Limitations to the AA simulator

**UncleVanya** · 11-26-2020, 10:57 PM

Pentax K-3 Review - Selective Low Pass Filter

I want aware of the maximum shutter speed until I read about the Sony RX1R mk II having no limitation on max shutter speed with it's AA simulator.

Am I the only one who didn't know? Also have subsequent cameras improved on this?

Fogel70 · 11-26-2020, 11:52 PM

As Pentax use the SR mechanism for AA-simulation, it is obvious that there will be a limit on how fast the sensor can move because of the big mass it has to move.
Like they wrote in the link. During AA-simulation the sensor still moves something like 50x faster than for normal image stabilization.

I do not know any details on the Sony RX1RII, but sony must have chosen a much different design for AA-simulation that do not rely on moving as large and heavy part.

Edit: It seems like Sony is using an electronically controlled variable optical filter. So it is not using any moving parts. Which is why it works for any shutter speed.

**UncleVanya** · 11-27-2020, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

Edit: It seems like Sony is using an electronically controlled variable optical filter. So it is not using any moving parts. Which is why it works for any shutter speed.

That's correct, but it was the comment about the Pentax that caught my attention. I had no idea about this limitation - I'm curious if others knew and if this has changed since the k-3.

Fogel70 · 11-27-2020, 08:34 AM

For me the problem with AA-simulation is that it is so rarely needed, and when it is needed I usually discover it long after the shot is captured.
I can not recall that I ever switched on AA-simulation on my K3 II.

So if I need to remove moire, I do it in post processing.

It seems like the latest released Pentax DSLR (K1 II) still has the same limitation.

**BigMackCam** · 11-27-2020, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

It seems like Sony is using an electronically controlled variable optical filter. So it is not using any moving parts. Which is why it works for any shutter speed.

Interesting... is there any additional light loss from Sony's AA filter, or is it incorporated into the Bayer CFA?

Nikon applied for a patent on an optical-filter-based AA solution some years back. I don't believe it's ever appeared on any production camera, but I might be wrong about that...

**UncleVanya** · 11-27-2020, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Interesting... is there any additional light loss from Sony's AA filter, or is it incorporated into the Bayer CFA?

Nikon applied for a patent on an optical-filter-based AA solution some years back. I don't believe it's ever appeared on any production camera, but I might be wrong about that...

I'm clear on the Nikon version in their patent. I'm not clear on the Sony one.

**BigMackCam** · 11-27-2020, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

I'm clear on the Nikon version in their patent. I'm not clear on the Sony one.

Thanks, Brad.

In response to your OP, I wasn't aware of the limitation either. I guess it's most commonly an issue if you're shooting very fast lenses at wide apertures in extremely bright light - or am I missing something? I suppose the solution, for those who might encounter the limitation, would be to carry a 1 or 2-stop ND filter...

**Mikesul** · 11-27-2020, 01:55 PM

This is what TechRadar had to say about the Sony OLPF:

The world's first variable optical low-pass filter (OLPF) is coupled with the same full-frame 42.4 million pixel sensor which can be found in the A7R II compact system camera. In short, this means that you can switch the effects of an OLPF off or on. If you're photographing something which is likely to be prone to moire patterning, like fine patterns or textures, you can use it, but for anything else, such as landscapes or portraits, where detail is key, you can switch it off

Sony has invented the world's first variable optical low pass filter.
This variable OLPF is a liquid crystal filter which sits in front of the sensor. Different voltages are applied to it depending on the setting you've chosen to use (Hi, Standard or Off). Not only can you choose between these three options, you can also bracket to shoot with all three in quick succession, choosing the best result afterwards. This technology only has an impact on still image shots. It can't be used when recording video...

Breakfastographer · 11-27-2020, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

That's correct, but it was the comment about the Pentax that caught my attention. I had no idea about this limitation - I'm curious if others knew and if this has changed since the k-3.

The limitation has always been there, and some of us knew.

Paul the Sunman · 11-27-2020, 07:21 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Fogel70

For me the problem with AA-simulation is that it is so rarely needed, and when it is needed I usually discover it long after the shot is captured.
I can not recall that I ever switched on AA-simulation on my K3 II.

The K3 and K1 both allow 2 or 3-frame bracketing of the AA-filter, if you're not sure.

Breakfastographer · 11-28-2020, 01:50 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Paul the Sunman

The K3 and K1 both allow 2 or 3-frame bracketing of the AA-filter, if you're not sure.

That is good advice.

One is sometimes tempted to wonder whether one should just bracket everything... AA filter, aperture, exposure, ... twenty files for every composition, or thereabouts. At least it should pass quickly with a K-3 III - less than 1.5 seconds of asking your scene to stay still.

**UncleVanya** · 11-28-2020, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Breakfastographer

That is good advice.

One is sometimes tempted to wonder whether one should just bracket everything... AA filter, aperture, exposure, ... twenty files for every composition, or thereabouts. At least it should pass quickly with a K-3 III - less than 1.5 seconds of asking your scene to stay still.

That seems like cheating. Lol.

