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11-14-2013, 04:40 AM   #496
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TripodQuest:
QuoteQuote:
Correct me if I'm wrong...
No, I don't think that's possible within the context you listed.
Broadcast ENG camera's a pretty much all limited to four channels maximum, at 48kHz.
Anything more and you start pulling out gear like Sound Devices 788's, and feed the camera a stereo down-mix for syncing purposes.


OSV:
Mjpeg is everywhere in broadcast - it is the standard signal used on every SDI and HD-SDI connected piece of equipment - Camera's, EVS's, CCU's, Vision Switchers, Routers, Graphics overlays, Links, everything that is connected with CoAx and Fibre transmitting SDI signals. It may be phased out in the next ten years as more systems move to Ethernet distribution and connection, but right now, it is the defacto standard all around the world.

Sidetracking to editing histories,... yep, Mjpeg via an IOMega Buz with the hacked drivers to capture footage from SVHS cameras - I went from that to DV with a Canon XL-1, rather then go to SP.

QuoteQuote:
there is no fix for rolling shutter, it's absolutely one of the worst things that can happen to your footage.
There's no true 'fix', but most of the latest versions of NLE Applications have filter presets to deal with it - I edit in GV Edius, and version 7 has got a pretty comprehensive tool for doing corrections.
And yeah, I get the nusiance factor of it compared to the Global Shutter we all love on CCD's.
Bumping the shutter speed up does help when panning, or for sports, but it looks strange when shooting drama, and you have to be very careful how fast you move when using a SteadiCam type rig.


Kadajawi:
QuoteQuote:
Btw., if the h264 stream is only consisting of i frames... in what sense is it better than MJPEG, apart from maybe a slightly more efficient i frame encoder?
h.264 i-frame offers a smaller file size, and corresponding lower file writing requirements, for the same end user display experience.

And I'd like Compressed CinemaDNG for the post production colour grading - the extra latitude it gives you creatively is worth all the hassles and storage issues. And as it's an open standard, Pentax wouldn't need to be paying royalty fees to implement it. Give the K3 has a UHS-1 controller, it has more then adequate bandwidth to move the data.


JohnMFlores :
QuoteQuote:
Yes separate audio and syncing in post has become much easier with the latest digital tools. I'm often a single person crew though, and seek simplicity where possible
There's a competitor to the Atomos products, whose name is escaping me tonight, but has HDMI in, plus Balanced XLRs, about a 7 inch screen, and a dock for an SSD to record ProRes on, used it a few months back on the back of a Sony F3, might make the K3 a very useful camera for single handed operation if it has uncompressed clean feed HDMI output.
(and saw your next post after typing that,..)

QuoteQuote:
This is only firmware v1.0, folks.
Hope you're right Jack. And kinda hoping there's some hidden option that John has missed. K3 with clean feed would suit me perfectly.

11-14-2013, 04:48 AM   #497
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
HDMI out of K-3 is not clean.
If is't not changed since the K-5, it won't be HD first of all

Last time I checked, they make an 1080p signal by simply making 2x2 pixel blocks from every VGA pixel.
11-14-2013, 05:05 AM - 1 Like   #498
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If is't not changed since the K-5, it won't be HD first of all

Last time I checked, they make an 1080p signal by simply making 2x2 pixel blocks from every VGA pixel.
see, this is why i want raw video, you can trust the manufacturers, they say 1080p and then you look at the footage and it's too soft to be 1080 or in some cases it's really 1080p (that hasn't been upscaled/interpolated) if on the card but 720p or 540p if you output it via hdmi... so better to just deal with the raw.
11-14-2013, 05:17 AM   #499
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
This is only firmware v1.0, folks.

Jack
And Pentax has ever fixed stuff like this?

Yes, the Panasonic has 3 CMOS sensors... (which should have rolling shutter, no? Haven't tried that yet). On the K-5 it is pretty much non-existent though, unless I REALLY try to provoke it. Thanks to SR. Hot pixels are much more of an issue. In any case, low light performance of the Panasonic is abysmal. And I get deinterlacing artefacts when recording 50p (!). But that may just be a screw up on Panasonics side and won't speak for all cameras like this. But they simply use 1/6" sensors, and even if there are 3 of them that makes for bad video with low dynamic range. One channel constantly seems to blow out. At best you'll find 2/3", and then you're already looking at semi-pro gear.

Btw., aren't many movies done at 2K in the end, even though they are shot at 4K? Like, at least last year or so...

