K3 shutter rattling when battery low

peterh337 · 03-29-2014, 08:51 AM

It turns out this isn't a simple problem.

I have done extensive testing using the Pentax battery which came with the K3, and I cannot reproduce the problem. I ran it right down by recording some movies and then taking loads of flash pics. Eventually it died, but it still would not get into the "shutter rattle" mode.

I am using the camera in the TAV or X modes.

It's possible that the K3 camera is using the battery's capacity data in some "clever" way, perhaps using the current capacity value to determine whether it's OK to fire the shutter, and the Hahnel (HL-PL90 1560mAh) battery returns a misleading value. And this didn't matter with the K5 or other DSLRs...

I do have an annoying problem with the camera in that sometimes it refuses to take a pic when the sutter is pressed, for no reason apparent on the display. It is also in focus at the time. I will start another thread on this, or do a search. I do see there is a setting to take a picture regardless of focus but it's not that simple.

peterh337 · 04-01-2014, 01:02 AM

Just got an email from Pentax UK. They say they have not been able to reproduce the problem (is that really possible, with the large number of cameras returned as per the other thread???) but would like me to send the camera to them (to Johnsons Photopia actually) for repair.

So both my 17-70 SDM and the K3 body have gone for repair at the same time

As mentioned in the other thread, I suspect the "refusing to shoot" issue is caused by the SDM lens being knackered, because with an old 16-45 lens it works perfectly.

awaldram · 04-01-2014, 09:30 AM

Apears to me you have

1 SDM lens failing
2 3rd party battery with high internal resistance.

I fail to see how Johnsons are expected to 'fix' your K3 .?

I suspect Pentax UK are feeding you the pacebo effect = telling you what you wnat to hear.

At least your camera will be checked/serviced but doubt it will make any odds to your issues.

dgrPhotos · 04-01-2014, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by peterh337

Mine has just started doing this.

A freshly charged Hahnel battery, about 10 pics taken, and it is showing just 1 bar on the battery status and it locks itself into a mode where the shutter is operating at about 20Hz, and cannot be stopped other than by removing the battery, or by moving the on/off switch to the last (spring loaded) position and back.

I am now recharging the original battery and will see if it re-occurs, but surely a camera should not behave like this.

The other thing I noticed just before that was that it simply refused to respond to the shutter. I was taking pics of a very simple outdoor landscape scene and it was as if it could not focus on anything...

Auto focus stop responding as well?

---------- Post added 04-01-14 at 01:16 PM ----------

Originally posted by peterh337

Just got an email from Pentax UK. They say they have not been able to reproduce the problem (is that really possible, with the large number of cameras returned as per the other thread???) but would like me to send the camera to them (to Johnsons Photopia actually) for repair.

So both my 17-70 SDM and the K3 body have gone for repair at the same time

As mentioned in the other thread, I suspect the "refusing to shoot" issue is caused by the SDM lens being knackered, because with an old 16-45 lens it works perfectly.

Interesting. I had a K-3 and ran into the runaway mirror issue. Minutes after I couldn't get it to focus. I assumed the SDM motor was the issue and it still may be. Interesting to hear someone else ran into the problem at the same time. Coincident?

**DRabbit** · 04-01-2014, 01:18 PM

SDM is not related, at least not solely. 95% of the time it happened to me, the camera was set to manual focus.

Neither are third-party batteries. I've never used a 3rd party battery. That's not to say that if it is indeed power-related, like some suspect, the 3rd party battery could make you more prone to the issue (maybe). But like I said, in all the times I had it happen, I never used a 3rd party battery. I don't even own one for my Pentax cameras.

However, I did have lots of other types of "silent lockups" (no mirror-flapping) with the K3. The camera would just become unresponsive, or parts of it would. It's actually shown in the video I posted in the Mirror-Flapping Report thread... you can see a silent lockup right at the beginning. It happened right after I upgraded to firmware 1.03.

dgrPhotos · 04-01-2014, 04:15 PM

Could be the canary in the coal mine. Not the cause of either but has the same source.....who knows.

Tord · 04-01-2014, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

My experience has been that claims for aftermarket battery capacity are much overstated.

Steve

My experience with Hänel batteries in Pentax cameras has never been good: It is the voltage under load that is important, first and foremost!

---------- Post added 04-02-14 at 07:40 AM ----------

Originally posted by peterh337

Just got an email from Pentax UK. They say they have not been able to reproduce the problem (is that really possible, with the large number of cameras returned as per the other thread???) but would like me to send the camera to them (to Johnsons Photopia actually) for repair.

