Thanks, sort of what I figured. Kinda bums me out that they left out a lot of features that were available on the less expensive models.

Why would Pentax include instructions for a built in flash on a camera that doesn't have one? All the additional capability is in the add on.

[mcgregni]

Yes Brook, I've been looking into these modes now for a new section of my Guide. The Flash modes on the K3II and K1 have been revised from the standard set on the earlier models, and of course (as you said) the modes that relate to the Built-in Flash have been removed. So there is not a 'Wireless' Mode, nor '2nd Curtain Sync' anymore. Both of these functions would be set on the accessory flash.


The 'Auto' and 'On' modes (plus their Red-Eye variants) remain, as these features are camera controlled. Also the 'Slow Speed Sync' mode remains, also because it is to do with the camera auto exposure control .

Yes Brook, I've been looking into these modes now for a new section of my Guide. The Flash modes on the K3II and K1 have been revised from the standard set on the earlier models, and of course (as you said) the modes that relate to the Built-in Flash have been removed. So there is not a 'Wireless' Mode, nor '2nd Curtain Sync' anymore. Both of these functions would be set on the accessory flash.


The 'Auto' and 'On' modes (plus their Red-Eye variants) remain, as these features are camera controlled. Also the 'Slow Speed Sync' mode remains, also because it is to do with the camera auto exposure control .

You're much better informed about hot shoe use on Pentax cameras than me. Long ago I worked through all the camera (K-10) and 540 manuals. Ended up never using the pop up flash and the rest is long forgotten. We all end up finding the ways to work that work for us. Its a chocolate, vanilla, strawberry decision, it's all ice cream.

[Smoke665]

I don't understand that last post Smoke665 .... ? What features are left out?


I agree that the flash and camera manuals are not the easiest source of finding practical and efficient ways to work with flash. You are right earlier about 'Flash Compensation' not applying to Manual Flash exposure mode. Flash Compensation applies to P-TTL automatic flash exposures, and shifts the metered flash exposure above or below the '0' point , in stops.

Things like the ability to Tether, WIFI, wireless triggering ability, on board flash to name a few. I'm sure that there are a few who actually use the GPS function but to me I would much rather have had the other options.

[mcgregni]

Well, the K3II could be seen in two ways .... either as a successor to the K3 (ie as an improvement on it), or as a complementary, side by side choice. It would be nice to have it all, but Pentax decided to throw up the choice and use the space on the top for the other equipment, rather than the flash. Some people for sure made a choice and stuck with the K3, but it has been a bit controversial. My own assumption about it, and the situation with the K1, is that they see those flagship models now as appealing to the sophisticated more experienced flash user (who would naturally own and carry around accessory flashguns and/or use radio trigger systems). Of course, as has been pointed out here many times, that's not to say that users of the built-in flash are not experienced flash users, but in general I sort of 'get' the way that I see Pentax thinking about their target market for it.


You mentioned wireless triggering capability, and this has been removed from some cameras with built-in flashes (K-S1, K-S2, K70), but its not applicable to the K3II because that camera has no flash. The removal of the feature from the 'lower/mid' range models (when it has traditionally been offered by Pentax across the range), is also controversial.

[Smoke665]

You mentioned wireless triggering capability

I could live without the pop up flash, though there have been times this year that it would have been handy, rather than carrying the extra gear. However, I don't see how having the ability to trigger an off camera flash wireless is, or should be dependent on, having or not having a pop up flash. Why would they have a PC sync connection if they didn't think it was necessary to be able to trigger an off camera flash. They could have just as easily left that off, and made you totally dependent on an accessory transmitter. The Pixel Shift is good, but the lack of support by Adobe products makes it a hassle to first develop in UT5 first.

The lack of wireless capability and tethering is another sore spot. If the camera was as you say "designed for the more sophisticated user", why were these not included. Instead you have to buy a wireless card and give up an SD card slot, to get the same features as many other camera makes in the same price range.

