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11-18-2013, 09:38 AM   #541
osv
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the other way to use the k-3 is with a cheap hand-held steadicam type of rig, and a wide angle lens.

i used to use the canon l1/l2 like that, it's quite a bit heavier than the k-3... with a bit of practice, the results are stunning.

with steadicam, you basically zoom with your feet :-)

what the steadicam does is keep the horizon level, which you can't do with any kind of in-camera stabilization.

see here for examples, that you can largely re-create with a small investment in a steadicam type of rig:


11-18-2013, 09:44 AM   #542
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osv: you also need a crane for some of those shots and the one in the jungle, i don't know what they used for that,...my imagination almost got the better of me, then I realized they must have used a drone? I forgot how common those are now

edit: i noticed you said "largely", I was mostly thinking out loud

Last edited by tripodquest; 11-18-2013 at 09:49 AM.
11-18-2013, 10:45 AM   #543
osv
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ya, you'd have to stand on a crane for some of it! or walk up and down stairs?? guaranteed, tho, i could re-create 98% of those camera moves with a k-3 and a cheap steadicam type of rig.

look at the kill bill sequence, near the beginning of the video... that overhead shot, where the camera tilts down hard, is very difficult to keep steady, because you are fighting the balance weight of the steadicam.

one of my favorite steadicam (and dolly?) shots is at ~1.57 of this chuck berry documentary, it's the credit roll at the end... the mossy dead pool somehow represents aspects of his life/career?:
Chuck Berry Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll Full Movie (Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll) - IMDb

the camera begins from a dead stop, with the operator fighting the typical slight roll in the horizon line that happens when you change motion, goes around the pool and pans all at the same time, which is a nightmare shot to attempt at 24fps, then speeds up the dolly motion into the house, where the exposure suddenly changes.

that was shot in '86, in the mid '90's i couldn't recreate that exposure change, because it takes two hands to steadicam, and i couldn't tether the rig with a wire, it was too sensitive to movement.

with the k-3, you could wifi in, and have an assistant control the exposure, without seeing the picture... or even program an app on your phone, that triggered the exposure as a function of time.

the point of all this drivel, lol, is that if you can't get quality video footage out of the k-3, it's probably not going to be the fault of the camera... imho.
11-18-2013, 05:47 PM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by tripodquest Quote
hey, that's pretty nifty, doing it that way I have to admit I haven't tried that with my Pentax, I'll give it a try and see what I can do with it. I had been meaning to play around with the contrast and high/low key adjustments but hadn't yet gotten around to it.

Well, to be honest, i've been shooting that way ever since i started. A friend of mine told me i had to do it.
But i always used the 'bright' profile where i turned down saturation, contrast and sharpness.
Don't know whether it will make a lot of difference if i turn to the 'muted' profile in terms of grading in premiere...
Will give it a shot. It certainly even looks more dull on the lcd😊
Would there be a 'golden setting by the way?

In any case, my sony a77 file feel much easier to grade on than what i get from the pentax.
Sony uses avchd. I read somewhere through this post (which i have a hard time following since i am far from expert on this&#128542 that the k3 would be using some kind of avchd as well. Will that have a favorable impact on iq and grading possibilities?

11-18-2013, 07:42 PM   #545
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
What if you slow down from panning gentler? Don't stop abruptly, slow down and come to a stop. Also, if you and tripodquest don't want it... don't use it.
I'm a bit puzzled why they didn't leave the option in as well because I probably would have if I were developing it.
Only thing I can think of is maybe they wanted to try using the pseudo AA filter/sensor vibrator for video AA.
11-18-2013, 09:29 PM   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
I'm a bit puzzled why they didn't leave the option in as well because I probably would have if I were developing it.
Only thing I can think of is maybe they wanted to try using the pseudo AA filter/sensor vibrator for video AA.
but from what I read (I might be wrong) the "pseudo AA"/simulated AA doesn't work with video? Maybe someone knows better

QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
Well, to be honest, i've been shooting that way ever since i started. A friend of mine told me i had to do it.
But i always used the 'bright' profile where i turned down saturation, contrast and sharpness.
Don't know whether it will make a lot of difference if i turn to the 'muted' profile in terms of grading in premiere...
Will give it a shot. It certainly even looks more dull on the lcd😊
Would there be a 'golden setting by the way?

