K3 inconsistent PDAF focus point in focus indication

**Larrymc** · 04-18-2017, 03:36 PM

Hi folks,

I was reading a thread this morning Focus point indicator on preview/playback - PentaxForums.com so I started checking my K3 and it is very inconsistent in reporting a PDAF in focus point even though the view finder indicates in focus and I get an focus beep. Over the past few years I have noticed that EXIFTool reports in the maker notes section the camera AFPointSelected and AFPointsInFocus fields and on occasion it reports that certain points are in focus but it mostly reports none in focus. I didn't think much of that till now. Last week I got a new Tamron SP AF 70-200mm F2.8 Di LD [IF] Macro (A001) so I tested it with a series of shots at our local airport on landing and departing aircraft out of 68 shots only two were out of focus and were reported in EXIFTools as being in focus and since I was using continuous AF it reported which point it was. I never checked the Info Screen second screen simply because I really did not know at the time I was shooting the aircraft that the second info screen actually showed the in focus points. Luckily I still have the DNG files on my second SD card so I checked the files in camera and all but two checked in focus. This morning I got out two pretty good lens, my smc DA35 2.4 AL and my smc DFA macro 100 f2.8 WR mounted them on my tripod and shot about twenty viewfinder indicated in focus shots and not a single one of them showed as in focus either on the in camera second info screen or EXIFTool. What gives do any of my fellow Pentaxians have this problem with their K3?

panonski · 04-19-2017, 01:40 AM

I'm used to not trust (first) AF confirmation, specially in OVF. I always double tapping my shutter button to get slight improvement, after first focus beep. It's not very friendly specially when you must be very quick, but I'm sort of used to that.
.
Problem is more visible, in faster appertures, bellow "f - 6.7" .
..
You can try for youself, look in OVF, nail your focus on desired point, get shoot, and after that, without moving camera from same spot, try again to focus. Or just double your focus find, by one more half press shutter.
In many cases,
you will find out, that lens will slight improve first focus point ( but yet - this "slight" is very visible in final pic ) , and you will see this slight change right away in OVF and you will hear it, because the lens drive will do the job one more time, like it was not quite right in focus. ( and it did not )
--
I think it's about the lens itself also. I use Sigma 17-70 almost all the time. It's not a bad lens, but compared to some of the primes, it's slow in focusing, specially in slower appertures over "f 19" . I'm not tested ( yet) corectness of some other lenses, or maybe primes vs zooms, but I believe this missfocusing in first attempt is sort of - mixed failure.
--
With less good lens, you will get faster in missfocused area, and I believe you maybe won't even see this is happening with some very good prime

...
I heared that in LIve V. focus is more accurate - mainly because in this mode camera use different technique to find focus point, and because of much weaker signal from mirror ( when you're not in LV ) - Add to this "medium" or "lower" quality lens,
and quickly you will find out the most pics, under these and here described conditions have not accurate and desirable sharpness...

**Larrymc** · 04-19-2017, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by panonski

I'm used to not trust (first) AF confirmation, specially in OVF. I always double tapping my shutter button to get slight improvement, after first focus beep. It's not very friendly specially when you must be very quick, but I'm sort of used to that.

I try to "bump" the focus with aircraft in flight while in AF-C and it seems to work. I was using my new Tamron 70-200 at f2.8 (wide open) and got 66 in focus out of 68 shots. Yesterday the K-3 would not report any single tripod mounted shot as in focus with two pretty good primes at various aperture settings even when bumping the focus and using a cable release. I checked with SR on and SR off there has to be an explanation for this behavior.
.

Originally posted by panonski

Problem is more visible, in faster appertures, bellow "f - 6.7"

I get in focus even with f2.8 wide open with the Tamron.
..

Originally posted by panonski

You can try for youself, look in OVF, nail your focus on desired point, get shoot, and after that, without moving camera from same spot, try again to focus. Or just double your focus find, by one more half press shutter.

I'm well aware of that and when I have time I do it too.

