Interval Composite Glitch

K David · 12-21-2014, 08:40 PM

Last week I tried to do some interval composite star trails. My K-3 would not do it if I used a 30-second shutter speed. 25 seconds? fine. Not 30. Anyone else having this issue? Is this a glitch or an intentional design ... thing?

**jbinpg** · 12-21-2014, 09:47 PM

Working as designed. The interval is shutter speed + pause between frames. Thus, the interval will always need to be larger than the shutter speed. Longest shutter speed is 30 seconds so you won't be able to use it.

K David · 12-22-2014, 12:36 AM

So, I can't set it to 30-second exposure with a two-second interval but I can do a 25-second exposure with a two-second interval, because the latter is only 27 total seconds? Why it would be designed that way makes zero sense but is an even better argument for why Pentax needs to update the firmware to make a zero-lag option for the interval shooting modes.

Stone G. · 12-22-2014, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by K David

So, I can't set it to 30-second exposure with a two-second interval but I can do a 25-second exposure with a two-second interval, because the latter is only 27 total seconds? Why it would be designed that way makes zero sense but is an even better argument for why Pentax needs to update the firmware to make a zero-lag option for the interval shooting modes.

You can! - but the interval may need to be 33 or 34 seconds rather than 32. I just tried it out on my K-3: Works fine with 30s exposure and 33s interval.

stevebrot · 12-22-2014, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by K David

even better argument for why Pentax needs to

And you are sure that it works differently with other cameras? This sort of logic is pretty common unless you expecting something different. After all, it is nice to know that 10 intervals of 30s = 300s regardless of the actual exposure times.

Steve

Unregistered User · 12-22-2014, 04:00 PM

It works this way because it has worked this way since the dawn of interval timing. An interval is... an interval. Every X seconds you trigg an event. If the event takes longer it will finish and wait for next trigger. Therefor you will need to calculate a new interval or event duration. Changing it would make it really weird for me.

---------- Post added 12-23-14 at 12:02 AM ----------

Also remember that the camera needs to save the file to the SD-card and get ready to shoot again so do not make the pause to narrow.

K David · 12-22-2014, 10:23 PM

I suppose that what I don't understand is that if I choose a between-shot interval of two seconds and the camera works fine at a 25-second or slower exposure and doesn't work fine with 30-second exposures, why? What's odder still is that this only happens this way with interval composite. With straight-up interval shooting, it will take a 30-second exposure and then another every two seconds until it hits 2,000 (or the sensor overheats.) This is limited to 30-second exposures on interval composite.

Unregistered User · 12-23-2014, 03:25 AM

Originally posted by K David

I suppose that what I don't understand is that if I choose a between-shot interval of two seconds and the camera works fine at a 25-second or slower exposure and doesn't work fine with 30-second exposures, why? What's odder still is that this only happens this way with interval composite. With straight-up interval shooting, it will take a 30-second exposure and then another every two seconds until it hits 2,000 (or the sensor overheats.) This is limited to 30-second exposures on interval composite.

Please tell me what you have set for time in interval and how many pictures have you set it to take? When I read your first post again I suspect you have set your interval to 2 seconds and shutter speed to 30s. Is that so?

You need to set the interval time to be > or = shutter speed + paus time+ camera image processing time

K David · 12-23-2014, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Tjompen1968

You need to set the interval time to be > or = shutter speed + paus time+ camera image processing time

Your understanding is correct. I'm going to try it with these settings tonight and see if I can figure it out. I know I'm doing something wrong, but I just don't know what.

stevebrot · 12-23-2014, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Tjompen1968

You need to set the interval time to be > or = shutter speed + paus time+ camera image processing time

Turn off preview and AF and auto exposure to make the pause time minimal.

Steve

K David · 01-03-2015, 12:55 AM

So I've been testing my camera in interval composite mode some more. Here's what I've found.

When setting the time between frames, that's the time that lapses between each image (and is in addition to the shutter time.) I tested this by trying multiple-second exposures with both a two-second interval and the exposure+2 seconds. In each case, the interval (when it worked) what the number of second I input and did not take into account the shutter duration. So a 10-second shutter speed with a 2-second delay would be 12 seconds from shutter-up to shutter-up. With a 12-second duration, it was 22 seconds between. So that's how the K-3 is working, to remove any confusion about that.

I had a 32GB 95MBs San Disk SD card in the camera for the tests, the same card I've used for more than a year. I've also tried these tests with a brand new 64 GB 95 MBs San Disk SD card. The results were the same.

