[osv]

Any idea if they're using an IPB grouping?
Canon 5D Mark III -IPB contains more detail and has less artifacts than ALL-I [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

I ran some more tests on that sample K-3 video... the short answer is yes, it's an ipb gop.

the format profile of High@L4.0 listed below strongly suggests that it's avchd, and since the "high" level profile is the most efficient avchd profile, that is good news.

the criticism might be, that the 21.4Mbps variable bitrate is substantially less than the 28Mbps bitrate that the Canon Vixia G30 prosumer camcorder uses... these bitrates are comparable, because they are apples vs. apples, they both use the "high" avchd profile.

however, if you shoot the K-3 in film style mode, which Rex alluded to earlier, you'll have the camera locked down on the tripod, you won't hardly zoom or pan, unless it's very slow... doing that, I think that you'll get good footage... that's the way that Hollywood has had to shoot it for decades, in order to make that super slow 24fps film framerate bearable.

the plus i'd expect that you might get with the k-3 over the Vixia should be more dynamic range, and possibly better low-light capability, but that would have to be tested... the dof range would certainly be better!

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=15
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 17s 17ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 21.4 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.345
Stream size : 43.4 MiB (96%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2013-11-10 10:28:02
Tagged date : UTC 2013-11-10 10:28:02

Audio
ID : 2
Format : PCM
Format settings, Endianness : Big
Format settings, Sign : Signed
Codec ID : twos
Duration : 17s 17ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 768 Kbps
Channel(s) : 1 channel
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Stream size : 1.56 MiB (3%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2013-11-10 10:28:02
Tagged date : UTC 2013-11-10 10:28:02

Understanding AVCHD:
3D CineCast: Understanding AVCHD

[PiDicus Rex]

FalconEyes: I really don't think Compressed CinemaDNG is to great of a thing to ask - BMD are doing 12bit Log CinemaDNG to the SD card in the Pocket Camera, from an s16 sensor, there's no reason why other manufacturers won't soon follow their lead, especially given the age and limited specifications of the cameras the Magic Lantern group have been able to get Raw out of.
Having a BMD style Film Mode / Rec 709 Mode, same as choosing Video or S-Log preferences on Sony cameras, would enable any DSLR/MILC to be useful to both Professional and Enthusiast users.

[PiDicus Rex]

It's a pleasure to read posts from some (rare) Pros like you. I've learned many ideas . But ..if I was pro videographer, I don't think any Pentax would be my choice . I'm sorry to say that Pentax would be the bottom in my list.

Thanks for the ego-stroke Tom

Pentax wasn't initially my first choice either. I was looking at getting a Canon XL-H1s, an external recorder and the EF to XL lens adapter, or a Panasonic HPX-502.
Putting a really decent B4 mount lens on the HPX became prohibitive very quickly, and finding someone willing to part with a H1s is rare.

I thought about the K-01 when it was released, as I've had a P30n since new in '91, and I had lenses to suit, but the lack of HDMI out to record from killed that idea until the local price dropped to a point where a GoPro3 Black was more expensive.

It took me about 12 hours from purchase until the time I updated the firmware to 1.03,.. mostly because I was on a film set for 10 hours.

Since the latest firmware, I've only grown to love the camera more, and it's reminded me that my experiences going back to my P30n were always enjoyable, so I haven't regretted the purchase, and the little camera has continuously suprised in just how capable it is once you get a chance to prove it.
To the point where I'm looking over ebay and gumtree adverts for a second one..

Iff there is ever a K-02, it'll be high on my wish list, and I'll be watching the K3 closely, if they can enable a clean feed output of the HDMI, I'll be lining up to grab one.

[TomGarn]

Thanks for the ego-stroke Tom
... Pentax wasn't initially my first choice either.
... I thought about the K-01 when it was released
... Since the latest firmware, I've only grown to love the camera more,
... the little camera has continuously suprised in just how capable it is once you get a chance to prove it.
... If there is ever a K-02, it'll be high on my wish list, and I'll be watchin

If you can accept ego-strokes, you belong to the blessed few. I can only bow down to you :-)

About cameras this is a constant process and trouble to think about what it can be used for ...
if it is just for hobby, for web-jobs, broadcast or even higher dreams ... who knows ... and the best
would be you could somehow combine equipment through up- or downscaling your extras ...

It sometimes breaks my heart when I see great expensive cameras for "an apple and egg" (?) on ebay -
and nobody wants them anymore because they are out of HD, or got no 16:9, but with perfect 2/3 inch
glass - but of course what to do with them now ?
And then you have all the handheld cameras that are halfway acceptable for this or that - it all just depends
on where you are trying to position yourself - or better said: where you get positioned ... And so on and on.

Pentax is extremely innovative, but they have a lame foot on reality and marketing. RICOH help them !
The idea to join the mirrorless system - adoptable with their good old lenses - was a great idea - and the pride
just not to do the same as Pana-Lumix ... but they neglected to put sound on board (No Go !) They skipped the
viewfinder and it looked terrible as well - A joke in yellow even ... So crazy but courageous, but understandable
it flopped completely ... Pentax is creative and potent but also a funny weird madman between the clever brands,
ready to die any minute ... held back from suicide by some goodwilling believers from a very old photo-sect.