Originally posted by panonski

In many cases,
you will find out, that lens will slight improve first focus point ( but yet - this "slight" is very visible in final pic ) , and you will see this slight change right away in OVF and you will hear it, because the lens drive will do the job one more time, like it was not quite right in focus. ( and it did not )

--

Originally posted by panonski

I think it's about the lens itself also. I use Sigma 17-70 almost all the time. It's not a bad lens, but compared to some of the primes, it's slow in focusing, specially in slower appertures over "f 19" . I'm not tested ( yet) corectness of some other lenses, or maybe primes vs zooms, but I believe this missfocusing in first attempt is sort of - mixed failure.

--

Originally posted by panonski

With less good lens, you will get faster in missfocused area, and I believe you maybe won't even see this is happening with some very good prime

Even with a rather "crappy" Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 DG Macro I get in focus showing in the maker notes on EXIFTool so something else is happening

...

Originally posted by panonski

I heared that in LIve V. focus is more accurate - mainly because in this mode camera use different technique to find focus point, and because of much weaker signal from mirror ( when you're not in LV ) - Add to this "medium" or "lower" quality lens,
and quickly you will find out the most pics, under these and here described conditions have not accurate and desirable sharpness...

Yes Live View will usually be slightly more accurate but that's not the problem I am having as EXIFTool as well as the second info screen of the K3 does not report points in focus from live view. I really don't think my problem is actually focus its how the camera reports the event as being in focus or not.

I might just have to do a camera reset to see if that cures the problem.

panonski · 04-19-2017, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Larrymc

Yes Live View will usually be slightly more accurate but that's not the problem I am having as EXIFTool as well as the second info screen of the K3 does not report points in focus from live view. I really don't think my problem is actually focus its how the camera reports the event as being in focus or not.

I might just have to do a camera reset to see if that cures the problem.

I don't know right answer, and I was not also aware of exif confirmation about focus info, till this thread... I don't even know where is that exif info at all !

What is happening in your system ? Pics are sharp, but you sometimes not get correct exif info they're in focus ?

Or ?

**Larrymc** · 04-19-2017, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by panonski

I don't know right answer, and I was not also aware of exif confirmation about focus info, till this thread... I don't even know where is that exif info at all !

What is happening in your system ? Pics are sharp, but you sometimes not get correct exif info they're in focus ?

Or ?

Yes photos are sharp but sometimes the system doesn't report the selected focus point as being in focus. You can confirm the focus point by pushing the review button then the info button and scrolling to the second selection "Detailed information Screen". In the upper right corner of the detailed screen will be a replica of the AF selection with the in focus area in red otherwise it will be displayed in white.

The Lens focus data is contained in the "Maker Notes" section of EXIFTool. I use EXIFToolGUI which is a GUI adaptation of Phil Harvey's excellent EXIFTool program. Lots of good data is available from the tool. Google EXIFToolGUI and download the exe file.

**Larrymc** · 04-19-2017, 12:41 PM

Some how if the camera senses motion or panning and you trip the shutter button it will display the in focus point in red in the "Detailed Information Display" if the camera or if subject is stationary it will only show the selected point in white. This explains why my aircraft in flight photos show a focus point in focus.

panonski · 04-20-2017, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Larrymc

Some how if the camera senses motion or panning and you trip the shutter button it will display the in focus point in red in the "Detailed Information Display" if the camera or if subject is stationary it will only show the selected point in white. This explains why my aircraft in flight photos show a focus point in focus.

post this pics here I want to see couple of this shots

---------- Post added 04-20-17 at 01:59 AM ----------

Originally posted by Larrymc

Yes photos are sharp but sometimes the system doesn't report the selected focus point as being in focus. You can confirm the focus point by pushing the review button then the info button and scrolling to the second selection "Detailed information Screen". In the upper right corner of the detailed screen will be a replica of the AF selection with the in focus area in red otherwise it will be displayed in white.

The Lens focus data is contained in the "Maker Notes" section of EXIFTool. I use EXIFToolGUI which is a GUI adaptation of Phil Harvey's excellent EXIFTool program. Lots of good data is available from the tool. Google EXIFToolGUI and download the exe file.

