This is how RAW HDR could work.

Vicboy · 10-11-2013, 05:49 AM

I've tried to research whether the K-3 really does RAW HDR, I'm still confused about it.

Anyway, a way to do this is to use Magic Latern's Dual ISO hack.

Magic Lantern gives 14 stops of DR to Canon 5D Mark III with dual ISO recording
(A comment explains that this is done by interlacing a line of ISO 100 with a line of ISO 1600.)

Dual ISO - massive dynamic range improvement (dual_iso.mo)

All done through the sensor meaning you can have RAW output and motion in the picture.

A partnership with Magic Lantern would be awesome though.

JohnBee · 10-11-2013, 06:01 AM

The idea of making DSLR's control available to android devices is a very exciting prospect.
As for RAW HDR, I didn't find any of the examples posted in your link very exciting in terms of image fidelity, though I'm confident this could be improved with time.

Ishpuini · 10-11-2013, 06:06 AM

Ricoh has 4 pages with details on the K-3's features on its site. On the third page there's the following information on in-camera HDR (my highlights):

Quote:

HDR shooting
to assure worry-free handheld shooting

The K-3’s HDR (High Dynamic Range) function takes a set of three images at three different exposure levels, then picks properly exposed areas from the original set to synthesize a single, wide-gradation image. Since the K-3 automatically compensates for slight misalignment of the composition among the original images,** you can take advantage of this convenient function even during handheld shooting. You can also save the original images in the RAW format,. Since you can store them as a single RAW-format file, you can easily locate them for subsequent data redevelopments.

** The automatic position adjustment function may not yield the desired effect under certain conditions, including excessive misalignment of the three images, certain lens focal lengths and particular subject patterns.

I would conclude from this that in-camera HDR itself is still JPG-only, but that you can opt to have the camera save the three images used to generate the in-camera JPG as separate RAW images in one file? Though I wonder how PP software would interpret that file? Or perhaps they just mean the images can be stored as a single file each? I.e. the same as bracketing, but more automated (and limited to 3 images).

Wim

Vicboy · 10-11-2013, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by JohnBee

The idea of making DSLR's control available to android devices is a very exciting prospect.
As for RAW HDR, I didn't find any of the examples posted in your link very exciting in terms of image fidelity, though I'm confident this could be improved with time.

i imagine that people will be able to do better than the samples.

This for example feels real. They say dynamic range is increased by using Dual ISO.

Yeah, I agree that full manual on phones would be awesome, but Magic Lantern is more than that.

I think they even made a GND simulation by separating the sensor's light sensitivity into two parts (ISO).

**jeffshaddix** · 10-11-2013, 06:56 AM

Why couldn't they just superimpose the shots and increase the bit depth? E.g., take each 14bit pixel value, and use some not so complicated logic to boost it to 16bits, 20bits, or 24bit, etc..

rawr · 10-11-2013, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Vicboy

This for example feels real.

Sigh. Posting a 5800x3800 px 7MB JPEG in a thread, when a 800x600 125kb JPEG would probably do the job just as well in illustrating your point ....

jogiba · 10-11-2013, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by Vicboy

I've tried to research whether the K-3 really does RAW HDR, I'm still confused about it.

Anyway, a way to do this is to use Magic Latern's Dual ISO hack.

Magic Lantern gives 14 stops of DR to Canon 5D Mark III with dual ISO recording
(A comment explains that this is done by interlacing a line of ISO 100 with a line of ISO 1600.)

Dual ISO - massive dynamic range improvement (dual_iso.mo)

All done through the sensor meaning you can have RAW output and motion in the picture.

A partnership with Magic Lantern would be awesome though.

Two big problems, the K-3 does not do RAW HDR and Magic Lantern does not work with Pentax cameras.

IchabodCrane · 10-11-2013, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by jeffshaddix

Why couldn't they just superimpose the shots and increase the bit depth? E.g., take each 14bit pixel value, and use some not so complicated logic to boost it to 16bits, 20bits, or 24bit, etc..

Multi-exposure images can be stored as RAW files by Pentax cameras so I imagine the new HDR function of the K-3 piggy backs on this ability.

jogiba · 10-11-2013, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

Multi-exposure images can be stored as RAW files by Pentax cameras so I imagine the new HDR function of the K-3 piggy backs on this ability.

Stored on memory cards for you to do PP like all the other cameras that shoot RAW and not like the in camera HDR modes in Pentax DSLRs that take three jpeg images.

