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11-17-2013, 03:53 AM   #526
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomGarn Quote
It seems you can't just copy and do as good as the leading heroes. And for some reason
it is OK to be in the running on those last places ... like in motorsport ... for those with a
smaller budget ... with a modell a little slower and with less chances ... And some people
do care for those less fortunate racing drivers and hope for a higher final score this time.
but Pentax isn't the "last runner" in every category, their weather sealing is impeccable, out of this world! I know I have to go non-Pentax for video and that annoys me enormously because that means that no matter what "weathersealing" the manufacturer advertises I HAVE TO buy a raincover, an umbrella, whatever to keep my equipment dry if I want to shoot in the rain for more than a minute, and in any case just in case. If it was Pentax equipment, I wouldn't. If Pentax can do so outstandingly in one category, seems unlikely they couldn't do better in others. (and again, for all my complaints about pentax video, I still love Pentax for photography.)

11-17-2013, 08:55 AM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by tripodquest Quote
... Pentax ... weather sealing is impeccable, out of this world! I know I have to go non-Pentax for video and that annoys me enormously because that means that no matter what "weathersealing" the manufacturer advertises I HAVE TO buy a raincover, an umbrella, whatever to keep my equipment dry if I want to shoot in the rain for more than a minute, and in any case just in case. If it was Pentax equipment, I wouldn't. If Pentax can do so outstandingly in one category, seems unlikely they couldn't do better in others. (and again, for all my complaints about pentax video, I still love Pentax for photography.)
Panasonic's GH3 got a weather sealing as well ... didn't read a comparisson yet on what point it crushes
Don't know about D7100 and 70D - but in fullsize the D800 and 5D III allready are weathersealed.
For me in this small category Canon, Panasonic and Pentax rule - about Oly and Sony I didn't look closer yet.
11-17-2013, 09:02 AM   #528
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So,... I think we can all agree, the video side needs work.

Does this 'wish-list' of specification changes for the K3 match what everone wants?
Maybe we can do an email writing campaign.

1. Clean Feed 'true HD' HDMI output.
2. Compressed Cinema DNG to ExFat SD/UHS-1 cards ( with options for ProRes and I-frame only h.264@50Mbs )
3. Continuous AF
4. Sensor Shake based SR
11-17-2013, 01:08 PM   #529
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1. I hope they can add raw HD HDMI output, but I'm guessing it needed hardware support in Nikon's cameras, so I'm not holding my breath :-(
3. Will suck unless they add AF to each of the pixel sites like Canon/Olympus did.
4. It'll suck for pans...you're really better off using a stabilizer rig.

11-17-2013, 02:15 PM   #530
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
So,... I think we can all agree, the video side needs work.

Does this 'wish-list' of specification changes for the K3 match what everone wants?
Maybe we can do an email writing campaign.

1. Clean Feed 'true HD' HDMI output.
2. Compressed Cinema DNG to ExFat SD/UHS-1 cards ( with options for ProRes and I-frame only h.264@50Mbs )
3. Continuous AF
4. Sensor Shake based SR
We can agree on those points, with 3. and 4. being optional and better left out altogether.
11-17-2013, 03:10 PM   #531
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QuoteOriginally posted by tripodquest Quote
We can agree on those points, with 3. and 4. being optional and better left out altogether.
exactly what I was thinking...

the canon eos c100 body sells for $5,400, no sensor sr on the 35mm-sized sensor, and it records the same avchd video that the k-3 does, only at a slightly higher bitrate of 24Mbps.

it doesn't come with continuous autofocus, that option will apparently set you back another $500?
News Shooter | Canon C100 Upgrade: Dual Pixel CMOS Autofocus Breaks Into C Series Cameras

and who knows how well it will work... you'll seldom see continuous autofocus in a pro shoot, for example, on the 60 minutes tv show.

it would be nice to get a clean uncompressed hdmi feed out of the k-3, but that won't change the fact that the user should be shooting in film-style mode, which most people don't have a clue about.

the biggest video problem that I see with the k-3 is with the user, not the equipment.
11-17-2013, 04:06 PM   #532
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote

the biggest video problem that I see with the k-3 is with the user, not the equipment.
Ok, but for now, i am not selling my sony a77 yet...
The files respond much better to grading than my k01, just to say one thing
But i do hope you're right!

Ps. What is film style modus to you?
11-17-2013, 04:15 PM   #533
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@PiDicus
Because I had a K-x , then K-5 , so I was not interested in another Pentax until K-3 video cheater ( but I forgive Ricoh/Pentax because of excellent photo features from K-3 ) Following your post about K-01 , i did some quick search about it. But I have no idea how K-3 video compare to K-01 video or whether K-3 inherits all video quality or features from K-01 .

@TomGran
Your story about how you were turning around about Pentax and even making money with old K01D is very noticeable !

Hope to hear more voices in here , so Ricoh/Pentax will fulfil our wishes for next firmware .
Whatever you want will be my gains

Could I add the latest wish

5. RAW recording like Black Magic Pocket Camera

11-18-2013, 02:53 AM   #534
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P.S.
@pTom, you meant my K10D of course - because it reads K01D ;-)
Yes, for photos the K10D ist still good enough of course.
No, for videos the K-7 is by far not good enough.