And yeah, the GH3 uses all pixels, and that shows. Sadly others don't, but still I prefer the output over video cameras. Even if video cameras are a bit sharper. I just don't like the look, and they seem to fall apart easier.

11-14-2013, 05:25 AM   #500
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Btw., aren't many movies done at 2K in the end, even though they are shot at 4K? Like, at least last year or so...
that's exactly the reason I want 4K or 10-14bit raw, because if you take 1080p video that's already compressed/subsampled/created from less than 1960*1080 effective pixels each of which codes for at least R, G, B and luminance and start editing it, what you end up isn't really sharp 1080p footage. If you start with 2.5-4k raw or at the very least 2k raw... or if you start with video that's been downsampled to 1080p from a lot more than 1960x1080 effective pixels then you have a much better chance of being able to get the (more or less crisp) 1080p end result you want
11-14-2013, 05:31 AM   #501
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Has Pentax ever fixed stuff like this?
After all the comments about the K-01's AutoISO when Manual lens, or manual Iris position was used, in firmware 1.0, 1.01, 1.02 and 1.03, they locked it down in 1.04 and I am forever grateful for it.
So yes, they do fix stuff like this, all they need is our respectful feedback, so they know what the end user wants.

Clean Feed 'true' HD out would be an absolute must for me ( just like turning the HDMI on during Record for the K-01 would be really really really awesome ).

And given the K3 does not have an Analog video output, I'd be hoping there's no down-scaling of the vision for the LCD before the HDMI. The graphic overlays aren't a good sign for that tho', So Raw/CineDNG becomes a must have too, even just to keep the brand competitive.


John: Just watched your SR/No SR video, if you do another, can you include some side to side pans at different speeds?
And thanks for uploading test footage, the time and effort is appreciated.
11-14-2013, 05:48 AM   #502
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
And thanks for uploading test footage, the time and effort is appreciated.
indeed! also liked the cat test... To be honest, i am quite pleased with what i saw sofar.
and as far as SR is concerned. I'd love a test of it with a tele, as to me, that is the trickiest part with the K01 SR on.
11-14-2013, 05:58 AM - 2 Likes   #503
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
This is only firmware v1.0, folks.

Jack

When you not JUST have the right options in version 1.0 fw, from petnax YOU CAN'T FORGET to see something new about, in next firmwares..
look the firmwares live in k7 , k5... 2-3 firmwares with NOTHING of NOTHING new,,only update for new pentax lens or SD , compatibility...AND STOP!
many more WAS possibile to make on FW k7 !!!! (video options) and with k5, too...BUT PENTAX made nothing....

SO what you hope about Pentax K3 firmware's ?!? new options/setting in video mode??? a big dream..yes...hope, hope..

HDMI output not ok for rec external ...WAS SURE so.. and 4.2.0 8bit ofcourse... we are on 2014...

11-14-2013, 06:33 AM   #504
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Oh, lookee,...

Some reading for non-owners.

Operation Manuals Download : Support & Service | RICOH IMAGING
11-14-2013, 07:08 AM   #505
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Pentax K-3 Video Discussion

QuoteOriginally posted by tripodquest Quote
so better to just deal with the raw.
One may wish for this, but simple math would tell you that it isn't ready for primetime yet.
Take e.g., CinemaDNG and you end up with 100MB/s data streams. More at 60p, much more with 4k, less if the processor can compress fast enough. But we are approaching Gbps bitrates here!

It may be great for professionals with rigs / external recording devices or working on a one card/take basis. But IMHO it is not yet relevant for consumer devices.

OTOH, more professional compressed output options (like ProRes, log-graded etc,) would be an immediate way to go now. And of course, make the sensors and processors fast enough to read out the entire sensor in video.
11-14-2013, 07:34 AM   #506
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
One may wish for this, but simple math would tell you that it isn't ready for primetime yet.
Take e.g., CinemaDNG and you end up with 100MB/s data streams. More at 60p, much more with 4k, less if the processor can compress fast enough. But we are approaching Gbps bitrates here!

It may be great for professionals with rigs / external recording devices or working on a one card/take basis. But IMHO it is not yet relevant for consumer devices.