So both my 17-70 SDM and the K3 body have gone for repair at the same time

As mentioned in the other thread, I suspect the "refusing to shoot" issue is caused by the SDM lens being knackered, because with an old 16-45 lens it works perfectly.

To me, this sounds like the SDM lens needs more power than the K-3 can deliver, thus a voltage drop, that leads to a processor crash, as others have described it, as the old lens uses the cameras focusing motor. Have had similar problems with RC gear, where the receiver fails during flying due to voltage drop under flight conditions, when the servos are more loaded. Expensive!

**bkpix** · 04-01-2014, 10:43 PM

When I had a similar problem (mirror flop) with the K-5, CRIS repaired the camera under warranty and it never recurred. The fix was, if I recall, replacing the mirror assembly. From all I've read about the K-3 issues, it sounds like a hardware problem that may be triggered by battery voltage variations that would not normally cause a problem: hence you have mirror flop happening with off-brand batteries, with Pentax batteries that are depleted, with fully charged batteries on hot days (as in my own case), and, apparently, during certain phases of the moon.

peterh337 · 04-01-2014, 11:56 PM

The SDM issue is not battery related - it happens with the brand new Pentax battery, fully charged.

The shutter rattle issue could not be reproduced with the Pentax battery, all the way down it it being so flat the camera simply died. If the Hahnel battery (which always worked perfectly in the K5 - I used to alternate them) has suddenly died, that is fine as a "result". But the camera should still not lock up into the "rattling shutter" mode.

In my (industrial electronics) business, FWIW, if we have a disaster and send out a dud batch of stuff, we very quickly send out corrected product and recall the duffs, and we tell every affected customer that he is the only one affected

Thankfully this is extremely rare (1999 was the last one - a few hundred units with reversed tantalum capacitors which would eventually fail short-circuit).

Obviously if Pentax have say 10000 K3 cameras or lenses that are duff they aren't going to send out 10000 new ones by DHL and then hope for the other 10000 to be returned... so they will do the less ethical option which is the only economical one and which everybody else does. I don't really mind so long as mine gets fixed!

dgrPhotos · 04-02-2014, 04:41 AM

When my SDM failure occurred I was running on AA batteries that started running low. When I switched over to the Pentax battery the issue remained. I did just order another K-3 and this time with an extra Pentax battery....just in case.

peterh337 · 04-02-2014, 07:48 AM

I cannot understand how a lens motor could fail as a result of a flat battery.

Betting both of these two issues is probably just a coincidence and since neither is particularly noticeable they may not have happened at anywhere near the same time.

My K5 went back for a repair twice within 6 months. After that it was fine. Pentax clearly sort these things out eventually.

dgrPhotos · 04-02-2014, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by peterh337

I cannot understand how a lens motor could fail as a result of a flat battery.

Betting both of these two issues is probably just a coincidence and since neither is particularly noticeable they may not have happened at anywhere near the same time.

My K5 went back for a repair twice within 6 months. After that it was fine. Pentax clearly sort these things out eventually.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe it's a coincident. Until it's full understood what's happening why take a chance.

**i_trax** · 04-02-2014, 10:35 AM

ok, it did happen to me in Hong Kong a few days ago, the first time with my K-3.
Pentax battery (low), K-3 + Sigma Contemporary 17-70 Macro HSM, and suddenly it started "machine gun" noise, had to take battery out, inserted the other fully charged battery and all good.
Pictures were not taken during "machine gun" run.
hopefully will never happen again.

**DRabbit** · 04-02-2014, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by i_trax

ok, it did happen to me in Hong Kong a few days ago, the first time with my K-3.
Pentax battery (low), K-3 + Sigma Contemporary 17-70 Macro HSM, and suddenly it started "machine gun" noise, had to take battery out, inserted the other fully charged battery and all good.
Pictures were not taken during "machine gun" run.
hopefully will never happen again.

i_trax... I added your name to the list here:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/254464-k3-crazy-mirror-sic...ours-here.html

if you could add your report too, that would be great

Thanks!

peterh337 · 04-14-2014, 02:43 AM

My K3 has just come back from Pentax (JP Service Solutions - presumably Johnsons Photopia) with a note saying

Checked function - unable to recreate fault - updated firmware.

The firmware was however already the latest (1.03) when I sent it in.