You Tube

dbh · 11-03-2013, 05:27 PM

I'm trying to figure out the in camera HDR features of the K-3. I took a series of shots of the living room with the bright snowy day visible through the window in the background. I took an HDR-3 mode capture and a regular non-HDR photo.
The HDR-3 mode produces a dramatic effect on the camera display, but loaded into Lightroom, the DNG looks identical to the non-HDR image. It is however 83MB vs 29MB so there is definitely more in the file!
I installed the DCU 5 that came with the camera on my laptop and took a look at the HDR-3 capture in that. The preview showed the HDR image that I saw on the camera display but doing a save-as with processing produced a jpg which looked again like the non-HDR image.
I did not the manual to be much help.
I'm guessing there are 3 differently-exposed images stored in the HDR-3 DNG file somewhere and that the preview was created during the processing done by the camera.
Still working on it...

ArneTorp · 11-04-2013, 04:12 AM

Originally posted by dbh

I'm trying to figure out the in camera HDR features of the K-3. I took a series of shots of the living room with the bright snowy day visible through the window in the background. I took an HDR-3 mode capture and a regular non-HDR photo.
The HDR-3 mode produces a dramatic effect on the camera display, but loaded into Lightroom, the DNG looks identical to the non-HDR image. It is however 83MB vs 29MB so there is definitely more in the file!
I installed the DCU 5 that came with the camera on my laptop and took a look at the HDR-3 capture in that. The preview showed the HDR image that I saw on the camera display but doing a save-as with processing produced a jpg which looked again like the non-HDR image.
I did not the manual to be much help.
I'm guessing there are 3 differently-exposed images stored in the HDR-3 DNG file somewhere and that the preview was created during the processing done by the camera.
Still working on it...

When I make HDRs in PP the initial 32-bit floating TIFF looks like no HDR and I have to lift the shadows and lower the highlights to get a good image. But since the image file has a lot of information in these areas the result is very good - not like if there was no HDR. Could it be that the info is there but you just have to tweak it in Lightroom to see it?

**StigVidar** · 11-04-2013, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by dbh

It is however 83MB vs 29MB so there is definitely more in the file!

Is it possible to have a look at a HDR DNG file?

If so, you can upload it to Opplasting av filer

**wizofoz** · 11-04-2013, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by rawr

Sigh. Posting a 5800x3800 px 7MB JPEG in a thread, when a 800x600 125kb JPEG would probably do the job just as well in illustrating your point ....

This is for Adam and the mods... Isn't it possible to limit the uploads to the regulation forum size? I'm getting a bit tired of huge files causing my web pages to resize so that I cannot read the text without taking some action. It can't be that hard guys.....

dbh · 11-04-2013, 08:02 AM

To follow up...
I discovered a few things on this topic. The DCU v5 software that is included with the K-3 has two "Save As" functions and I chose the wrong one, i.e. the "Save As with processing". The "Save As" function saves the in-camera-generated HDR. This one disappears if you go into "Laboratory" mode. This program also has a function to split the raw file into the 3 embedded raw files captured by the camera. You could use those in whatever 3rd party s/w you like to use to make your HDRs. This splitting function also disappears when you enter Laboratory mode.

The camera itself lets you "develop" the HDR to a JPG or TIFF file, including applying different settings (WB, distortion correction, HDR mode, etc.) when you do so and choosing which SD card to use for the copy. I don't believe there is a 4th raw HDR file inside the DNG along with the original 3. My hunch is that the preview file is created by the camera processor, and is recreated by it when you develop in-camera to TIFF or JPG.

When loading the DNG, Adobe apparently sees the first of the embedded raw captures, i.e. the normal exposure, in all its 14-bit original glory.

Also when setting up for an HDR, the main recording menu lets you choose the EV steps to use, but the quick setting on the info screen does not as far as I could see.
I have yet to try the HDR feature with a flash.

wahid_satu · 11-04-2013, 09:50 AM

I looked at the site and the forum referred to by the OP and couldn't find any explanations regarding 14 stops of DR. If it is the same as DXO then shouldn't the K-5, K-50, K-500 and other Pentax dslrs that use the 16MP sensor able to do the same at ISO100 or lower? I mean DXO DR values for that sensor is at least 13 stops, topping out at 14 something stops for the K-5 series. I thought we can just use average metering on a scene so that no area is over exposed, capture it using raw, pull up the dark areas at PP, and there you have it. I think I've seen K-5 shots here that are originally pitch black still able to show decent image after PP.

Or am I missing something?