I know some exif data is not visible in windows deafault jpeg properties info screen, but it wasn't missing that much for me, to actually download some tool for that.
...
But now, when you already mention this Phil Harvey's tool, I will download it, just to see, what it can read from my jpeg files here ..
I'm certainly glad you did solve your problem, or answer on your own questions

Cheers

Last edited by panonski; 04-20-2017 at 07:10 AM.

**Larrymc** · 04-20-2017, 09:21 AM

I'm not sure if you understood me about the in focus indications, the photos do not show the point of focus. That data is shown on the camera's "Detailed Information Screen".

Regarding the suggested program, make sure you download EXIFToolGUI and not EXIFTool. EXIFTool is a command line based program where EXIFToolGUI is graphical based and for many people easier to understand and use.

panonski · 04-20-2017, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Larrymc

I'm not sure if you understood me about the in focus indications, the photos do not show the point of focus. That data is shown on the camera's "Detailed Information Screen".

Regarding the suggested program, make sure you download EXIFToolGUI and not EXIFTool. EXIFTool is a command line based program where EXIFToolGUI is graphical based and for many people easier to understand and use.

Hey Larry, I already check it out for myself, and yes I can see that info in detail info screen, I understood you correctly .

But I'm not so sure is this in any way relevant information for anybody - If you want sharp eye of subject, your camera would be ( maybe ) focus on the shoulder, or chick, or anything but not the eye, and eye can be blurry, or less sharp then something else where focus was going by the camera.

So, info about - something was in focus - means nothing to me, I don't know why is that relevant to you

**Larrymc** · 04-20-2017, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by panonski

Hey Larry, I already check it out for myself, and yes I can see that info in detail info screen, I understood you correctly .

But I'm not so sure is this in any way relevant information for anybody - If you want sharp eye of subject, your camera would be ( maybe ) focus on the shoulder, or chick, or anything but not the eye, and eye can be blurry, or less sharp then something else where focus was going by the camera.

So, info about - something was in focus - means nothing to me, I don't know why is that relevant to you

Well yes it may be relevant to some people who have their camera set up for other than spot focusing. While photographing aircraft in flight I would like to know what the camera focused on because I use AF.C Expanded Area AF S with nine potential focus points to track the aircraft so knowing what area the camera focused on is handy to me especially when the target is well past 350 meters away. if you are panning following an aircraft then you don't really have time to worry about spot focusing....at least I don't.

For portraits I don't worry about that because I use spot focus so I know what point the camera was focusing on but moving targets are totally different..

panonski · 04-21-2017, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by Larrymc

Well yes it may be relevant to some people who have their camera set up for other than spot focusing. While photographing aircraft in flight I would like to know what the camera focused on because I use AF.C Expanded Area AF S with nine potential focus points to track the aircraft so knowing what area the camera focused on is handy to me especially when the target is well past 350 meters away. if you are panning following an aircraft then you don't really have time to worry about spot focusing....at least I don't.

For portraits I don't worry about that because I use spot focus so I know what point the camera was focusing on but moving targets are totally different..

so, when you use expanded focus points , camera detailed info shows which focus point was active ?

Yes, in that case is usefull... I was just take a quick look to this, only to see, focus point is showing...

cheers

**Larrymc** · 04-21-2017, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by panonski

so, when you use expanded focus points , camera detailed info shows which focus point was active ?

Yes, in that case is usefull... I was just take a quick look to this, only to see, focus point is showing...

cheers

Yes, now you've got it. I just wish there was better information from Ricoh about what triggers the focus points. I suspect that the AF module's "Real time scene analysis" detects motion either panning motion or relative subject motion but I'm not sure. I just know it works not how it works. I've also found that turning off "Hold AF Status" works better for me tracking aircraft in flight especially when they are headed inbound toward my position. I suspect with birds, though, some hold may be needed to keep focus under certain conditions.