In any case, my sony a77 file feel much easier to grade on than what i get from the pentax.
Sony uses avchd. I read somewhere through this post (which i have a hard time following since i am far from expert on this&#128542 that the k3 would be using some kind of avchd as well. Will that have a favorable impact on iq and grading possibilities?
avchd is a camcorder codec, I don't think the k-3 uses that. I don't know what you mean by 'golden setting' just use whatever settings that look like they can get the most detail out across the dynamic range. I don't know how bad it gets with the h.264 codec (isn't that what k-3 uses?) (probably no better than MJPEG) but with MJPEG I expect to see extreme banding. I haven't tried it yet, but it wouldn't make sense if you didn't, in a JPEG no matter how high the quality the information that's in the RAW just isn't there. You don't notice it in a normal JPEG most of the time... But color grading adds several layers of color masks which make any imperfection 100x more visible. So from this: You get this: When you should be getting this:
But I'll give it a try, it will be interesting to see how it turns out. Maybe if you try to avoid strong gradient areas/strong transitions from light to shadow you can largely avoid that.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
ya, you'd have to stand on a crane for some of it! or walk up and down stairs?? guaranteed, tho, i could re-create 98% of those camera moves with a k-3 and a cheap steadicam type of rig.

look at the kill bill sequence, near the beginning of the video... that overhead shot, where the camera tilts down hard, is very difficult to keep steady, because you are fighting the balance weight of the steadicam.
I think with the budget they had for kill bill, they could have had anything from robotics to a chimpanzee to do the tilt, and the crane might have had a holder for the jib where you attach the jib and then the holder that's being controlled by a strong mechanical arm (either mechanical leverage or computer controlled) can do the tilt. I don't know how they did it, I haven't seen it in a long time so I don't remember the shot that well but there are many ways to do these things.
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
one of my favorite steadicam (and dolly?) shots is at ~1.57 of this chuck berry documentary, it's the credit roll at the end... the mossy dead pool somehow represents aspects of his life/career?:
Chuck Berry Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll Full Movie (Hail! Hail! Rock 'n' Roll) - IMDb
the camera begins from a dead stop, with the operator fighting the typical slight roll in the horizon line that happens when you change motion, goes around the pool and pans all at the same time, which is a nightmare shot to attempt at 24fps, then speeds up the dolly motion into the house, where the exposure suddenly changes.
that was shot in '86, in the mid '90's i couldn't recreate that exposure change, because it takes two hands to steadicam, and i couldn't tether the rig with a wire, it was too sensitive to movement.
with the k-3, you could wifi in, and have an assistant control the exposure, without seeing the picture... or even program an app on your phone, that triggered the exposure as a function of time.
the point of all this drivel, lol, is that if you can't get quality video footage out of the k-3, it's probably not going to be the fault of the camera... imho.
You know you can combine camera steadying techniques if you have your marks and do the positioning exactly and cut the footage correctly, you can even blend two dolly shots together, one done with the operator holding the jib and the other one done with the jib being attached to an actually dolly on rails Also if you use light rails that are sturdy but where the segments are easy to separate if necessary and the speed isn't too fast (as it shouldn't be at 24fps) you can have your assistant "undo" the tracks behind the dolly as you go assuming you're shooting so wide or your angle changes in a way that would show the tracks in the picture if they hadn't been moved out of the way. using a dolly on rails (don't think some slide cam type setup, think dollying the camera around on a wheelchair except with a little more finesse ) leaves your hands pretty free you can even push it with your feet so you can pan with your hands free. So yes, you can get steady footage and the camera movements you want out of any camera, but you can't get the dynamic range and presence of detail across the dynamic range and lack of banding after grading in the footage you shoot out of every camera. Just like every sensor has their weak points (vertical lines with bright lines vs jello) so does every camera.