10-11-2013, 05:49 AM	#1
Vicboy Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40	This is how RAW HDR could work. I've tried to research whether the K-3 really does RAW HDR, I'm still confused about it. Anyway, a way to do this is to use Magic Latern's Dual ISO hack. Magic Lantern gives 14 stops of DR to Canon 5D Mark III with dual ISO recording (A comment explains that this is done by interlacing a line of ISO 100 with a line of ISO 1600.) Dual ISO - massive dynamic range improvement (dual_iso.mo) All done through the sensor meaning you can have RAW output and motion in the picture. A partnership with Magic Lantern would be awesome though.

10-11-2013, 06:06 AM	#3
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Ricoh has 4 pages with details on the K-3's features on its site. On the third page there's the following information on in-camera HDR (my highlights): Quote: HDR shooting to assure worry-free handheld shooting The K-3’s HDR (High Dynamic Range) function takes a set of three images at three different exposure levels, then picks properly exposed areas from the original set to synthesize a single, wide-gradation image. Since the K-3 automatically compensates for slight misalignment of the composition among the original images, you can take advantage of this convenient function even during handheld shooting. You can also save the original images in the RAW format,. Since you can store them as a single RAW-format file, you can easily locate them for subsequent data redevelopments. The automatic position adjustment function may not yield the desired effect under certain conditions, including excessive misalignment of the three images, certain lens focal lengths and particular subject patterns. I would conclude from this that in-camera HDR itself is still JPG-only, but that you can opt to have the camera save the three images used to generate the in-camera JPG as separate RAW images in one file? Though I wonder how PP software would interpret that file? Or perhaps they just mean the images can be stored as a single file each? I.e. the same as bracketing, but more automated (and limited to 3 images). Wim Last edited by Ishpuini; 10-11-2013 at 06:11 AM.

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10-11-2013, 06:01 AM	#2
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	The idea of making DSLR's control available to android devices is a very exciting prospect. As for RAW HDR, I didn't find any of the examples posted in your link very exciting in terms of image fidelity, though I'm confident this could be improved with time.

10-11-2013, 06:09 AM	#4
Vicboy Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40 Original Poster	Originally posted by JohnBee The idea of making DSLR's control available to android devices is a very exciting prospect. As for RAW HDR, I didn't find any of the examples posted in your link very exciting in terms of image fidelity, though I'm confident this could be improved with time. i imagine that people will be able to do better than the samples. This for example feels real. They say dynamic range is increased by using Dual ISO. Yeah, I agree that full manual on phones would be awesome, but Magic Lantern is more than that. I think they even made a GND simulation by separating the sensor's light sensitivity into two parts (ISO).

10-11-2013, 06:56 AM	#5
jeffshaddix Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,473	Why couldn't they just superimpose the shots and increase the bit depth? E.g., take each 14bit pixel value, and use some not so complicated logic to boost it to 16bits, 20bits, or 24bit, etc..

10-11-2013, 08:30 AM	#6
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Vicboy This for example feels real. Sigh. Posting a 5800x3800 px 7MB JPEG in a thread, when a 800x600 125kb JPEG would probably do the job just as well in illustrating your point ....

10-11-2013, 09:27 AM	#7
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by Vicboy I've tried to research whether the K-3 really does RAW HDR, I'm still confused about it. Anyway, a way to do this is to use Magic Latern's Dual ISO hack. Magic Lantern gives 14 stops of DR to Canon 5D Mark III with dual ISO recording (A comment explains that this is done by interlacing a line of ISO 100 with a line of ISO 1600.) Dual ISO - massive dynamic range improvement (dual_iso.mo) All done through the sensor meaning you can have RAW output and motion in the picture. A partnership with Magic Lantern would be awesome though. Two big problems, the K-3 does not do RAW HDR and Magic Lantern does not work with Pentax cameras.

10-11-2013, 09:31 AM	#8
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	Originally posted by jeffshaddix Why couldn't they just superimpose the shots and increase the bit depth? E.g., take each 14bit pixel value, and use some not so complicated logic to boost it to 16bits, 20bits, or 24bit, etc.. Multi-exposure images can be stored as RAW files by Pentax cameras so I imagine the new HDR function of the K-3 piggy backs on this ability.