04-18-2017, 03:36 PM	#1
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251	K3 inconsistent PDAF focus point in focus indication Hi folks, I was reading a thread this morning Focus point indicator on preview/playback - PentaxForums.com so I started checking my K3 and it is very inconsistent in reporting a PDAF in focus point even though the view finder indicates in focus and I get an focus beep. Over the past few years I have noticed that EXIFTool reports in the maker notes section the camera AFPointSelected and AFPointsInFocus fields and on occasion it reports that certain points are in focus but it mostly reports none in focus. I didn't think much of that till now. Last week I got a new Tamron SP AF 70-200mm F2.8 Di LD [IF] Macro (A001) so I tested it with a series of shots at our local airport on landing and departing aircraft out of 68 shots only two were out of focus and were reported in EXIFTools as being in focus and since I was using continuous AF it reported which point it was. I never checked the Info Screen second screen simply because I really did not know at the time I was shooting the aircraft that the second info screen actually showed the in focus points. Luckily I still have the DNG files on my second SD card so I checked the files in camera and all but two checked in focus. This morning I got out two pretty good lens, my smc DA35 2.4 AL and my smc DFA macro 100 f2.8 WR mounted them on my tripod and shot about twenty viewfinder indicated in focus shots and not a single one of them showed as in focus either on the in camera second info screen or EXIFTool. What gives do any of my fellow Pentaxians have this problem with their K3?

04-19-2017, 01:40 AM	#2
panonski Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Zagreb Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 624	I'm used to not trust (first) AF confirmation, specially in OVF. I always double tapping my shutter button to get slight improvement, after first focus beep. It's not very friendly specially when you must be very quick, but I'm sort of used to that. . Problem is more visible, in faster appertures, bellow "f - 6.7" . .. You can try for youself, look in OVF, nail your focus on desired point, get shoot, and after that, without moving camera from same spot, try again to focus. Or just double your focus find, by one more half press shutter. In many cases, you will find out, that lens will slight improve first focus point ( but yet - this "slight" is very visible in final pic ) , and you will see this slight change right away in OVF and you will hear it, because the lens drive will do the job one more time, like it was not quite right in focus. ( and it did not ) -- I think it's about the lens itself also. I use Sigma 17-70 almost all the time. It's not a bad lens, but compared to some of the primes, it's slow in focusing, specially in slower appertures over "f 19" . I'm not tested ( yet) corectness of some other lenses, or maybe primes vs zooms, but I believe this missfocusing in first attempt is sort of - mixed failure. -- With less good lens, you will get faster in missfocused area, and I believe you maybe won't even see this is happening with some very good prime ... I heared that in LIve V. focus is more accurate - mainly because in this mode camera use different technique to find focus point, and because of much weaker signal from mirror ( when you're not in LV ) - Add to this "medium" or "lower" quality lens, and quickly you will find out the most pics, under these and here described conditions have not accurate and desirable sharpness... Last edited by panonski; 04-19-2017 at 02:48 AM.