OTOH, more professional compressed output options (like ProRes, log-graded etc,) would be an immediate way to go now. And of course, make the sensors and processors fast enough to read out the entire sensor in video.
for any larger production professionals hardly use cards unless you're talking about special 256GB cards in different proprietory formats, or shooting a quick commercial. of course you can do professional work with canon 5d mkiii or 6d and record on cards, depending on what you do, or even dvs but that only lets you do some things. for raw video, I don't understand what the problem is, just buy 1-2 TB of SSD harddrives and your good to go? of course you need a decent computer and a video card to process it but if you do video you should have it anyway... I don't care if I get 2k or 4k or raw or motionjpg as long as i can get the dynamic range and the quality I'm after. 1960x1080r*or*g*or*b interpolated bayer output probably can't give me that. too tiny a sensor also probably can't give me that which is why i've been sceptical of the black magic cameras, but they seem to pack quite a lot of powerful stuff in such a small package... I'm leaning towards black magic at the moment but I have a lot of research to do before I'm even close to making a decision. I want to be able to produce good professional video with the camera I buy for video, and i want to get it right the first time so I won't have to buy a new camera for video in the next X years. i also want to be able to exercise my artistic freedom and make my visions come true. that's why the off-the-shelf 1080p found in every consumer/prosumer dslr today hardly seems like a lasting investment, especially since even the "better" dslrs don't seem to (want to) deliver even decent 1080p video which is the least you expect. At least Canon has an excuse: they don't want their cheaper cameras to give you the results that their $13,000 cameras can give you, it's a marketing tactic. Other companies simply don't seem to take video seriously enough, or only offer it to people who are happy with the 1080p avhc/quicktime/whatever they're getting. I'm not happy with it, it's not what I want. I only shoot in RAW when I take photographs, why would I be happy with the JPG equivalent of video? unless i'm shooting it for youtube, but if that's all I wanted to do with video... I don't even know how to end that sentence, that's how little sense it makes. I want the same benefits from video that I get from RAW images. I have worked with 4K video before. Try it for yourself and then tell me you're happy with heavily compressed 1080p in 24 Mbps bitrates. It's great if it's enough for your workflow, enough for your needs, enough for everything you ever do. I want to do more, it's not enough for me, simple as that. "more professional compressed output options (like ProRes, log-graded etc,) would be an immediate way to go now. 2.5K-4K ProRes/DNxHD/CineForm is fine by me, I never said anything about uncompressed RAW.

"it's not relevant for consumer devices" I'm not interested in consumer devices. I wouldn't be the least bit bothered if consumer devices stopped existing. they are largely a disappointment anyway.

Last edited by tripodquest; 11-14-2013 at 07:44 AM.
11-14-2013, 07:52 AM   #507
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In other words: pentax k-3 is an okay consumer device when it comes to video. that's all it is. on another note: movies have even been shot with an iphone: A Horror Movie Shot Entirely On An iPhone | TG Daily does that make iphone a professional movie/video camera? by no means. it just means that a professional wanted to push the limits of his creativity by using a consumer device for movie production. that doesn't make the device anything but what it is. if someone decided to shoot a movie with the k-3, it still wouldn't make the k-3 a professional video camera.
11-14-2013, 08:07 AM - 1 Like   #508
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The GH3 is the better K-3

I always felt we all here around Pentax were aware about it's limited efforts towards video.
Pentax has up to now ducked back behind the big names - Pentax still doesn't want to
compete with those above, either because they can't afford it - or they want to resist it.
And the professional market remains closed for them of course ...

Most Pentax friends only temporarily even think of "misusing" their camera for video, and
even seem to dislike this additional feature - being bored with it they somehow try to accept
that and push it aside as quickly as possible ... because they just want their camera for stills.

Pentax seems to know they are not taken serious for video dreams, and may even wonder
that some still do ask that much of them ... kind of begging to have it made for video. They in
a way feel forced to drag their video-tools a little further on and act as if they do as wanted.

But without success - in the eyes of artists or professionals who just want an affordable good
camera for easy and nice video because they once invested in glass and stuff ... Pentax just
recently found out they can't stay away behind these growing hopes forever ... and somehow
have to move now ... slowly ... but only half-heartedly ...

We are just a few here ... and they made up a Sub-Forum for us freaks. But even in reviews now
5 % of the information is carefully covered by video-details. Slowly, slowly you get some deeper
infos but only by those who have tried it out themselfes. So astounding to watch this - but a great
desillusion to see to have put your desires in to this company, unable or unwilling to go for it.
Sorrow and anger do rise ... which can be silly of course, but we can see it as meaningfull too.

Panasonic for some time not even looked at, by some, have developed beyond APS-C level now -
in terms of true video-configuration. They are able to surpass the limitations of that small sensor -
surprising still to some. In search for rich DOF they have found shelter in a Voigtländer Nokton 0,95
On the web now you can watch videos where they compare the GH3 with a Canon 5D Mark III -
and really, if you do watch that open-minded you can see Panasonic has done a far out good job.