11-03-2013, 05:27 PM	#10
dbh Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Edmonton Photos: Gallery Posts: 404	I'm trying to figure out the in camera HDR features of the K-3. I took a series of shots of the living room with the bright snowy day visible through the window in the background. I took an HDR-3 mode capture and a regular non-HDR photo. The HDR-3 mode produces a dramatic effect on the camera display, but loaded into Lightroom, the DNG looks identical to the non-HDR image. It is however 83MB vs 29MB so there is definitely more in the file! I installed the DCU 5 that came with the camera on my laptop and took a look at the HDR-3 capture in that. The preview showed the HDR image that I saw on the camera display but doing a save-as with processing produced a jpg which looked again like the non-HDR image. I did not the manual to be much help. I'm guessing there are 3 differently-exposed images stored in the HDR-3 DNG file somewhere and that the preview was created during the processing done by the camera. Still working on it...

11-04-2013, 04:12 AM	#11
ArneTorp Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Oslo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 66	Originally posted by dbh I'm trying to figure out the in camera HDR features of the K-3. I took a series of shots of the living room with the bright snowy day visible through the window in the background. I took an HDR-3 mode capture and a regular non-HDR photo. The HDR-3 mode produces a dramatic effect on the camera display, but loaded into Lightroom, the DNG looks identical to the non-HDR image. It is however 83MB vs 29MB so there is definitely more in the file! I installed the DCU 5 that came with the camera on my laptop and took a look at the HDR-3 capture in that. The preview showed the HDR image that I saw on the camera display but doing a save-as with processing produced a jpg which looked again like the non-HDR image. I did not the manual to be much help. I'm guessing there are 3 differently-exposed images stored in the HDR-3 DNG file somewhere and that the preview was created during the processing done by the camera. Still working on it... When I make HDRs in PP the initial 32-bit floating TIFF looks like no HDR and I have to lift the shadows and lower the highlights to get a good image. But since the image file has a lot of information in these areas the result is very good - not like if there was no HDR. Could it be that the info is there but you just have to tweak it in Lightroom to see it?

11-04-2013, 04:36 AM	#12
StigVidar Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 705	Originally posted by dbh It is however 83MB vs 29MB so there is definitely more in the file! Is it possible to have a look at a HDR DNG file? If so, you can upload it to Opplasting av filer

11-04-2013, 04:54 AM	#13
wizofoz Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne, Outer east. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,695	Originally posted by rawr Sigh. Posting a 5800x3800 px 7MB JPEG in a thread, when a 800x600 125kb JPEG would probably do the job just as well in illustrating your point .... This is for Adam and the mods... Isn't it possible to limit the uploads to the regulation forum size? I'm getting a bit tired of huge files causing my web pages to resize so that I cannot read the text without taking some action. It can't be that hard guys.....

11-04-2013, 08:02 AM	#14
dbh Inactive Account Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Edmonton Photos: Gallery Posts: 404	To follow up... I discovered a few things on this topic. The DCU v5 software that is included with the K-3 has two "Save As" functions and I chose the wrong one, i.e. the "Save As with processing". The "Save As" function saves the in-camera-generated HDR. This one disappears if you go into "Laboratory" mode. This program also has a function to split the raw file into the 3 embedded raw files captured by the camera. You could use those in whatever 3rd party s/w you like to use to make your HDRs. This splitting function also disappears when you enter Laboratory mode. The camera itself lets you "develop" the HDR to a JPG or TIFF file, including applying different settings (WB, distortion correction, HDR mode, etc.) when you do so and choosing which SD card to use for the copy. I don't believe there is a 4th raw HDR file inside the DNG along with the original 3. My hunch is that the preview file is created by the camera processor, and is recreated by it when you develop in-camera to TIFF or JPG. When loading the DNG, Adobe apparently sees the first of the embedded raw captures, i.e. the normal exposure, in all its 14-bit original glory. Also when setting up for an HDR, the main recording menu lets you choose the EV steps to use, but the quick setting on the info screen does not as far as I could see. I have yet to try the HDR feature with a flash.

11-04-2013, 09:50 AM	#15
wahid_satu Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Jakarta Photos: Gallery Posts: 96	I looked at the site and the forum referred to by the OP and couldn't find any explanations regarding 14 stops of DR. If it is the same as DXO then shouldn't the K-5, K-50, K-500 and other Pentax dslrs that use the 16MP sensor able to do the same at ISO100 or lower? I mean DXO DR values for that sensor is at least 13 stops, topping out at 14 something stops for the K-5 series. I thought we can just use average metering on a scene so that no area is over exposed, capture it using raw, pull up the dark areas at PP, and there you have it. I think I've seen K-5 shots here that are originally pitch black still able to show decent image after PP. Or am I missing something?