04-01-2014, 01:02 AM	#17
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	Just got an email from Pentax UK. They say they have not been able to reproduce the problem (is that really possible, with the large number of cameras returned as per the other thread???) but would like me to send the camera to them (to Johnsons Photopia actually) for repair. So both my 17-70 SDM and the K3 body have gone for repair at the same time As mentioned in the other thread, I suspect the "refusing to shoot" issue is caused by the SDM lens being knackered, because with an old 16-45 lens it works perfectly. Last edited by peterh337; 04-01-2014 at 04:19 AM.

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03-29-2014, 08:51 AM	#16
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	It turns out this isn't a simple problem. I have done extensive testing using the Pentax battery which came with the K3, and I cannot reproduce the problem. I ran it right down by recording some movies and then taking loads of flash pics. Eventually it died, but it still would not get into the "shutter rattle" mode. I am using the camera in the TAV or X modes. It's possible that the K3 camera is using the battery's capacity data in some "clever" way, perhaps using the current capacity value to determine whether it's OK to fire the shutter, and the Hahnel (HL-PL90 1560mAh) battery returns a misleading value. And this didn't matter with the K5 or other DSLRs... I do have an annoying problem with the camera in that sometimes it refuses to take a pic when the sutter is pressed, for no reason apparent on the display. It is also in focus at the time. I will start another thread on this, or do a search. I do see there is a setting to take a picture regardless of focus but it's not that simple.

04-01-2014, 09:30 AM	#18
awaldram Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Hampshire Photos: Gallery Posts: 732	Apears to me you have 1 SDM lens failing 2 3rd party battery with high internal resistance. I fail to see how Johnsons are expected to 'fix' your K3 .? I suspect Pentax UK are feeding you the pacebo effect = telling you what you wnat to hear. At least your camera will be checked/serviced but doubt it will make any odds to your issues.

04-01-2014, 11:12 AM	#19
dgrPhotos Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 35	Originally posted by peterh337 Mine has just started doing this. A freshly charged Hahnel battery, about 10 pics taken, and it is showing just 1 bar on the battery status and it locks itself into a mode where the shutter is operating at about 20Hz, and cannot be stopped other than by removing the battery, or by moving the on/off switch to the last (spring loaded) position and back. I am now recharging the original battery and will see if it re-occurs, but surely a camera should not behave like this. The other thing I noticed just before that was that it simply refused to respond to the shutter. I was taking pics of a very simple outdoor landscape scene and it was as if it could not focus on anything... Auto focus stop responding as well? ---------- Post added 04-01-14 at 01:16 PM ---------- Originally posted by peterh337 Just got an email from Pentax UK. They say they have not been able to reproduce the problem (is that really possible, with the large number of cameras returned as per the other thread???) but would like me to send the camera to them (to Johnsons Photopia actually) for repair. So both my 17-70 SDM and the K3 body have gone for repair at the same time As mentioned in the other thread, I suspect the "refusing to shoot" issue is caused by the SDM lens being knackered, because with an old 16-45 lens it works perfectly. Interesting. I had a K-3 and ran into the runaway mirror issue. Minutes after I couldn't get it to focus. I assumed the SDM motor was the issue and it still may be. Interesting to hear someone else ran into the problem at the same time. Coincident?

04-01-2014, 01:18 PM	#20
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	SDM is not related, at least not solely. 95% of the time it happened to me, the camera was set to manual focus. Neither are third-party batteries. I've never used a 3rd party battery. That's not to say that if it is indeed power-related, like some suspect, the 3rd party battery could make you more prone to the issue (maybe). But like I said, in all the times I had it happen, I never used a 3rd party battery. I don't even own one for my Pentax cameras. However, I did have lots of other types of "silent lockups" (no mirror-flapping) with the K3. The camera would just become unresponsive, or parts of it would. It's actually shown in the video I posted in the Mirror-Flapping Report thread... you can see a silent lockup right at the beginning. It happened right after I upgraded to firmware 1.03.

04-01-2014, 04:15 PM	#21
dgrPhotos Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 35	Could be the canary in the coal mine. Not the cause of either but has the same source.....who knows.

04-01-2014, 10:33 PM	#22
Tord Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gothenburg, aka Göteborg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 234	Originally posted by stevebrot My experience has been that claims for aftermarket battery capacity are much overstated. Steve My experience with Hänel batteries in Pentax cameras has never been good: It is the voltage under load that is important, first and foremost! ---------- Post added 04-02-14 at 07:40 AM ---------- Originally posted by peterh337 Just got an email from Pentax UK. They say they have not been able to reproduce the problem (is that really possible, with the large number of cameras returned as per the other thread???) but would like me to send the camera to them (to Johnsons Photopia actually) for repair. So both my 17-70 SDM and the K3 body have gone for repair at the same time As mentioned in the other thread, I suspect the "refusing to shoot" issue is caused by the SDM lens being knackered, because with an old 16-45 lens it works perfectly. To me, this sounds like the SDM lens needs more power than the K-3 can deliver, thus a voltage drop, that leads to a processor crash, as others have described it, as the old lens uses the cameras focusing motor. Have had similar problems with RC gear, where the receiver fails during flying due to voltage drop under flight conditions, when the servos are more loaded. Expensive!

