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01-21-2021, 12:15 PM - 1 Like   #84481
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
It's not pretty, but I think that stainless steel skin is going to be very practical. And the specs... (For the 4x4 model)

0-60 MPH <2.9 SECONDS
RANGE 500+ MILES (EPA EST.)
DRIVETRAIN TRI MOTOR ALL-WHEEL DRIVE
STORAGE 100 CU FT
VAULT LENGTH 6.5 FT
TOWING CAPACITY 14,000+ LBS
AUTOPILOT STANDARD
ADAPTIVE AIR SUSPENSION STANDARD
GROUND CLEARANCE UP TO 16"
APPROACH ANGLE 35 DEGREES
DEPARTURE ANGLE 28 DEGREES
Don't forget the bulletproof windows.


01-21-2021, 12:33 PM - 1 Like   #84482
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OK, so I was discussing cars batteries, not phone batteries. apparently you're no familiar with them or you'd understand what I'm talking about. It's easy to research on line. The cooling units for those batteries exist now, A few companies chose o leave them out of their designs to reduce the initial cost.

So what we are talking about is a problem with an off the shelf solution being compared to solid storage of hydrogen which is under development. Here's the thing, you will probably find out what the problems are with solid storage after it's be put into practice. With batteries, the parameters are already established.

Many of the studies I've seen talking about waste from batteries ignore recycling options and pretend there will never be recycling for car batteries. You can always manipulate available data to prove a point.
AFAIK Tesla uses solid fin-type heat sinks, not water cooling, and their stuff is still ridiculously expensive. Water-cooling a car-sized battery also has a bunch of technical challenges, although it's certainly possible.

Battery recycling is not happening any time soon, unfortunately. Dendritic Li is a pain to deal with, and considering that easy recycling of common stuff doesn't take place nearly as much as it should, technically demanding recycling is... debatable.
01-21-2021, 12:46 PM - 1 Like   #84483
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
One vibe I pick up from the average guy around here in my burg, is a sense that a number of people think that 'fueling' an EV will be cheaper than gas...which by the way has gone up due to additional carbon taxes. I do believe in the old demand and supply ...where more demand on supply usually ends up being more money to pay for the supply. I would hazard the guess that once EV has taken over, maybe before, the cost of consumer electricity will rise. Maybe I'm just cynical.
There's lots of talk that "the grid" won't cope with the additional demand of all the electrical vehicles. But, consider this: If you need 50kW to charge an electrical car to 80% charge. In the mean time, earlier in the evening, everyone in the street cooked dinner with their fancy new induction hob cookers which use 7.5kW. The simple reality is that the grid has enormous spare capacity at night so, if people charge while they sleep it likely will not make any difference to the supply capability issue.

Also, "nuclear" is a dirty word here. More than 80% of our electricity supply is from renewable sources, whether that be wind, hydro or geothermal. But, we do pay for that. Our electricity prices are 75% more expensive than the US.
But even so, it still costs very little to "fill" an electrical vehicle. Maybe $10. And electrical vehicles have very little maintenance compared to a regular car. I'd love to buy one once the prices come down a bit. Also, with the reduction in costs of solar panels it's only a matter of time before we're all making our own electricity so the need for extra generation may actually decline rather than increase.
01-21-2021, 12:48 PM - 2 Likes   #84484
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QuoteOriginally posted by mkgd1 Quote
Don't forget the bulletproof windows.
https://youtu.be/LMWwImDX3ks
Yeah, that was a bit of a fail.

01-21-2021, 12:55 PM - 2 Likes   #84485
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QuoteOriginally posted by gaweidert Quote
I actually loathe those windmill abominations upon the land. Inefficient, high maintenance and a much shorter lifespan than first indicated. Not to mention the high toll they take on avian wildlife.
I've seen reports of the supposed high toll on birdlife. Yet, I've been in plenty of wind farms and I've never seen a single dead bird. The nice thing about wind is that it blows at night.
We have some giant wind farms. Amazing machines.
01-21-2021, 12:56 PM   #84486
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Car battery fires...
HD PENTAX-D FA 150-450mmF4.5-5.6ED DC AW Super-telephoto Zoom Lens for DSLR Cameras State-of-The-Art Optical Technology High-Resolution Images Free of Flare and Ghost Images All Weather Construction: Amazon.ca: Camera & Photo

…By all indications, electric car battery fires remain infrequent occurrences, even compared to gasoline and diesel fires. But they get attention because electric vehicle technology is still considered relatively new."

