MP race has ended.

The future is perhaps a succession of lower MP DSLR cameras, but combined with a few years subscription to "super resolution" software.

[HoundFrog]

I see art lovers getting close to things all the time.

I absolutely do that. I was staring once at a 3x4 meters painting from Prado collection for a good 20 minutes. It was depicting Spanish Armada sets sail, viewed from the sea, and the author kept the details of the croud on the promenade (in far distance). The faces were 1x1mm but they had eyes, noses etc. Fascinating.

[biz-engineer]

I absolutely do that. I was staring once at a 3x4 meters painting from Prado collection for a good 20 minutes. It was depicting Spanish Armada sets sail, viewed from the sea, and the author kept the details of the croud on the promenade (in far distance). The faces were 1x1mm but they had eyes, noses etc. Fascinating.

That's around 192 million dots, although most areas of the painting don't have fine details, while in some areas represent important details , as you described.

[HoundFrog]

That's around 192 million dots, although most areas of the painting don't have fine details, while in some areas represent important details , as you described.

Yes, and finding them is such a joy