K-01
Of course, if you just shoot video you can have a nice displayviewinder on the display -i f good enough, so that a
small viewfinder can be droped - that is true. But for good photos you will have to use that big displayfinder as
well then. Also the stupid design can be forgotten (in black at least) But to need an extra recorder for sound or
evenHDMI means you can't use this camera without those helpers ... This is in no way acceptable for me.

Many simple cameras can't record good sound with those DSLR mics ... many users moan about hissing noise.
Funny, the K-7 got no problem with that - another big plus because Pentax does some things very right and even
better than others. One has to learn what these cameras can do or not - and I feel I have to start from zero again.

Till yesterday I was madly ready to fight for the good old Sensor-SR - today I watched my second test with the K-7
and I know now this SR has absurd & irreparable problems while panning. It can only be used in stills where your
shakings gets withdrawn quite nice.
What is happening there ? I never heard of this till now - how comes ? When you are panning and end on some
object and do stop there, the movement doesn't stop - it goes backwards - the object then shifts back as if to catch
and neutralize the own opposite late movement. Before each panning the SR has to be put off. Only if you're shure
you just point at a static object, you can ever put it on. I just didn't knew that before, so movie SR will be a great
relieve and Pentax was right to forget about that old SR ... (But it could be a second free choice !)
Vibration Controle for example (VC for Tamron) in the glass doesn't do this wrong and can be used - it works not
that strongly though and can be controlled - same with that software movie shake reduction I think.

I am a learner and even the K-7 is good to train certain things - for example how to prevent automatic gain & noise.

---

Last edited by TomGarn; 11-18-2013 at 03:51 AM.

[PiDicus Rex]

Yep, SR done in the video processing makes Jello-Effect worse. That style of SR worked 'okay,..' on CCD's, but with the Rolling Shutter of CMOS sensors, it just makes things worse.

That end-of-pan wriggle or snap-back has always been an issue, on all forms of SR, though on true optical systems it is far less noticable. You're always better off using a fluid head tripod or a camera rig, then to use the SR.

Yes, MILC - K-mount was genius, but there are some silly mistakes. If the K-01 had decent audio, true HDMI clean feed out, and a high enough data rate, with that massive selection of manual lenses we Pentaxian's get to enjoy at bargain prices, even with the ugly shell, it would have easily been a Canon killer for video production.

At least in this era of 3D printing, changing the outside isn't all that difficult, once the warranty is done.

And the same goes for the K3 as goes for the K-01 and all Pentax cameras, if we campaign and give feedback to what is wrong for end-users, and thanks for what is right, the firmware engineers and product design teams can develop a far better understanding of what we end users want from our cameras, and develop action plans to meet those user needs.

As for what to do with those SD 2/3rd's cameras,.. let the News stringers buy them up.
And the 4:3 sensors? Stick an anamorphic adapter in front of the lens for 16:9 and enjoy the full height resolution and lovely classic bokeh.

[kenyee]

Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=15

Thanks for checking...that is indeed good news. I'm puzzled by the M=1 parameter though. From the examples on the bottom of this page, it should be M=2:
Group of pictures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's too bad it's not closer to 28Mbps but it could be worse...

p.s., jello effect w/ GX1 and 14-42x lens w/ OIS is terrible when panning. I'll have to try it w/o OIS...

[TomGarn]

... if we campaign and give feedback to what is wrong for end-users, and thanks for what is right, the firmware engineers and product design teams can develop a far better understanding of what we end users want from our cameras, and develop action plans to meet those user needs.

I doubt that nice believe of yours completely ...

What needs to be done to make a real good camera can't be a secret for Pentax.
But they just may know better and simply spoil their own cameras ... I wondered
how this could be such a successfull failure-story for years now ...

It may sound crazy ... but instead of competing with those better brands ... could it
be that Pentax' marketing stategy is to get paid for by the others for being ready to
produce worse products ?
Do they - or just some of them - make money with that unbelieveble trick ?

I wonder if that is a clever strategy to make the Pentax managers sort of disfunctional
and simply pay them (secretly) for their wrong decisions and RICOH can't find all of
these guys and prove it to them ?

---

Last edited by TomGarn; 11-16-2013 at 02:36 PM.

[Steve.Ledger]

...wow - a conspiracy theorist

I think it's more likely that Ricoh simply don't want to build a dSLR shaped camcorder.

[osv]

i'm guessing that m=1 refers to the predictions that are made for 8 × 8 submacroblocks(see link I posted at bottom, not wikipedia)... those wiki examples aren't necessarily for h.264(??)

what I've done with the cmos camcorders that are shooting fast pans is to set a fixed shutter speed of 1/60th... yes, it's awfully restrictive, but please try it, let us know if it makes a difference.