Not on;y will the camera only take a single photo on 30-second shutter speeds with interval composite mode, on no shutter speed could I get it to take more than two images. So it's a fair question, how many did I have it set to take? 3, 5, and 10. At no point would my K-3 take more than two interval composite shots at any shutter speed any more.

Also, after trying to take an interval composite with a 30-second exposure (and only a 30-second exposure), the camera goes back to the main screen instead of continuing the composite. The control wheels are then unresponsive (full manual mode) and I have to turn the K-3 off and then on again to regain function control.

My firmware is current (1.11.). This issue happens regardless of the image capture mode, image file type (jpg or raw+), and any of the other myriad settings I've tried.

So, can I ask a favor of people with a K-3?

Can you set your K-3 to interval composite mode (the shooting mode furthest on the right) and select any of the blending modes (it does not matter -- this issue is happening regardless of blending mode.)
You can select to save the process, or not, this issue occurs regardless.
Set your shutter speed for anything (2 seconds, 5 seconds, doesn't matter) and then your interval for 2 seconds (or 3 or 5 -- for me if I select 2 seconds I get two exposures, with any other interval I get three exposures -- even though I have the number of exposures set to 5 or 10.)
Let me know if your K-3 stops taking photos before it is supposed to or if it keeps going, please. I'm trying to figure out if this is a my-camera issue or a firmware or software issue.

Thank you all for your input, help, and insight. At this point, I am 100% certain that something is not working correctly. I just need to figure out what.

Edit: Interval shooting is also behaving the exact same way (not functioning correctly).

Edit 2: On a whim, I tried setting it to take 2,000 exposures. It kept on going past the previous limits where it stopped. So I tried it at 1,000 exposures. It kept on going then, too. So it looks like the problem is using interval composite mode with very few exposures.

It would still be good to know if other people's K-3s work like this.

Gimbal · 01-03-2015, 02:13 AM

As for the 30seconds exposure that ends up with an unresponsive camera, usually that means that the function "slow shutter speed noise reduction" (at least that is what it is called on the K5) is on.
What is does is that it takes another 30 seconds exposure with the shutter closed to record sensor noise, which it then subtracts from the image. This is also known as dark frame subtraction. For the user that means that the camera is unresponsive while the second exposure is in progress. This second exposure is as long as the first one, so for a 60 minutes exposure, the camera will be unresponsive for yet another 60 minutes after the first exposure. Not always that fun, I have this function off.

K David · 01-03-2015, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Gimbal

As for the 30seconds exposure that ends up with an unresponsive camera, usually that means that the function "slow shutter speed noise reduction" (at least that is what it is called on the K5) is on.

That setting is off on my K-3. Interestingly, the unresponsiveness goes back to the info screen, not to a blank screen. And some functions respond, like the menu button, but other's don't, like the command wheels.

Unregistered User · 01-03-2015, 01:21 PM

Can you exactly tell me what settings you have put in all the fields in the drive mode and exactly the exposure setting. It is not clear how you have been setting them. Do you use MF or AF? It will try to focus before the shot so if no focus is found it will not take the shot.

I have set 7 seconds as intervall, 5 seconds as shutter speed, i.e 2 seconds between shots, not saving the progress and there is no problem with this set-up...

EDIT: It will take the first shot but no more if it can not find focus. If pressing the menu-button between shots you will get info on the status of the intervall and pressing again before next shot will end the intervall prematurely.

---------- Post added 01-03-15 at 09:41 PM ----------

Originally posted by K David

So I've been testing my camera in interval composite mode some more. Here's what I've found.

When setting the time between frames, that's the time that lapses between each image (and is in addition to the shutter time.) I tested this by trying multiple-second exposures with both a two-second interval and the exposure+2 seconds. In each case, the interval (when it worked) what the number of second I input and did not take into account the shutter duration. So a 10-second shutter speed with a 2-second delay would be 12 seconds from shutter-up to shutter-up. With a 12-second duration, it was 22 seconds between. So that's how the K-3 is working, to remove any confusion about that.

I am not sure how to interpret this but the way it works is as follows:

The interval time setting tells the camera to "push the shutter button" every time the timer hits the interval time. If the camera is not ready to take a shot nothing will happen but the timer keeps on counting until reaching the set amount.

During the exposure the camera will be unresponsive but in the paus it will respond.