I've been a Pentax user for over 40 years. I bought the K3II mainly because I already had a sizable investment in Pentax glass and my existing K3 body crashed without warning. Frankly after using the K3II for close to 6 months, I regret to say that I would probably have been better off to sell what I had and go to the dark side.

[mcgregni]

The point I was making was that 'wireless capability' of the camera is dependent on the built-in flash. There is no other wireless flash technology in DSLRs, traditionally from all brands, not just Pentax. 'Wireless' in this context means Optical Triggering signals (light pulses) from either a built-in flash or accessory hot-shoe flash. No built-in flash, no wireless flash triggering.


Now, if you're suggesting that Pentax should develop a new radio flash control system for its DSLRs and flashes ....and have the transmitter built in to the camera, and receivers in the flashes ..... well, I'm all for it! Canon have done it, although with accessory transmitters I believe .....but, check out the cost of it all ! I'm not sure how many Pentax flash users would be up for it ..... ?

[Smoke665]

The point I was making was that 'wireless capability' of the camera is dependent on the built-in flash.

You are totally incorrect on this. For $99 I can buy an SD sized card that will allow the wireless download of pictures AND allow me to tether the camera from my tablet to operate it remotely including changes to settings. If I buy an overpriced Pentax flash I can trigger it remotely. Obviously all of this can be done without benefit of an on board flash, so the ability is there and does not require an on board flash.

The articles I've read is that the technology for the GPS took up to much room so they sacrificed the other features. Dumb move in my opinion.

[mcgregni]

You're referring to a different meaning of the term 'wireless'. In the context of DSLR flash systems, then 'wireless' refers to the proprietary optical triggering system that controls slave flashes with P-TTL functions.


I'm not debating the pros and cons of the various other features you are referring ..... I am only talking about the flash capabilities.

[Smoke665]

The point I was making was that 'wireless capability' of the camera is dependent on the built-in flash.

In the context of DSLR flash systems, then 'wireless' refers to the proprietary optical triggering system that controls slave flashes with P-TTL functions.

Again, you are incorrect. No instructions are transmitted via an optical signal. In the TTL mode, pulses of light from each flash are read by the camera, calculated, and a signal is transmitted via radio signal (wireless) back to each flash that sets power level. Wireless and optical are two completely different terms. The wireless signal or (WIFI) are radio signals that typically operate now on the 802.11n, 2.4GHz frequency, or the latest 802.11ac, 5GHz band. The K3II does not have a WIFI transmitter/receiver, but is capable of communicating via WIFI with the use of an auxiliary device with WIFI (Compatible flash, hot shoe transmitter, FluCard). You do not need a "built in" or on board flash, for TTL capability. A flash compatible with the camera system can be mounted in the hot shoe, like the Metz 52 AF-1 or the Metz 58 AF-2, that can operate as a transmitter or controller for other flashes. Or installing a compatible transmitter in the hot shoe, like the Commlite G430s and T320. A FluCard will give you the ability to communicate with the camera, and trigger the shutter, among other things, but has no bearing on the TTL capability.

[stevebrot]

Again, you are incorrect. No instructions are transmitted via an optical signal. In the TTL mode, pulses of light from each flash are read by the camera, calculated, and a signal is transmitted via radio signal (wireless) back to each flash that sets power level.

You are incorrect as a general case. Wireless P-TTL with the Pentax system is purely optical. Your comments are off-topic.


Steve

[mcgregni]

He needs to do a bit of reading, that's for sure. The information given here would be a good starting point.

[Smoke665]

Wireless P-TTL with the Pentax system is purely optical. Your comments are off-topic.

He needs to do a bit of reading, that's for sure.

First of all my question as originally posted was answered some time back. I've never held myself out as an "expert" nor claimed to be compiling a "guide" on the subject. I do however actually "own" a K3II (the subject of my OP) and over the last 8 months, have become intimately aware of, by use or reference material, how it works. I only posted again after multiple erroneous off thread comments to my OP were made on how P-TTL communicated with the flash. Whether you accept or decline my explanation quite frankly doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as I remain comfortable in the knowledge of how my particular model works. If you feel the overwhelming need to continue to debate the issue, then I suggest you start your own thread, but as for this one, I'm done with it.