Today I saw in my mail that even a movie has been done with some (10 !) GH3s:
(in German tounge only yet)

Last edited by TomGarn; 11-14-2013 at 09:24 PM.
11-14-2013, 11:41 AM   #509
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
Mjpeg is everywhere in broadcast - it is the standard signal used on every SDI and HD-SDI connected piece of equipment - Camera's, EVS's, CCU's, Vision Switchers, Routers, Graphics overlays, Links, everything that is connected with CoAx and Fibre transmitting SDI signals. It may be phased out in the next ten years as more systems move to Ethernet distribution and connection, but right now, it is the defacto standard all around the world.
the hd-sdi specification is for uncompressed video only, at something like 1.4Gigs, while mjpeg is an intraframe-only compression scheme... that said, the sdi connector is indeed used for non-standard things like security cameras.

read it in broadcast engineering magazine, circa 2008:

"M-JPEG (Motion JPEG) is an older and much less compressed format compared to MPEG-1 or MPEG-2. M-JPEG’s main characteristic and advantage is that it only compresses the information within a frame of video (intraframe compression). This means that all the information for every frame (picture) is sent so that no frame is dependent on the frame before or after. When editing, a splice can be made at any point without reference to any other frame. These days, however, M-JPEG is considered an obsolete format only kept alive in legacy systems; it has been replaced with several newer digital video formats that combine smaller file sizes with higher picture quality and editing ability."
Digital file formats | HDTV content from Broadcast Engineering

I think that Ethernet use in broadcast engineering is standard, but there are actually people pushing the newer hdmi specs for infrastructure, believe it or not:
TVTechnology: McAdams On: What HDMI 2.0 Means for 4KTV
11-14-2013, 01:31 PM   #510
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
back when camcorderinfo.com used to do a full-on suite of video resolution tests on all of the camcorders that they reviewed... what platform was the winner?
in case anyone is interested, I managed to dig up a few pages of video resolution test results at camcorderinfo.com... one of the canon camcorders resolved around 1,000 lines, but I couldn't locate that page.

I mention this only so that people who need to shoot prosumer video can get a better idea of the tradeoffs involved with camcorders, vs. dslrs that shoot video:

Vixia HF G30 camcorder, $1,700, 2013, this is probably the one to get for prosumer use:
In bright conditions, we measured 850 lw/ph horizontal and 800 lw/ph vertical when the camera is panned on those axes. It blew the doors off the scores we saw from the G20, largely thanks to its 28 Mbps 60p option."
Canon Vixia HF G30 Camcorder Review - Reviewed.com Camcorders

Canon EOS 1D X, $6,800, 2012, 18 megapixel sensor:
"We found the Canon 1D X was able to produce sharpness results of approximately 700 lw/ph vertical sharpness (around 600 lw/ph horizontal) with the 24-70mm f/2.8L series lens stopped down to f/9. We found the sharpness was much worse with the lens wide open, but there is still relatively narrow depth of field with the f/9, so the image still has that "full-frame aesthetic" that so many videographers love... We tested the Canon 1D X with the 24-70mm f/2.8L USM lens. This is the "original" version of the lens, as version II is just shipping as of this publication. The "original" version that we've used is notorious for having a wild copy-to-copy variation, but we've double-checked our numbers with the folks over at LensRentals.com, who have tested over 120 copies of the lens. All the sharpness numbers for our copy meet their acceptable standard, so our numbers are representative of the quality you could expect with a Canon 1D X and an off-the-shelf version of the original 24-70mm f/2.8L.
The new version of this lens is supposed to be dramatically sharper, however, than the lens we tested. This will impact our results and our samples, many of which look soft out of the camera (with no sharpening applied)."
Canon EOS 1D X Digital Camera Review - Reviewed.com Cameras

"Canon EOS 5D Mark III, $3,500, 2012:
... we found that the Mark III was able to render, at best, around 700 line pairs per picture height (LPPH) of sharpness horizontally, and 750 vertically with its IPB compression (utilizing a 50mm f/1.8 lens at f/7.1, the kit lens was less sharp, getting around 600 LPPH horizontally and 750 vertically). ALL-I compression actually looked a little bit softer here, though both types lost most of their sharpness when the camera was moving... One aspect that is not improved is the rolling shutter effect, preventing the effective use of quick pans or capture of truly fast moving subjects... Until global shutter technology (as used on most CCD sensors typically found in camcorders and high-end video cameras) catches up to the point it can be used on these sensors, we don't anticipate much improvement in this area for DSLRs. "
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Digital Camera Review - Reviewed.com Cameras
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