I agree that the choice of codec should be a user choice. It should be trivial to include two codecs and i don't see why not even more, but then I don't know how difficult it is for the processor to support several codecs.
11-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #547
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The kill bill shoot was a Steadicam shoot without cheats or gimmicks. It involved a type of moving catwalk rigged to the ceiling. It isn't money that makes these doors great, though. It is the fact that to Steadicam operators, cinematographers and dYirectors are incredible assists.
11-19-2013, 12:48 AM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by tripodquest Quote
avchd is a camcorder codec, I don't think the k-3 uses that. I don't know what you mean by 'golden setting'
yep, the golden setting... right :-) what was i thinking...

regarding avchd, my sony dslr uses it & i believe i read somewhere in this post that the K3 had some relation to it in one way or another.
As with the 2 pictures you've shown above, i recognize that mostly from my K01. the Sony responds much better to manipulating.

11-19-2013, 12:51 AM   #549
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More on ProRes vs CinemaDNG, plus examples of the BMD-PC's White Orb issue - look at the car at the traffic lights.

https://vimeo.com/79373290#at=0
11-19-2013, 03:00 AM   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
The kill bill shoot was a Steadicam shoot without cheats or gimmicks. It involved a type of moving catwalk rigged to the ceiling. It isn't money that makes these doors great, though. It is the fact that to Steadicam operators, cinematographers and dYirectors are incredible assists.
Thanks for clearing that up I'm not sure if a moving catwalk is any more or less a "gimmick" than a crane or some kind of mechanical arm (i don't mean those robotic fully automatic cranes that can be remote controlled and record every position of the camera to a millisecond accurate timeline, I meant something more simple and mechanical, whether its wooden planks (shoutout, haha) or one of those mechanical telescoping extending things (I don't know what they're called)), they're all just something to go beyond what a human on two legs can do alone. Other than that I agree wholeheartedly, the camera operator is the person who makes or breaks the shot, it's always so much more cinematic to watch good steadicam than robotics and cgi camera gimmicks.
QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
yep, the golden setting... right :-) what was i thinking...

regarding avchd, my sony dslr uses it & i believe i read somewhere in this post that the K3 had some relation to it in one way or another.
As with the 2 pictures you've shown above, i recognize that mostly from my K01. the Sony responds much better to manipulating.
you have to ask someone who knows more about that I don't have the k-3 specs in front of me.
QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
More on ProRes vs CinemaDNG, plus examples of the BMD-PC's White Orb issue - look at the car at the traffic lights.

https://vimeo.com/79373290#at=0
thanks for sharing.

Last edited by tripodquest; 11-19-2013 at 03:10 AM.
11-19-2013, 07:32 AM   #551
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QuoteOriginally posted by tripodquest Quote
but from what I read (I might be wrong) the "pseudo AA"/simulated AA doesn't work with video?
No, it doesn't. But I can see during the design stages when someone might have said "hey, we can use this for video too" and then it turned out so buggy that it wasn't released. But whoever had to do SR by then would have had to do it as digital SR because sensor SR was used by the video AA guy.
Why they couldn't have made it an option in the menus, I have no clue
11-19-2013, 08:50 AM   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote

I think my main problem is that the things I want the K-3 to do... the K-5 had. With inferior hardware. Why can't I have MJPEG when I want it? Sometimes I want h264, sometimes I want MJPEG. MJPEG should be trivial for the CPU. Why can't I have sensor based SR instead of electronic SR? The K-5 and K-7 had it, there is no reason why the K-3 shouldn't. Again, simply give an option. Also if MJPEG is trivial for the CPU, maybe we could get focus peaking when using MJPEG? For h264 + focus peaking the CPU is probably not fast enough...
Well said Sir, those are my exact reasons for being reluctant to 'bite' at the moment: I suspect that I'd still be doing video on my K-5 and having to cart two cameras around! No thanks, Ricoh.
Software shake reduction for consumer/prosumer grade videos (I'm not talking "pro video" here) just makes me cringe. It replaces one bad thing with another. What on earth were Ricoh thinking when deciding to drop sensor SR and MJPEG completely, not even leaving them as as options? I sometimes despair at the logic of major manufacturers and Ricoh are far from the only guilty ones here.