Recovery procedures or car batteries are well under way, how difficult it is will be moot once plants are set up.
Where 3 Million Electric Vehicle Batteries Will Go When They Retire - Bloomberg

Fins are not the only viable cooling system. The cooling system in most of the car fires have been system that are available off the shelf, car companies chose not to install them to reduce purchase cost. The necessary systems are absolutely developed and available off the shelf. They were not surprisingly developed with the batteries.
01-21-2021, 12:59 PM - 2 Likes   #84487
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
There's lots of talk that "the grid" won't cope with the additional demand of all the electrical vehicles. But, consider this: If you need 50kW to charge an electrical car to 80% charge. In the mean time, earlier in the evening, everyone in the street cooked dinner with their fancy new induction hob cookers which use 7.5kW. The simple reality is that the grid has enormous spare capacity at night so, if people charge while they sleep it likely will not make any difference to the supply capability issue.

Also, "nuclear" is a dirty word here. More than 80% of our electricity supply is from renewable sources, whether that be wind, hydro or geothermal. But, we do pay for that. Our electricity prices are 75% more expensive than the US.
But even so, it still costs very little to "fill" an electrical vehicle. Maybe $10. And electrical vehicles have very little maintenance compared to a regular car. I'd love to buy one once the prices come down a bit. Also, with the reduction in costs of solar panels it's only a matter of time before we're all making our own electricity so the need for extra generation may actually decline rather than increase.
Assume now that there are 1 million EVs in Spain charging at night (Spain has 33 million cars) at 50 kW.
The total power draw is 50 GW on a country that peaks at 40 GW on a 45C day with air conditioning at full blast.

It *is* possible with sequential power management, but it's still a logistics nightmare.

Also, what kind of hobs fired by Satan himself do you guys have?? Most apartments in Spain don't have more than 5.5kW of installed power, and that's for big flats, many places are on 4!

01-21-2021, 01:05 PM - 2 Likes   #84488
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
I've seen reports of the supposed high toll on birdlife. Yet, I've been in plenty of wind farms and I've never seen a single dead bird. The nice thing about wind is that it blows at night.
We have some giant wind farms. Amazing machines.
Same here, when they started installing the turbines near Shelbourne Ontario near where I used to live I went to a number of locations looking for dead birds and testing for EM pollution. I found no dead birds, and the Gauss levels below a tower were half the levels of the high voltage power lines going from the road to the barn.(The birds actually sit on those wires.)

All I can think is I would have found more dead birds during the migration, (a very high percentage of birds die during migration, so even if some birds do die, you'd still have t determine the death toll from the migration increased with windmills, you may be finding birds that would have died in any case.) but for myself, I was happy to prove my own suspicion wrong. I was thinking of a broadside for the local paper supporting local anti-wind groups. My own personal conclusion after comparing this literature to what I found and measured, their case was greatly exaggerated.

My conclusion was the whole problem of wind towers could be solved by buying out the people who react negatively to EMFs (and there are very few of them). However of course, no one listens to me. I've yet to see evidence birds are an issue that involved actual science.

Based on my limited research... this is the thing, I'd have to agree with these guys.
Wind farms are hardly the bird slayers they're made out to be. Here's why

I regularly used to contribute to environmental assessment through the public response portals. It took me about 6months to cross wind power off my "risk" list.

Last edited by normhead; 01-21-2021 at 01:15 PM.
01-21-2021, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #84489
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Oh boy, wind power in Spain can get very political quickly. More or less every ex-president since Franco has ended up as a "consultant" of the board of one of the handful of now-private energy corps... With lovely results.

---------- Post added 01-21-21 at 01:14 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Car battery fires...
HD PENTAX-D FA 150-450mmF4.5-5.6ED DC AW Super-telephoto Zoom Lens for DSLR Cameras State-of-The-Art Optical Technology High-Resolution Images Free of Flare and Ghost Images All Weather Construction: Amazon.ca: Camera & Photo

By all indications, electric car battery fires remain infrequent occurrences, even compared to gasoline and diesel fires. But they get attention because electric vehicle technology is still considered relatively new."