11-26-2020, 10:57 PM	#1
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,452	Limitations to the AA simulator Pentax K-3 Review - Selective Low Pass Filter I want aware of the maximum shutter speed until I read about the Sony RX1R mk II having no limitation on max shutter speed with it's AA simulator. Am I the only one who didn't know? Also have subsequent cameras improved on this?

11-26-2020, 11:52 PM	#2
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	As Pentax use the SR mechanism for AA-simulation, it is obvious that there will be a limit on how fast the sensor can move because of the big mass it has to move. Like they wrote in the link. During AA-simulation the sensor still moves something like 50x faster than for normal image stabilization. I do not know any details on the Sony RX1RII, but sony must have chosen a much different design for AA-simulation that do not rely on moving as large and heavy part. Edit: It seems like Sony is using an electronically controlled variable optical filter. So it is not using any moving parts. Which is why it works for any shutter speed. Last edited by Fogel70; 11-27-2020 at 02:37 AM.

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11-27-2020, 07:57 AM	#3
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,452 Original Poster	Originally posted by Fogel70 Edit: It seems like Sony is using an electronically controlled variable optical filter. So it is not using any moving parts. Which is why it works for any shutter speed. That's correct, but it was the comment about the Pentax that caught my attention. I had no idea about this limitation - I'm curious if others knew and if this has changed since the k-3.

11-27-2020, 08:34 AM	#4
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	For me the problem with AA-simulation is that it is so rarely needed, and when it is needed I usually discover it long after the shot is captured. I can not recall that I ever switched on AA-simulation on my K3 II. So if I need to remove moire, I do it in post processing. It seems like the latest released Pentax DSLR (K1 II) still has the same limitation.

11-27-2020, 10:32 AM	#5
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,687	Originally posted by Fogel70 It seems like Sony is using an electronically controlled variable optical filter. So it is not using any moving parts. Which is why it works for any shutter speed. Interesting... is there any additional light loss from Sony's AA filter, or is it incorporated into the Bayer CFA? Nikon applied for a patent on an optical-filter-based AA solution some years back. I don't believe it's ever appeared on any production camera, but I might be wrong about that...

11-27-2020, 12:20 PM	#6
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,452 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam Interesting... is there any additional light loss from Sony's AA filter, or is it incorporated into the Bayer CFA? Nikon applied for a patent on an optical-filter-based AA solution some years back. I don't believe it's ever appeared on any production camera, but I might be wrong about that... I'm clear on the Nikon version in their patent. I'm not clear on the Sony one.

11-27-2020, 12:36 PM	#7
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,687	Originally posted by UncleVanya I'm clear on the Nikon version in their patent. I'm not clear on the Sony one. Thanks, Brad. In response to your OP, I wasn't aware of the limitation either. I guess it's most commonly an issue if you're shooting very fast lenses at wide apertures in extremely bright light - or am I missing something? I suppose the solution, for those who might encounter the limitation, would be to carry a 1 or 2-stop ND filter...

11-27-2020, 01:55 PM	#8
Mikesul Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,594	This is what TechRadar had to say about the Sony OLPF: The world's first variable optical low-pass filter (OLPF) is coupled with the same full-frame 42.4 million pixel sensor which can be found in the A7R II compact system camera. In short, this means that you can switch the effects of an OLPF off or on. If you're photographing something which is likely to be prone to moire patterning, like fine patterns or textures, you can use it, but for anything else, such as landscapes or portraits, where detail is key, you can switch it off Sony has invented the world's first variable optical low pass filter. This variable OLPF is a liquid crystal filter which sits in front of the sensor. Different voltages are applied to it depending on the setting you've chosen to use (Hi, Standard or Off). Not only can you choose between these three options, you can also bracket to shoot with all three in quick succession, choosing the best result afterwards. This technology only has an impact on still image shots. It can't be used when recording video...

11-27-2020, 02:57 PM	#9
Breakfastographer Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 673	Originally posted by UncleVanya That's correct, but it was the comment about the Pentax that caught my attention. I had no idea about this limitation - I'm curious if others knew and if this has changed since the k-3. The limitation has always been there, and some of us knew.

11-27-2020, 07:21 PM - 2 Likes	#10
Paul the Sunman Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,846	Originally posted by Fogel70 For me the problem with AA-simulation is that it is so rarely needed, and when it is needed I usually discover it long after the shot is captured. I can not recall that I ever switched on AA-simulation on my K3 II. The K3 and K1 both allow 2 or 3-frame bracketing of the AA-filter, if you're not sure.

11-28-2020, 01:50 AM - 1 Like	#11
Breakfastographer Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 673	Originally posted by Paul the Sunman The K3 and K1 both allow 2 or 3-frame bracketing of the AA-filter, if you're not sure. That is good advice. One is sometimes tempted to wonder whether one should just bracket everything... AA filter, aperture, exposure, ... twenty files for every composition, or thereabouts. At least it should pass quickly with a K-3 III - less than 1.5 seconds of asking your scene to stay still.

11-28-2020, 07:47 AM	#12
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,452 Original Poster	Originally posted by Breakfastographer That is good advice. One is sometimes tempted to wonder whether one should just bracket everything... AA filter, aperture, exposure, ... twenty files for every composition, or thereabouts. At least it should pass quickly with a K-3 III - less than 1.5 seconds of asking your scene to stay still. That seems like cheating. Lol.