Memo to them all (Microsoft too, are you listening?): When 'upgrading' features involves a significant change in methodology, leave the old method in place as an option whenever humanly possible, at least until the upgraded product has been out there for a year or two so you can get some proper feedback from real live money-paying users in the field!

Perhaps they all think that letting us and reviewers make our own direct comparisons would reveal that their 'upgrades' aren't always upgrades in every respect...

Last edited by Dave L; 11-19-2013 at 09:09 AM.
11-19-2013, 11:36 AM   #553
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dave L Quote
Well said Sir, those are my exact reasons for being reluctant to 'bite' at the moment: I suspect that I'd still be doing video on my K-5 and having to cart two cameras around! No thanks, Ricoh.
Software shake reduction for consumer/prosumer grade videos (I'm not talking "pro video" here) just makes me cringe. It replaces one bad thing with another. What on earth were Ricoh thinking when deciding to drop sensor SR and MJPEG completely, not even leaving them as as options? I sometimes despair at the logic of major manufacturers and Ricoh are far from the only guilty ones here.

Memo to them all (Microsoft too, are you listening?): When 'upgrading' features involves a significant change in methodology, leave the old method in place as an option whenever humanly possible, at least until the upgraded product has been out there for a year or two so you can get some proper feedback from real live money-paying users in the field!

Perhaps they all think that letting us and reviewers make our own direct comparisons would reveal that their 'upgrades' aren't always upgrades in every respect...
Can someone PLEASE just compare the jello effect in the new K-3 versus the K-01?????
Thanks.
11-19-2013, 03:02 PM   #554
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdj92807 Quote
Can someone PLEASE just compare the jello effect in the new K-3 versus the K-01?????
Thanks.
I agree, just a short sequence of some trees and background with a 50mm, not a wideangle, handheld, movie SR on and filmed twice. once with the K01 and once with the K3. that is the only way to see whether it is the same or whether it got any better. All other is speculation.
thks to the one that can do this!
11-19-2013, 07:13 PM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
TomGarn: Runway - that focus pull is actually pretty easy on full-broadcast rigs, and nearly impossible on most DSLR glass.
Yes, but not if you are zooming in - and have a weak remote-controle different to those
at professional cameras ... But still you will have extreme problems if you follow those
modells to the other far side of the room while zooming in to enlarge them in the distance.
even with a focus-remote-controle on your other hand - if it's a long fashion runway.

Or you just embrace the camera - forget about the tripod-handles and zoom with right hand
and pull focus with the left hand .... haha ... But even with broadcast-cameras I just did this
in rare situations only - but I noticed some lovers even seem to like that position and don't
even install a handle on their tripods...
Here, a good autofocus could really save my life because in those one-camera-only situations
you can't just skip away - and come back later ... for you have to be ON all the time.

Cameramen also don't like auto-white-balance - but sometimes, iif you move in and out and don't
want to switch between unknown memory-positions, this automatic can help too (in crazy times)
But all these things are just Extra-Bonus and don't meant to be put on action all the time ... yes.

Sorry I have to let go of my SR now too - on my Pentax. With Canon and that other Tamron VC I
can leave it ON to stabilize shaky situations to some degree quite well, and I am thankful for that
calmness in those run and shoot takes in quick and dirty documentaries (for stinking money)

Last edited by TomGarn; 11-19-2013 at 09:26 PM.
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