The interval has to be longer than the shutter speed so if we want to take a number of 10 second exposures with 2 seconds between the interval has to be set to 12 seconds.

BUT: Sometimes the camera takes time to save to the SD card or process the image and therefor needs more than 2 seconds between shots so you may need to set 13 or 14 seconds as interval i.e you get 3 or 4 seconds between shots.

This to look for if it does not work:

Is the paus between shots to short? I.e is the shutter speed equal or longer than the interval time. Set a longer interval time.

Is the focus in AF-mode and can not find focus? Set it to MF.

Is the Long exposure Noise reduction set to Auto or On? It will kick in when using shutter speeds longer than 1.3 seconds if turned ON, in Auto it kicks in at arround 20 seconds. Turn it OFF.

K David · 01-03-2015, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by Tjompen1968

Do you use MF or AF?

MF

Originally posted by Tjompen1968

The interval has to be longer than the shutter speed

This is contrary to the manner in which my K-3 has operated when it works properly -- which is inconsistently at best. The interval of two seconds is the time between the end of the first exposure and the start of the next. On my K-3, the interval does not take into consideration the shutter duration with the interval. I've tested this with a stop watch on about a dozen different shutter speed and interval time combinations. So if I have a two second shutter speed and three second interval, the total duration for the cycle will be five seconds. If it's a ten second shutter speed and four second interval, it's 14 seconds. This is the manner in which it operates, typically for one or two shots, in every case regardless of shutter time (except 30 seconds, which which it just doesn't function.)

I also turned off all of the features that I know of that affect write time -- lens corrections, color cast corrections, and so forth. As for write speed, the SD cards are 95 MBs, so there shouldn't be a buffer issue. Typically, when the K-3 was previously working flawlessly on interval shooting and composite modes the camera would write the image while the second was being taken (based on when the orange LED on the back of the camera turned on.)

Let me take a video of how it's functioning, maybe that will help. Let me try to replicate the issue and take a video of it tomorrow. If it is something that's set incorrectly, then it will be easier to see.

12-21-2014, 08:40 PM	#1
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437	Interval Composite Glitch Last week I tried to do some interval composite star trails. My K-3 would not do it if I used a 30-second shutter speed. 25 seconds? fine. Not 30. Anyone else having this issue? Is this a glitch or an intentional design ... thing?

12-22-2014, 01:57 PM	#5
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by K David even better argument for why Pentax needs to And you are sure that it works differently with other cameras? This sort of logic is pretty common unless you expecting something different. After all, it is nice to know that 10 intervals of 30s = 300s regardless of the actual exposure times. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 12-22-2014 at 02:03 PM.

01-03-2015, 12:55 AM	#11
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437 Original Poster	So I've been testing my camera in interval composite mode some more. Here's what I've found. When setting the time between frames, that's the time that lapses between each image (and is in addition to the shutter time.) I tested this by trying multiple-second exposures with both a two-second interval and the exposure+2 seconds. In each case, the interval (when it worked) what the number of second I input and did not take into account the shutter duration. So a 10-second shutter speed with a 2-second delay would be 12 seconds from shutter-up to shutter-up. With a 12-second duration, it was 22 seconds between. So that's how the K-3 is working, to remove any confusion about that. I had a 32GB 95MBs San Disk SD card in the camera for the tests, the same card I've used for more than a year. I've also tried these tests with a brand new 64 GB 95 MBs San Disk SD card. The results were the same. Not on;y will the camera only take a single photo on 30-second shutter speeds with interval composite mode, on no shutter speed could I get it to take more than two images. So it's a fair question, how many did I have it set to take? 3, 5, and 10. At no point would my K-3 take more than two interval composite shots at any shutter speed any more. Also, after trying to take an interval composite with a 30-second exposure (and only a 30-second exposure), the camera goes back to the main screen instead of continuing the composite. The control wheels are then unresponsive (full manual mode) and I have to turn the K-3 off and then on again to regain function control. My firmware is current (1.11.). This issue happens regardless of the image capture mode, image file type (jpg or raw+), and any of the other myriad settings I've tried. So, can I ask a favor of people with a K-3? Can you set your K-3 to interval composite mode (the shooting mode furthest on the right) and select any of the blending modes (it does not matter -- this issue is happening regardless of blending mode.) You can select to save the process, or not, this issue occurs regardless. Set your shutter speed for anything (2 seconds, 5 seconds, doesn't matter) and then your interval for 2 seconds (or 3 or 5 -- for me if I select 2 seconds I get two exposures, with any other interval I get three exposures -- even though I have the number of exposures set to 5 or 10.) Let me know if your K-3 stops taking photos before it is supposed to or if it keeps going, please. I'm trying to figure out if this is a my-camera issue or a firmware or software issue. Thank you all for your input, help, and insight. At this point, I am 100% certain that something is not working correctly. I just need to figure out what. Edit: Interval shooting is also behaving the exact same way (not functioning correctly). Edit 2: On a whim, I tried setting it to take 2,000 exposures. It kept on going past the previous limits where it stopped. So I tried it at 1,000 exposures. It kept on going then, too. So it looks like the problem is using interval composite mode with very few exposures. It would still be good to know if other people's K-3s work like this. Last edited by K David; 01-03-2015 at 01:07 AM.