[clackers]

Again, you are incorrect. No instructions are transmitted via an optical signal. In the TTL mode, pulses of light from each flash are read by the camera, calculated, and a signal is transmitted via radio signal (wireless) back to each flash that sets power level. Wireless and optical are two completely different terms. .

You are completely wrong, and I pity you if your attitude in life is to disregard people who know more than you.

There is no radio inside my K-30, or my two AF540 speedlights.

They happily trigger each other wirelessly, with P-TTL, by optical signal - light flashes with four available channels.

Instructions to raise or lower power based on the camera's metering are transmitted by these optical signals.

'Wireless' does not mean 'WiFi', except in your own head, and you'd best dispel that notion promptly.

[stevebrot]

Whether you accept or decline my explanation quite frankly doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as I remain comfortable in the knowledge of how my particular model works.

Good luck, though for what its worth, except for not having a built-in flash your K-3II flash operation is identical to my K-3. While I don't have a K-3II, I do have almost a decade experience using the Pentax flash system including off-camera operation with multiple flash and am very confident as to how it works. I went back through your comments and found a few questions that I don't believe were properly addressed. I offer a few answers below:

Everything works, but my EXIF data shows "Flash did not fire"?? Doesn't seem to affect anything, but just curious as to why it does this??

It does that because flash confirmation requires a dedicated flash or compatible hot shoe cable be mounted. The X contacts close regardless of whether a flash is present. That is traditionally the way it works and is the same across brands. Similarly, flash synced through the PC cable will also fail to write "flash fired" to the EXIF. A dedicated flash (Pentax brand or compatible) will signal both "flash ready" and "flash fired" through the "ready" contact and "mode" contact on the shoe.

According to instructions on Pg 43 it list "flash compensation", but doesn't elaborate on what exactly this does. I currently adjust for compensation at the light, so I have this set to "0". My guess is that unless it's a P-TTL flash, the compensation won't work.

You are correct. The body has no way to control a generic speedlight. It can, however, control an external P-TTL flash. In models having a built-in flash, that feature also allows manual control of duration for that flash as well.

Pg 91 offers similar "cryptic" instructions. It lists four flashes that support wireless P-TTL operation and advises to "set the camera channel on the external flashes", I can't find any setting on the camera for an "external channel".

You are correct, there is no such setting and will admit that when I first tried to set wireless flash up, I went looking for a menu setting. How it works is pretty obvious if you have two Pentax P-TTL compatible flash and is described more completely in the flash manual. Pg 91 of the K-3II manual says to set "camera channel" on the flashes. The flashes support multiple channels to allow use of multiple camera/flash setups without interference.* I agree that the term "camera channel" is not helpful.

It also goes on to discuss connecting the flash via X-sync cord but fails to clarify if this will allow other manufacturer's with TTL capability to then operate with the camera?

You cannot do TTL or P-TTL flash using a standard PC cable. This is universally true across brands. There are cameras (e.g. Pentax LX film camera) that bend the rule using a "stepped" or two part fitting and a proprietary cable with a second "control" circuit, but your K-3II is not one of them.

In regards to the expense of full-featured Pentax-brand flashes, I agree. IMHO, that they are overpriced. That is why I bought a Sigma EF 610 DG Super. If I were to do it over today with a K-3II like yours, I would get a basic P-TTL flash for occasional use and go the strobist route with recently available HSS solutions and RF wireless triggers. That approach is much cheaper and offers significantly better control.


Steve

* The communication is through a modulated light pulse from the controller (on the camera) to the slaves. The control pulse has a signature specific to the set channel. The slaves must be able to "see" the controller light pulse (either direct or reflected) in order for the wireless sync and control to work.