04-19-2017, 06:55 AM	#3
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by panonski I'm used to not trust (first) AF confirmation, specially in OVF. I always double tapping my shutter button to get slight improvement, after first focus beep. It's not very friendly specially when you must be very quick, but I'm sort of used to that. I try to "bump" the focus with aircraft in flight while in AF-C and it seems to work. I was using my new Tamron 70-200 at f2.8 (wide open) and got 66 in focus out of 68 shots. Yesterday the K-3 would not report any single tripod mounted shot as in focus with two pretty good primes at various aperture settings even when bumping the focus and using a cable release. I checked with SR on and SR off there has to be an explanation for this behavior. . Originally posted by panonski Problem is more visible, in faster appertures, bellow "f - 6.7" I get in focus even with f2.8 wide open with the Tamron. .. Originally posted by panonski You can try for youself, look in OVF, nail your focus on desired point, get shoot, and after that, without moving camera from same spot, try again to focus. Or just double your focus find, by one more half press shutter. I'm well aware of that and when I have time I do it too. Originally posted by panonski In many cases, you will find out, that lens will slight improve first focus point ( but yet - this "slight" is very visible in final pic ) , and you will see this slight change right away in OVF and you will hear it, because the lens drive will do the job one more time, like it was not quite right in focus. ( and it did not ) -- Originally posted by panonski I think it's about the lens itself also. I use Sigma 17-70 almost all the time. It's not a bad lens, but compared to some of the primes, it's slow in focusing, specially in slower appertures over "f 19" . I'm not tested ( yet) corectness of some other lenses, or maybe primes vs zooms, but I believe this missfocusing in first attempt is sort of - mixed failure. -- Originally posted by panonski With less good lens, you will get faster in missfocused area, and I believe you maybe won't even see this is happening with some very good prime Even with a rather "crappy" Sigma 70-300 f4-5.6 DG Macro I get in focus showing in the maker notes on EXIFTool so something else is happening ... Originally posted by panonski I heared that in LIve V. focus is more accurate - mainly because in this mode camera use different technique to find focus point, and because of much weaker signal from mirror ( when you're not in LV ) - Add to this "medium" or "lower" quality lens, and quickly you will find out the most pics, under these and here described conditions have not accurate and desirable sharpness... Yes Live View will usually be slightly more accurate but that's not the problem I am having as EXIFTool as well as the second info screen of the K3 does not report points in focus from live view. I really don't think my problem is actually focus its how the camera reports the event as being in focus or not. I might just have to do a camera reset to see if that cures the problem. Last edited by Larrymc; 04-19-2017 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Re compose

04-19-2017, 12:41 PM	#6
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251 Original Poster	Solved....I think? Some how if the camera senses motion or panning and you trip the shutter button it will display the in focus point in red in the "Detailed Information Display" if the camera or if subject is stationary it will only show the selected point in white. This explains why my aircraft in flight photos show a focus point in focus.

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04-19-2017, 10:17 AM	#4
panonski Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Zagreb Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 624	Originally posted by Larrymc Yes Live View will usually be slightly more accurate but that's not the problem I am having as EXIFTool as well as the second info screen of the K3 does not report points in focus from live view. I really don't think my problem is actually focus its how the camera reports the event as being in focus or not. I might just have to do a camera reset to see if that cures the problem. I don't know right answer, and I was not also aware of exif confirmation about focus info, till this thread... I don't even know where is that exif info at all ! What is happening in your system ? Pics are sharp, but you sometimes not get correct exif info they're in focus ? Or ?

04-19-2017, 11:16 AM	#5
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by panonski I don't know right answer, and I was not also aware of exif confirmation about focus info, till this thread... I don't even know where is that exif info at all ! What is happening in your system ? Pics are sharp, but you sometimes not get correct exif info they're in focus ? Or ? Yes photos are sharp but sometimes the system doesn't report the selected focus point as being in focus. You can confirm the focus point by pushing the review button then the info button and scrolling to the second selection "Detailed information Screen". In the upper right corner of the detailed screen will be a replica of the AF selection with the in focus area in red otherwise it will be displayed in white. The Lens focus data is contained in the "Maker Notes" section of EXIFTool. I use EXIFToolGUI which is a GUI adaptation of Phil Harvey's excellent EXIFTool program. Lots of good data is available from the tool. Google EXIFToolGUI and download the exe file.

04-20-2017, 01:44 AM	#7
panonski Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Zagreb Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 624	Originally posted by Larrymc Some how if the camera senses motion or panning and you trip the shutter button it will display the in focus point in red in the "Detailed Information Display" if the camera or if subject is stationary it will only show the selected point in white. This explains why my aircraft in flight photos show a focus point in focus. post this pics here I want to see couple of this shots ---------- Post added 04-20-17 at 01:59 AM ---------- Originally posted by Larrymc Yes photos are sharp but sometimes the system doesn't report the selected focus point as being in focus. You can confirm the focus point by pushing the review button then the info button and scrolling to the second selection "Detailed information Screen". In the upper right corner of the detailed screen will be a replica of the AF selection with the in focus area in red otherwise it will be displayed in white. The Lens focus data is contained in the "Maker Notes" section of EXIFTool. I use EXIFToolGUI which is a GUI adaptation of Phil Harvey's excellent EXIFTool program. Lots of good data is available from the tool. Google EXIFToolGUI and download the exe file. I know some exif data is not visible in windows deafault jpeg properties info screen, but it wasn't missing that much for me, to actually download some tool for that. ... But now, when you already mention this Phil Harvey's tool, I will download it, just to see, what it can read from my jpeg files here .. I'm certainly glad you did solve your problem, or answer on your own questions Cheers Last edited by panonski; 04-20-2017 at 07:10 AM.