01-03-2015, 01:21 PM	#14
Unregistered User Guest	Can you exactly tell me what settings you have put in all the fields in the drive mode and exactly the exposure setting. It is not clear how you have been setting them. Do you use MF or AF? It will try to focus before the shot so if no focus is found it will not take the shot. I have set 7 seconds as intervall, 5 seconds as shutter speed, i.e 2 seconds between shots, not saving the progress and there is no problem with this set-up... EDIT: It will take the first shot but no more if it can not find focus. If pressing the menu-button between shots you will get info on the status of the intervall and pressing again before next shot will end the intervall prematurely. ---------- Post added 01-03-15 at 09:41 PM ---------- Originally posted by K David So I've been testing my camera in interval composite mode some more. Here's what I've found. When setting the time between frames, that's the time that lapses between each image (and is in addition to the shutter time.) I tested this by trying multiple-second exposures with both a two-second interval and the exposure+2 seconds. In each case, the interval (when it worked) what the number of second I input and did not take into account the shutter duration. So a 10-second shutter speed with a 2-second delay would be 12 seconds from shutter-up to shutter-up. With a 12-second duration, it was 22 seconds between. So that's how the K-3 is working, to remove any confusion about that. I am not sure how to interpret this but the way it works is as follows: The interval time setting tells the camera to "push the shutter button" every time the timer hits the interval time. If the camera is not ready to take a shot nothing will happen but the timer keeps on counting until reaching the set amount. During the exposure the camera will be unresponsive but in the paus it will respond. The interval has to be longer than the shutter speed so if we want to take a number of 10 second exposures with 2 seconds between the interval has to be set to 12 seconds. BUT: Sometimes the camera takes time to save to the SD card or process the image and therefor needs more than 2 seconds between shots so you may need to set 13 or 14 seconds as interval i.e you get 3 or 4 seconds between shots. This to look for if it does not work: Is the paus between shots to short? I.e is the shutter speed equal or longer than the interval time. Set a longer interval time. Is the focus in AF-mode and can not find focus? Set it to MF. Is the Long exposure Noise reduction set to Auto or On? It will kick in when using shutter speeds longer than 1.3 seconds if turned ON, in Auto it kicks in at arround 20 seconds. Turn it OFF. Last edited by Unregistered User; 01-03-2015 at 02:03 PM.

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12-21-2014, 09:47 PM	#2
jbinpg Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Prince George, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,546	Working as designed. The interval is shutter speed + pause between frames. Thus, the interval will always need to be larger than the shutter speed. Longest shutter speed is 30 seconds so you won't be able to use it.

12-22-2014, 12:36 AM	#3
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437 Original Poster	So, I can't set it to 30-second exposure with a two-second interval but I can do a 25-second exposure with a two-second interval, because the latter is only 27 total seconds? Why it would be designed that way makes zero sense but is an even better argument for why Pentax needs to update the firmware to make a zero-lag option for the interval shooting modes.

12-22-2014, 07:30 AM	#4
Stone G. Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Zealand, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,516	Originally posted by K David So, I can't set it to 30-second exposure with a two-second interval but I can do a 25-second exposure with a two-second interval, because the latter is only 27 total seconds? Why it would be designed that way makes zero sense but is an even better argument for why Pentax needs to update the firmware to make a zero-lag option for the interval shooting modes. You can! - but the interval may need to be 33 or 34 seconds rather than 32. I just tried it out on my K-3: Works fine with 30s exposure and 33s interval.