[tripodquest]

...wow - a conspiracy theorist

I think it's more likely that Ricoh simply don't want to build a dSLR shaped camcorder.

wow, someone with a religious trust in global corporations. either Ricoh gives in to the pressure of the market, stops existing, or they have a tactic that allows them to stay competitive and making money despite not offering what everyone these days expects (at least) in a (higher-end) dslr. and what were k-5 and k-5ii/s if not dslr-shaped entry-level camcorders? No manual controls for ISO, shutter speed, aperture, anything? I think even $300 camcorders have those controls. The truth is, anyone who does video professionally is going to want to use a manual lens with manual focus and manual aperture control. So setting the aperture on the screen is not professionals. Okay, in the k-5 line you can't set it on the screen. So the video is for professionals? Nope, can't set the shutter speed or ISO manually either. So it's for complete amateurs who just want a p&s video capability without touching a single setting? Then why pretend it's anything else? The k-3 was a step in the right direction but fell miles short of most people's expectations. Those who can be happy with it, I'm happy for you. Just understand this: either Ricoh is going to create a high-end video line like Canon (in the $10,000 range) and you'll NEVER get better video options in a Pentax/Ricoh dslr, or they half-assed it this time and maybe try better next time.

[TomGarn]

In 2001 I bought my first digital Pentax. It was a compact Optio 330. Before that I only
used film in my Olympus OM1 with just two glasses 30 and 100 mm. In the 70's I had
a Voigtländer and a great Nizo Super 8 movie-camera.

In 2005 I did my first photo-job for half a year with an old Nikon D100 (6MP) from 2002
that was still by far good enough for beautiful photo-prints.

Around 2006 I got me Pentax K10D - the first Pentax with a good semiprof. quality. I but
only used it to make money in 2012 till summer 2013 ... still good enough for photos.

This year I got me a K-7 in case the K10 broke again at it's hotshoe-flash-connection, a
repair that once costed more then this old camera. Then I dropped the photo-job to just be
back on video - being a tv-cameramann since 1993 - but my good times for broadcasting
were slowly ending in 2007 and money was always short since then ...Made a new start !

Nikon was very late to join DSLR-business, but they succeeded in regaining their good name
up to the higest professional category ... Pentax started years later with DSLR, but Olympus
made up their mind even later ... and Sony and Fuji also came in to join that run ...
Inbetween Pansonic had a quick and high energetic run to build the better "rebell cam" !

It seems you can't just copy and do as good as the leading heroes. And for some reason
it is OK to be in the running on those last places ... like in motorsport ... for those with a
smaller budget ... with a modell a little slower and with less chances ... And some people
do care for those less fortunate racing drivers and hope for a higher final score this time.

[tripodquest]

It seems you can't just copy and do as good as the leading heroes. And for some reason
it is OK to be in the running on those last places ... like in motorsport ... for those with a
smaller budget ... with a modell a little slower and with less chances ... And some people
do care for those less fortunate racing drivers and hope for a higher final score this time.

but Pentax isn't the "last runner" in every category, their weather sealing is impeccable, out of this world! I know I have to go non-Pentax for video and that annoys me enormously because that means that no matter what "weathersealing" the manufacturer advertises I HAVE TO buy a raincover, an umbrella, whatever to keep my equipment dry if I want to shoot in the rain for more than a minute, and in any case just in case. If it was Pentax equipment, I wouldn't. If Pentax can do so outstandingly in one category, seems unlikely they couldn't do better in others. (and again, for all my complaints about pentax video, I still love Pentax for photography.)

[TomGarn]

... Pentax ... weather sealing is impeccable, out of this world! I know I have to go non-Pentax for video and that annoys me enormously because that means that no matter what "weathersealing" the manufacturer advertises I HAVE TO buy a raincover, an umbrella, whatever to keep my equipment dry if I want to shoot in the rain for more than a minute, and in any case just in case. If it was Pentax equipment, I wouldn't. If Pentax can do so outstandingly in one category, seems unlikely they couldn't do better in others. (and again, for all my complaints about pentax video, I still love Pentax for photography.)

Panasonic's GH3 got a weather sealing as well ... didn't read a comparisson yet on what point it crushes
Don't know about D7100 and 70D - but in fullsize the D800 and 5D III allready are weathersealed.
For me in this small category Canon, Panasonic and Pentax rule - about Oly and Sony I didn't look closer yet.

[PiDicus Rex]

So,... I think we can all agree, the video side needs work.

Does this 'wish-list' of specification changes for the K3 match what everone wants?
Maybe we can do an email writing campaign.

1. Clean Feed 'true HD' HDMI output.
2. Compressed Cinema DNG to ExFat SD/UHS-1 cards ( with options for ProRes and I-frame only h.264@50Mbs )
3. Continuous AF
4. Sensor Shake based SR

[kenyee]

1. I hope they can add raw HD HDMI output, but I'm guessing it needed hardware support in Nikon's cameras, so I'm not holding my breath :-(
3. Will suck unless they add AF to each of the pixel sites like Canon/Olympus did.
4. It'll suck for pans...you're really better off using a stabilizer rig.