- - -

I have just three wishes for the K-1 (for I doubt any firmware improvement on the K-3)

1. An outside switch for three choices: SR - Movie-SR - Off
2. A bitrate of minimum 50 Mbps
3. Full HD with 50 and 60 fps

X. About continous AF - that is almost unthinkable in a good practical way - but I used it two or three
times with an old semiprofessional DVCam once ... to shoot a fashion runway. Just imagine all the
runway they are coming up to you at the "outpost" then to turn around and dance back to the other far
side of the runway. You get crazy with maual focuspulling then, when you have to shoot with just one camera.
That old plastic Sony shouldermounted 1/3'' camcorder was good enough at that with continous-auto-focussing ;-)

Last edited by TomGarn; 11-18-2013 at 03:13 AM.
11-18-2013, 08:14 AM   #535
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@osv: Sharpness isn't everything. In movies you frequently see them focus wrongly. No one cares. How about things such as dynamic range? Also, many camcorders use CMOS these days.

I think my main problem is that the things I want the K-3 to do... the K-5 had. With inferior hardware. Why can't I have MJPEG when I want it? Sometimes I want h264, sometimes I want MJPEG. MJPEG should be trivial for the CPU. Why can't I have sensor based SR instead of electronic SR? The K-5 and K-7 had it, there is no reason why the K-3 shouldn't. Again, simply give an option. Also if MJPEG is trivial for the CPU, maybe we could get focus peaking when using MJPEG? For h264 + focus peaking the CPU is probably not fast enough...

As for 24p vs 50p... IMHO you can simply get away with more when shooting 24p, and you can move faster. Pan at the same speed at 48/50p, and the footage looks sped up. Both have their place, I suppose.

@kennye: Do you mean lens based IS? The sensor based IS shouldn't work for video, IIRC.

@PiDicus Rex: We have frequently commented in this forum, and I think when their boss made phone calls to users some will have mentioned that we want sensor based SR during video. We have also asked for giving the Fx button the option of starting video recording on the K-5. Did it help? Did they do anything?

@tripodquest: I prefer my K-5 for video over the K-3. IMHO it is the better camera (for video). While there are some welcome improvements on the K-3, they also managed to ruin quite a bit.

@kenyee: I don't have many problems with pans. Haven't looked for any issues, but so far it never disturbed me, if there are indeed problems. And I never shoot video on a tripod. I might also walk while shooting. Scratch that. I often walk while shooting. Works for me (though I'm not shooting videos for professional purposes). What if you slow down from panning gentler? Don't stop abruptly, slow down and come to a stop. Also, if you and tripodquest don't want it... don't use it. Or just shoot any other brand. For me the stabilization in the K-5 is the reason why I bought the camera, and I love the feature every time I shoot video. Otherwise I might be using another brand or the K-30. I have seen enough footage from other DSLRs, and to be honest, I prefer the footage from the K-5.

Video AF I don't need, unless the implementation is really good, as in Sony SLTs or the 70D, but please give me focus peaking. That works great. A CDAF system is pretty much useless to me.
11-18-2013, 08:17 AM   #536
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Points 3 & 4 were a deliberate inclusion for the non-pro users, the rest of us will use a rig or tripod or steadicam.

pTom: "5" is point 2 - the Pocket uses 'Compressed CinemaDNG'
Mind you, with the sample footage now appearing online from the pocket camera,.. I'm very underwhelmed with it, the Black Spot / White Orb issue completely negates having all that detail in the Raw files if the highlights are going to blow out with big spherical blobs.

OSV: are you sure on that bit-rate for the C100? That's lower then what 5D2 files show up as in Quicktime.
And yep, %100 agree, the user can make a good camera seem bad, or an average camera come up fantastic.

TomGarn: Runway - that focus pull is actually pretty easy on full-broadcast rigs, and nearly impossible on most DSLR glass.



'Film Style',... is the full dynamic range of the sensor in a video file, rather being limited to the Rec709 standards. On the camera it looks 'flat' or low-contrast, but when you do your colour grading in post production, it give you much much more latitude.

On Sony F3's, it's called 'S-Log', Blackmagic call it 'film mode' compared to 'video', the 5D2 'Cinestyle' profile is very similar.

'Film Style' shouldn't be confused with 'Raw', although the two do go hand in hand. Raw is much more fine detail from a much higher data rate and 'lossless' recording format, rather then the massive amounts of compression used in h.264 .

On the K-01 I shoot video 'muted' plus a few steps reduced Contrast, and I'll push the Sharpening and High/Low key levels around to bring out the highlights or dark area as needed for a shot.
I can match the Canon profiles by modifying the Contrast and High / Low key in the Natural profile, for those times like tonight, where two of us were shooting Pentax (The other being a K-30) and two being Canon's, plus a Canon camcorder, for a local live music TV show I'm volunteering my Monday nights to.