12-22-2014, 04:00 PM	#6
Unregistered User Guest	It works this way because it has worked this way since the dawn of interval timing. An interval is... an interval. Every X seconds you trigg an event. If the event takes longer it will finish and wait for next trigger. Therefor you will need to calculate a new interval or event duration. Changing it would make it really weird for me. ---------- Post added 12-23-14 at 12:02 AM ---------- Also remember that the camera needs to save the file to the SD-card and get ready to shoot again so do not make the pause to narrow.

12-22-2014, 10:23 PM	#7
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437 Original Poster	I suppose that what I don't understand is that if I choose a between-shot interval of two seconds and the camera works fine at a 25-second or slower exposure and doesn't work fine with 30-second exposures, why? What's odder still is that this only happens this way with interval composite. With straight-up interval shooting, it will take a 30-second exposure and then another every two seconds until it hits 2,000 (or the sensor overheats.) This is limited to 30-second exposures on interval composite.

12-23-2014, 03:25 AM	#8
Unregistered User Guest	Originally posted by K David I suppose that what I don't understand is that if I choose a between-shot interval of two seconds and the camera works fine at a 25-second or slower exposure and doesn't work fine with 30-second exposures, why? What's odder still is that this only happens this way with interval composite. With straight-up interval shooting, it will take a 30-second exposure and then another every two seconds until it hits 2,000 (or the sensor overheats.) This is limited to 30-second exposures on interval composite. Please tell me what you have set for time in interval and how many pictures have you set it to take? When I read your first post again I suspect you have set your interval to 2 seconds and shutter speed to 30s. Is that so? You need to set the interval time to be > or = shutter speed + paus time+ camera image processing time

12-23-2014, 11:35 AM	#9
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437 Original Poster	Originally posted by Tjompen1968 You need to set the interval time to be > or = shutter speed + paus time+ camera image processing time Your understanding is correct. I'm going to try it with these settings tonight and see if I can figure it out. I know I'm doing something wrong, but I just don't know what.

12-23-2014, 11:40 AM	#10
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Tjompen1968 You need to set the interval time to be > or = shutter speed + paus time+ camera image processing time Turn off preview and AF and auto exposure to make the pause time minimal. Steve

01-03-2015, 02:13 AM	#12
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	As for the 30seconds exposure that ends up with an unresponsive camera, usually that means that the function "slow shutter speed noise reduction" (at least that is what it is called on the K5) is on. What is does is that it takes another 30 seconds exposure with the shutter closed to record sensor noise, which it then subtracts from the image. This is also known as dark frame subtraction. For the user that means that the camera is unresponsive while the second exposure is in progress. This second exposure is as long as the first one, so for a 60 minutes exposure, the camera will be unresponsive for yet another 60 minutes after the first exposure. Not always that fun, I have this function off.

01-03-2015, 12:59 PM	#13
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437 Original Poster	Originally posted by Gimbal As for the 30seconds exposure that ends up with an unresponsive camera, usually that means that the function "slow shutter speed noise reduction" (at least that is what it is called on the K5) is on. That setting is off on my K-3. Interestingly, the unresponsiveness goes back to the info screen, not to a blank screen. And some functions respond, like the menu button, but other's don't, like the command wheels.

01-03-2015, 02:12 PM	#15
K David Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Colorado Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,437 Original Poster	Originally posted by Tjompen1968 Do you use MF or AF? MF Originally posted by Tjompen1968 The interval has to be longer than the shutter speed This is contrary to the manner in which my K-3 has operated when it works properly -- which is inconsistently at best. The interval of two seconds is the time between the end of the first exposure and the start of the next. On my K-3, the interval does not take into consideration the shutter duration with the interval. I've tested this with a stop watch on about a dozen different shutter speed and interval time combinations. So if I have a two second shutter speed and three second interval, the total duration for the cycle will be five seconds. If it's a ten second shutter speed and four second interval, it's 14 seconds. This is the manner in which it operates, typically for one or two shots, in every case regardless of shutter time (except 30 seconds, which which it just doesn't function.) I also turned off all of the features that I know of that affect write time -- lens corrections, color cast corrections, and so forth. As for write speed, the SD cards are 95 MBs, so there shouldn't be a buffer issue. Typically, when the K-3 was previously working flawlessly on interval shooting and composite modes the camera would write the image while the second was being taken (based on when the orange LED on the back of the camera turned on.) Let me take a video of how it's functioning, maybe that will help. Let me try to replicate the issue and take a video of it tomorrow. If it is something that's set incorrectly, then it will be easier to see.