Recovery procedures or car batteries are well under way, how difficult it is will be moot once plants are set up.
Where 3 Million Electric Vehicle Batteries Will Go When They Retire - Bloomberg

Fins are not the only viable cooling system. The cooling system in most of the car fires have been system that are available off the shelf, car companies chose not to install them to reduce purchase cost. The necessary systems are absolutely developed and available off the shelf. They were not surprisingly developed with the batteries.
Norm, I'm not saying that batteries are a massive fire risk. They are still *a* risk, though, particularly with the environment.

When we cannot even recycle freaking aluminum, which is ridiculously easy AND has plants set up, the cost and difficulty of recycling batteries is absolutely not a moot point: batteries are fairly cheap already. Recycling will not really lower the cost, it's *exclusively* for environmental concern, and that means it will not happen nearly to the extent it should.
01-21-2021, 01:18 PM   #84490
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
is absolutely not a moot point: batteries are fairly cheap already.
In your opinion. We have an excellent system for lead acid set up, where the cost of recycling is paid for up front when you purchase the battery. $10 a battery, recycling companies draw on that fund to help pay for costs. A similar system will be set up for electric car batteries. It may cost a lot more, but the recycling will be accomplished.
01-21-2021, 01:21 PM   #84491
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
In your opinion.
Just for the record; one of my ongoing projects at work is for improving the durability of some battery components in electric cars*, because you basically have to throw the entire thing out after 6-7 years.


Lead acid is not only environmentally harmful, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Li-ion and Li-pol batteries are much less critical, which is why I have my doubts. Lead acid batteries are also much smaller AND easy to take care of. You won't get a $10 dollar cost for the lithium battery recycling.

Anyway, this all started because I made a tongue in cheek comment about everything exploding if you try hard enough, ooops


*No, I can't say which manufacturer .
01-21-2021, 01:26 PM   #84492
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Just for the record; one of my ongoing projects at work is for improving the durability of some battery components in electric cars*, because you basically have to throw the entire thing out after 6-7 years.


Lead acid is not only environmentally harmful, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Li-ion and Li-pol batteries are much less critical, which is why I have my doubts. Lead acid batteries are also much smaller AND easy to take care of.

*No, I can't say which manufacturer .
Well, we'll have to differ on that.Talk to me in 5-10 years, we'll see which one of us is right.

People recycle whole cars, the idea car batteries from electric cars will prove to be too difficult to recycle is extremely suspect. Our battery program is run by the province. it doesn't matter whether these batteries can be recycled in Spain, They will be recycled here.
01-21-2021, 01:30 PM   #84493
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Well, we'll have to differ on that.Talk to me in 5-10 years, we'll see which one of us is right.

People recycle whole cars, the idea car batteries from electric cars will prove to be too difficult to recycle is extremely suspect. Our battery program is run by the province. it doesn't matter whether these batteries can be recycled in Spain, They will be recycled here.
Well I sure hope it's you who is right, some days I get tired of being cynical
01-21-2021, 01:56 PM - 2 Likes   #84494
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
but my understanding was that Beta was the superior technology, but VHS got the better PR ...for some reason and took over..
Beta was better. What killed it was Sony's "Mine. Mine. All mine" approach. They wouldn't license it to anyone else so JVC and two others (I don't remember who) developed the VHS format and let anyone license the rights to it.
01-21-2021, 02:16 PM - 2 Likes   #84495
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Beta was better. What killed it was Sony's "Mine. Mine. All mine" approach. They wouldn't license it to anyone else so JVC and two others (I don't remember who) developed the VHS format and let anyone license the rights to it.
The first VCR we had was a Sony Beta. It was a remote control, but the remote control had a long cord that was connected to the VCR. I had to watch out that I didn't trip over the wire and do myself a mischief, but on the other hand I never misplaced that Sony Beta remote control. If I did lose it, I just had to go the VCR and follow the cord to the remote control.

To my eye, the Beta machine recorded better copies than our first VHS VCR. It was a pretty good machine. I think we may still have it downstairs in the storage room as we had copied some TV shows back then, that we thought we might want years later.

A former work colleague ended up marrying a woman from South America and they lived down there for a number of years. Before he left Canada, he taped a number of NHL Hockey games and Rocky & Bullwinkle TV shows. That was all, as this was TV, that as a Canuck he felt he couldn't live without, and he doubted whether it he could get it in sunny South America.

He would just watch these shows over and over. Hockey and Rocket J. Squirrel and Bullwinkle the Moose, never get old, do they...
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