04-01-2014, 10:43 PM	#23
bkpix Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Creswell, Oregon Photos: Albums Posts: 568	When I had a similar problem (mirror flop) with the K-5, CRIS repaired the camera under warranty and it never recurred. The fix was, if I recall, replacing the mirror assembly. From all I've read about the K-3 issues, it sounds like a hardware problem that may be triggered by battery voltage variations that would not normally cause a problem: hence you have mirror flop happening with off-brand batteries, with Pentax batteries that are depleted, with fully charged batteries on hot days (as in my own case), and, apparently, during certain phases of the moon.

04-01-2014, 11:56 PM	#24
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	The SDM issue is not battery related - it happens with the brand new Pentax battery, fully charged. The shutter rattle issue could not be reproduced with the Pentax battery, all the way down it it being so flat the camera simply died. If the Hahnel battery (which always worked perfectly in the K5 - I used to alternate them) has suddenly died, that is fine as a "result". But the camera should still not lock up into the "rattling shutter" mode. In my (industrial electronics) business, FWIW, if we have a disaster and send out a dud batch of stuff, we very quickly send out corrected product and recall the duffs, and we tell every affected customer that he is the only one affected Thankfully this is extremely rare (1999 was the last one - a few hundred units with reversed tantalum capacitors which would eventually fail short-circuit). Obviously if Pentax have say 10000 K3 cameras or lenses that are duff they aren't going to send out 10000 new ones by DHL and then hope for the other 10000 to be returned... so they will do the less ethical option which is the only economical one and which everybody else does. I don't really mind so long as mine gets fixed!

04-02-2014, 04:41 AM	#25
dgrPhotos Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 35	When my SDM failure occurred I was running on AA batteries that started running low. When I switched over to the Pentax battery the issue remained. I did just order another K-3 and this time with an extra Pentax battery....just in case.

04-02-2014, 07:48 AM	#26
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	I cannot understand how a lens motor could fail as a result of a flat battery. Betting both of these two issues is probably just a coincidence and since neither is particularly noticeable they may not have happened at anywhere near the same time. My K5 went back for a repair twice within 6 months. After that it was fine. Pentax clearly sort these things out eventually.

04-02-2014, 09:16 AM	#27
dgrPhotos Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 35	Originally posted by peterh337 I cannot understand how a lens motor could fail as a result of a flat battery. Betting both of these two issues is probably just a coincidence and since neither is particularly noticeable they may not have happened at anywhere near the same time. My K5 went back for a repair twice within 6 months. After that it was fine. Pentax clearly sort these things out eventually. Don't get me wrong, I do believe it's a coincident. Until it's full understood what's happening why take a chance.

04-02-2014, 10:35 AM	#28
i_trax Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Perth Western Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,621	ok, it did happen to me in Hong Kong a few days ago, the first time with my K-3. Pentax battery (low), K-3 + Sigma Contemporary 17-70 Macro HSM, and suddenly it started "machine gun" noise, had to take battery out, inserted the other fully charged battery and all good. Pictures were not taken during "machine gun" run. hopefully will never happen again.

04-02-2014, 05:59 PM	#29
DRabbit Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 593	Originally posted by i_trax ok, it did happen to me in Hong Kong a few days ago, the first time with my K-3. Pentax battery (low), K-3 + Sigma Contemporary 17-70 Macro HSM, and suddenly it started "machine gun" noise, had to take battery out, inserted the other fully charged battery and all good. Pictures were not taken during "machine gun" run. hopefully will never happen again. i_trax... I added your name to the list here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/172-pentax-k-3/254464-k3-crazy-mirror-sic...ours-here.html if you could add your report too, that would be great Thanks!

04-14-2014, 02:43 AM	#30
peterh337 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: London Posts: 573 Original Poster	My K3 has just come back from Pentax (JP Service Solutions - presumably Johnsons Photopia) with a note saying Checked function - unable to recreate fault - updated firmware. The firmware was however already the latest (1.03) when I sent it in.