04-20-2017, 09:21 AM	#8
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251 Original Poster	I'm not sure if you understood me about the in focus indications, the photos do not show the point of focus. That data is shown on the camera's "Detailed Information Screen". Regarding the suggested program, make sure you download EXIFToolGUI and not EXIFTool. EXIFTool is a command line based program where EXIFToolGUI is graphical based and for many people easier to understand and use.

04-20-2017, 11:49 AM	#9
panonski Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Zagreb Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 624	Originally posted by Larrymc I'm not sure if you understood me about the in focus indications, the photos do not show the point of focus. That data is shown on the camera's "Detailed Information Screen". Regarding the suggested program, make sure you download EXIFToolGUI and not EXIFTool. EXIFTool is a command line based program where EXIFToolGUI is graphical based and for many people easier to understand and use. Hey Larry, I already check it out for myself, and yes I can see that info in detail info screen, I understood you correctly . But I'm not so sure is this in any way relevant information for anybody - If you want sharp eye of subject, your camera would be ( maybe ) focus on the shoulder, or chick, or anything but not the eye, and eye can be blurry, or less sharp then something else where focus was going by the camera. So, info about - something was in focus - means nothing to me, I don't know why is that relevant to you

04-20-2017, 08:26 PM	#10
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by panonski Hey Larry, I already check it out for myself, and yes I can see that info in detail info screen, I understood you correctly . But I'm not so sure is this in any way relevant information for anybody - If you want sharp eye of subject, your camera would be ( maybe ) focus on the shoulder, or chick, or anything but not the eye, and eye can be blurry, or less sharp then something else where focus was going by the camera. So, info about - something was in focus - means nothing to me, I don't know why is that relevant to you Well yes it may be relevant to some people who have their camera set up for other than spot focusing. While photographing aircraft in flight I would like to know what the camera focused on because I use AF.C Expanded Area AF S with nine potential focus points to track the aircraft so knowing what area the camera focused on is handy to me especially when the target is well past 350 meters away. if you are panning following an aircraft then you don't really have time to worry about spot focusing....at least I don't. For portraits I don't worry about that because I use spot focus so I know what point the camera was focusing on but moving targets are totally different..

04-21-2017, 01:22 AM	#11
panonski Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Zagreb Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 624	Originally posted by Larrymc Well yes it may be relevant to some people who have their camera set up for other than spot focusing. While photographing aircraft in flight I would like to know what the camera focused on because I use AF.C Expanded Area AF S with nine potential focus points to track the aircraft so knowing what area the camera focused on is handy to me especially when the target is well past 350 meters away. if you are panning following an aircraft then you don't really have time to worry about spot focusing....at least I don't. For portraits I don't worry about that because I use spot focus so I know what point the camera was focusing on but moving targets are totally different.. so, when you use expanded focus points , camera detailed info shows which focus point was active ? Yes, in that case is usefull... I was just take a quick look to this, only to see, focus point is showing... cheers

04-21-2017, 06:14 AM	#12
Larrymc Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Mississippi, USA Posts: 5,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by panonski so, when you use expanded focus points , camera detailed info shows which focus point was active ? Yes, in that case is usefull... I was just take a quick look to this, only to see, focus point is showing... cheers Yes, now you've got it. I just wish there was better information from Ricoh about what triggers the focus points. I suspect that the AF module's "Real time scene analysis" detects motion either panning motion or relative subject motion but I'm not sure. I just know it works not how it works. I've also found that turning off "Hold AF Status" works better for me tracking aircraft in flight especially when they are headed inbound toward my position. I suspect with birds, though, some hold may be needed to keep focus under certain conditions.