Last edited by PiDicus Rex; 11-18-2013 at 08:22 AM.
11-18-2013, 08:33 AM   #537
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QuoteQuote:
I think my main problem is that the things I want the K-3 to do... the K-5 had. With inferior hardware. Why can't I have MJPEG when I want it? Sometimes I want h264, sometimes I want MJPEG. MJPEG should be trivial for the CPU. Why can't I have sensor based SR instead of electronic SR? The K-5 and K-7 had it, there is no reason why the K-3 shouldn't. Again, simply give an option. Also if MJPEG is trivial for the CPU, maybe we could get focus peaking when using MJPEG? For h264 + focus peaking the CPU is probably not fast enough...
Yes, it really should be 'user choice'.
And yes, Mjpeg should be a doddle for the current crop of system-on-a-chip processors, but the data rate required to get equal end-user experience out of Mjpeg and h.264 is considerably different. Compressed CinemaDNG is simply a far better choice, I'd be happy to swap between it and h.264.
11-18-2013, 08:36 AM   #538
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
On the K-01 I shoot video 'muted' plus a few steps reduced Contrast, and I'll push the Sharpening and High/Low key levels around to bring out the highlights or dark area as needed for a shot.
I can match the Canon profiles by modifying the Contrast and High / Low key in the Natural profile, for those times like tonight, where two of us were shooting Pentax (The other being a K-30) and two being Canon's, plus a Canon camcorder, for a local live music TV show I'm volunteering my Monday nights to.
hey, that's pretty nifty, doing it that way I have to admit I haven't tried that with my Pentax, I'll give it a try and see what I can do with it. I had been meaning to play around with the contrast and high/low key adjustments but hadn't yet gotten around to it.

grispie: in case PiDicus Rex's description was unclear, the footage looks about like this:
(the "ungraded" video) the BM isn't the best example but I couldn't find anything else quickly on youtube. Try 14 bit raw ungraded for search words if you want to look for more examples. Here's another one:
The BM cameras use CinemaDNG. As far as I know it can't record uncompressed raw video. I don't know if you can record uncompressed raw externally. The color depth of the cinemaDNG in BM is 12 bits.

Last edited by tripodquest; 11-18-2013 at 08:45 AM.
11-18-2013, 09:08 AM   #539
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engineering an mjpeg encoder into the custom silicon that pentax designed, along with writing it's firmware, would have taken up space, and cost more money... that's why you typically only get one codec with a video camera.

c100($3.4k): 24Mbps MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
c300($14k): 8 Bit MPEG-2 *Long GOP* 50 Mbps (CBR) 4:2:2 422P@HL

mpeg2 is inefficient, it used to be used as a delivery/transmission format only, it's only usable for acquisition when you throw a lot of bitrate at it... neither camera records 60p/50p... for the money spent, both of those cameras should have had better recording formats; at the minimum, higher bitrate and 50p/60p.

film style... think primes only, locked down on a tripod, movement is controlled to something like this standard of frames vs. speed, or in the case of pan/tilting: "the number of frames needed for a 45 degree pan would be about 22 frames for a quick turn or 66 frames for a casual turn":
Traditional Film Camera Techniques Lenses and the Vertigo Effect
11-18-2013, 09:34 AM   #540
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
engineering an mjpeg encoder into the custom silicon that pentax designed, along with writing it's firmware, would have taken up space, and cost more money... that's why you typically only get one codec with a video camera.

c100($3.4k): 24Mbps MPEG-4 AVC/H.264
c300($14k): 8 Bit MPEG-2 *Long GOP* 50 Mbps (CBR) 4:2:2 422P@HL

mpeg2 is inefficient, it used to be used as a delivery/transmission format only, it's only usable for acquisition when you throw a lot of bitrate at it... neither camera records 60p/50p... for the money spent, both of those cameras should have had better recording formats; at the minimum, higher bitrate and 50p/60p.

film style... think primes only, locked down on a tripod, movement is controlled to something like this standard of frames vs. speed, or in the case of pan/tilting: "the number of frames needed for a 45 degree pan would be about 22 frames for a quick turn or 66 frames for a casual turn":
Traditional Film Camera Techniques Lenses and the Vertigo Effect
I never even pan that quickly which is good if you're using CMOS because think of the jello, any dslr has horrible jello if you do pans that quick. 22 frames for a 45' turn? i'd call that a whip pan! i prefer slow pans in the range of 120+ frames / 45 degrees (though you rarely end up using the 45 degrees, except if you pan along with the person as they walk down a long straight, then it can go over 90'), I don't find quick pans cinematic at all, except when used very sparingly in certain situations. I have to admit sometimes fast camera movement is just what you need... but not when using CMOS, unless it's in a RED, then it's controlled (so I heard, I haven't used a RED myself. I'm a bit sceptical but I guess they have the hardware to make it work). Otherwise you're better off shooting on film. In any case it depends on what style you prefer. If you like pans that quick though, look into cameras with CCD if you don't mind working around the issue with bright lights in the dark but from what I've seen there are no modern cameras with CCDs except the BM 4K production camera which has a global shutter
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